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Wickerbottom refresh thoughts.


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I think its a shame how much time was wasted over the grimoire and r.rituals during the beta and how little attention the rest of her stuff got because of that. 

whats the point of 11 new books if ~half of them are varying degrees of useless/ too underwhelming to bother with?  

Her most showy feat pre refresh was probably tentacle trapping BQ which has been nerfed considerably in several ways. Starting with needing a much more expensive station to unlock (some worlds simply dont have enough reeds for the bookcase and the required # of books after 1 harvest) and spawning nightmares when reading while insane. 
Someone correct me if im wrong cuz i genuinely want to know whats up but it also feels like even the density of the tentacles have been stealth nerfed. No matter how many times i read post refresh my traps remain very sparse and it takes a lot longer for it to kill BQ.
Sometimes the book will now refuse to even cast with wicker saying theres no room for the tentacles to emerge while there are huge and obvious gaps all over the place.. 

the most worthwhile addition is undoubtably the bookcase’s ability to restore books and Rain Rituals. And even then it feels like the restoration is a double edged sword..

yes u can restore ur tentacle books but ur also gonna need a lot more reads than before to kill BQ now.

yes u can restore horticulture books but ur also gonna need to grow a lot more sanity food if u dont want to be fighting nightmares constantly. 

She very much feels like old wolfgang 2.0 in this regard but instead of hunger its sanity food. Ppl will say she has hort to make up for it but so did Wolfgang with his double damage making it much faster to gather food from mobs and his massive food consumption was still deemed unfit for the game. And tilling, sowing, reading, harvesting, cooking is a very long winded chore. The saving grace for wicker’s new sanity gluttony r banana bushes and banana shakes.. u just have to toil and suffer until u get 15 bushes. 

The other shiny fun toy of the refresh was initially Apiculture but that was eventually nerfed very hard too. Was going from infinite bees to 16 not enough of a nerf? Why was the # of bees per read reduced as well? Please dont say it was in order to neatly match the new cap. Getting 4 flimsy 180 hp followers from each book away from the bookcase at the cost of 66 sanity feels so bad. Not only do u need to carry way too many copies of it on u if u want to replenish bees on foot but u also need a huge amount of sanity food, genuinely how is this different from wolf chugging hunger food?
3 bees per cast felt sooo much better.

In general books with only 3 uses feel so bad with the addition of the bookcase. cuz its always effectively 2 uses..

I could go on but this post is already too long and ive made several smaller posts in the suggestions forums already on the other underwhelming stuff that i wont repeat here. 

I hope some adjustments can still be made to her underwhelming stuff. She needs a bunch of small tweaks across the board i think. 

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Personally, I liked the rework. I'm not a hardcore amazing don't starve player but I'm currently playing her. And the best part is it feels great. With my bookcase I feel like I'm storing spells that I use when needed. I got fairly lucky with world gen so there are plenty of cactus for me to forage. While I think some of her books could use some more love. I enjoy her play style of being someone who can manipulate the world at the cost of her mental status...

I think the temperature book should refreeze ice glaciers as another side quirk. 

The spider Book I've yet to find a use for but maybe it could either summon a spider ally as well or give you DMG resistance while on the web ( the web protects you)

 

But overall I love the rework and makes me actually like playing wicker now :)

 

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Firstly, sorry for the hypocrisy about meters (maybe i said some bad things about meters in the past), butni will give my opinion.

A new meter would be good if it doesnt remove the ability to read books using sanity, like, wicker could have a meter that increases if her sanity is high or it would stay still if her sanity is low. And if she reads a book, it will cost points in the new meter instead of sanity, example, she has 200 points of reading in the meter, then she reads on tentacles, instead of consuming 50 sanity, it will consume 25 points of reading. if the meter is at 0, then it will cost sanity (like it does currently).

It will preserve the new aspect of spawning nightmare creatures at low sanity (that is annoying but somehow fair, and it will give her a chance to use her books more often with out the penalty)

And she will still need to be sane if she wants the meter to goes up.

Does it make sense?

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I think On Tentacles should make 1 more tentacle per read, Applied Apiculture or whatever the bee book is called should spawn 1 more bee per read (and honestly 18 bees instead of 16 would barely bee different so that could also bee changed), and something should bee done to make the bees not lag beehind and have their ai bee disabled (right now it feels like you can only read the book at whatever you want to fight and then struggle to kill the followers who want to stay a set distance from you). It would also bee cool if you could inspire the bees like Bee Queen does.

P.S. What are your guys' thoughts on Wickerbottom's books not breaking at 0% and instead she can't read it any more? I think it's a bit silly how so many of her books are effectively 2 uses, and since Wolfgang deleting easy to get hunger is a problem I would think a careless Wickerbottom accidentally deleting things like iridescent gems would be a problem.

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Bookcase: it is foolish to make books have unlimited durability

The infinite durability of the book makes the content of the book mediocre

The feeling of repeatedly using hoes, sowing seeds, reading books and cooking is too bad

Klei should let players go out for adventure instead of staying beside the bookcase all the time

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I like the Wickerbottom refresh. oh yeah it's a REFRESH not a rework, yknow like how it was addressed the whole time?
anyway sorry, I like it a lot. I know a ton of people adore the WX refresh but, to me it felt like there were things that were neat and I wanted to use but were too costly to use (slot resctrictions). Completely negating the need for light felt insanely overpowered to me.

I really like how Wicker has to focus even more on sanity managment, it is a real legitimate downside. Yea some things could use some reworking (why are there default and expanded versions of book?; why 2 bees with 3 uses, 6 bees is so much!; Don't all books use 50 sanity?, if they dont, holy crap why don't they?; Can they make the spoiled food downside affect yellow instead of only red. People ate red level freshness foods?) While I just love Wormwood to death and back, I am playing Wicker occasionally with my friend who is Wanda, I am having a good time honestly. Lux Aterna is an amazing book for crop growing, i'll tell you that much.

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13 hours ago, dois raios said:

A new meter would be good if it doesnt remove the ability to read books using sanity, like, wicker could have a meter that increases if her sanity is high or it would stay still if her sanity is low.

Does it make sense?

Yeah it does! Having a free buffer that regenerates on its own before sanity is used would make occasional reading much less taxing. However i think a huge change like that is most likely out of the question unfortunately. 

Making each read of the more spammy books more effective and reducing the sanity cost of the more underwhelming books would lessen the sanity tax too imo  and would only require small number tweaks. 

11 hours ago, Cheggf said:

I think On Tentacles should make 1 more tentacle per read, Applied Apiculture or whatever the bee book is called should spawn 1 more bee per read (and honestly 18 bees instead of 16 would barely bee different so that could also bee changed),

Yeah exactly, changes like this are needed i think. The effectiveness needs to be increased so u need less reads in total. And/or the stealth nerf on the tentacle book needs to be reverted. 

11 hours ago, Cheggf said:

What are your guys' thoughts on Wickerbottom's books not breaking at 0% and instead she can't read it any more? I think it's a bit silly how so many of her books are effectively 2 uses,

currently u can read a book even when it technically doesnt have enough durability like u can read On Tentacles at 5% even though it normally takes 20%. Making the books unbreakable would mean u could endlessly cast stuff at 2%. Not for or against just pointing that out. 

And yes i agree 3 use books feel so bad.. i dont understand why all books didnt get 5 uses with recipe adjustments where needed. 

12 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

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Yeah but the book has been made practically unusable without the bookcase for reasons i already mentioned above.

Without the restoration u need more individual books than pre refresh: more reeds, more spots, more sanity spent and at the end ud lose it all. 

ud be giving up the best feature of the refresh while putting up with every nerf and new downside which factor in immensely when setting up a trap. 

Setting up the post refresh tent trap would go from worse but still manageable to downright horrible in every conceivable way without using the bookcase.

but i wouldnt have to explain that to someone who has actually done it. 

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12 hours ago, Ohan said:

Her most showy feat pre refresh was probably tentacle trapping BQ which has been nerfed considerably in several ways. Starting with needing a much more expensive station to unlock

Everything encyclopedia works, also with the correct strategy you only need 3 on tentacles to kill bq I think. so that would be 24 papyrus needed for it, since the starting two can be used for encyclopedia.

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7 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

Everything encyclopedia works, also with the correct strategy you only need 3 on tentacles to kill bq I think.

U mind enlightening us on the correct strategy then? 

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Kinda torn on her refresh, feels underwhelming for sure but a couple of the books are strong enough to make me play her ( i think we all know which ones lol)

Hoping there will eventually be some love for a couple of the useless books but I won't hold my breath. End is Nigh is literally just a recipe for Pyrokinetics and I still have not found a use for Arachnophobia. Encyclopedia and Angler Survival Guide I havent used and don't think i ever will tbh.

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I literally just wanted the end is neigh to do something cool and because of her interaction with Kitcoons In Year of the Catcoon & her own animated short featuring a cat I fully and 100% expected her to get some kind of benefit from cats- maybe she Gains sanity from befriending Catcoons/finding Kitcoons- heck if I know!! I just wanted the rework to do a little uhh.. more?

Now let me explain: Wolfgang’s rework was given the “do a little more” Treatment by being able to do smaller tasks that made him feel powerful like, rowing faster or yanking up sail masts and pulling up anchors faster. Outside of the Get buff smash stuff core of his refresh.

Wicker on the other hand is just these books.. and I don’t like it.

Probably my 2nd least favorite refresh TBH- but at least she isn’t completely ruined so there’s that I guess..

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12 hours ago, Dextops said:

the rework was extremely disappointing and probably one of my least favourite reworks despite it being ok in my opinion at first.

Feels more like a mod than a rework truly

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On tentacle's stealth nerf on density sounds really bad. And I also think 2 grumble bees per read are a bit underwhelming. Feels like the past Webber rework beta, back then the amount of spiders Webber could be befriended using 1 meat was nerfed from 3 to 2, similar to the apiculture book. But what now? It was rollbacked to 3 and it's still not op yet fun to play.

11 hours ago, Cheggf said:

P.S. What are your guys' thoughts on Wickerbottom's books not breaking at 0% and instead she can't read it any more? I think it's a bit silly how so many of her books are effectively 2 uses, and since Wolfgang deleting easy to get hunger is a problem I would think a careless Wickerbottom accidentally deleting things like iridescent gems would be a problem.

And hey, that's what exactly I suggest back in the beta! I also strongly agree that it would be felt much more stable if the books don't be destroyed at 0% durability. But if so the books cannot be read until it restore full 1 use (for example 20% durability for On Tentacles) to prevent players read a book every 30 seconds consuming only 1% durability..

 

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I like Wickerbottom refresh and it actually made me start to playing as her again.

I really like one book for early game that is usually not mentioned: everything encyclopedia. While concept might seem not really strong concidering Wickerbottom already has -1 tier of required prototype station buff, it adds that early game flexibility and diversity I was looking for. It allows to do the following things:

Spoiler

 

- prototype (without even science machine needed) on the go lantern, miner hat, moggles. In case 2 of the latter not only EE saves resources (if used wisely, and later paired with bookcase), but also inventory space is freed as soon as one obtains all ingredients, contrary to arriving at prototype station before refresh, which means she can do more tasks before she needs to return to base to drop loot, i.e. she multitasks much better than pre-refresh iteration of hers. For the record, miner hat ingredients take up to 3 extra inventory slots and moggles ingredients take up to 5. Even in case lantern there are situations when EE is preferable to use than to place science machine.

- prototype saddles on the go and start riding beefalo sooner on average. This is especially useful in case glossammer saddle because ingredients spoil in addition to taking up a lot of valuable early game inventory space (up to 4 slots), and starting taming process earlier might be the difference between taming and not taming beefalo until Deerclops/spring (more relevant to public servers since in solo worlds around day 6-7 it's very possible to consistently start riding beefalo on glossammer saddle).

- prototype magic things (ice staff, pan flute, shadow manipulator, etc.) without need to build prestihatitator ever. I found it very useful to rush bookcase, as well as kill Bee Queen with panflutes relatively early.

- prototype that 1st ham bat right before battle rather than in advance. Examples of use: walling up with statues moonstone around day 30 while waiting for Deerclops to arrive, and be nearby to do mooncaller event on consecutive night (otherwise I would need to craft ham bat at day 28-29 in case I don't know moonstone location in particular world, which would result in longer fight with DC and, since I don't like to tank him, potentially being unable to get moon caller staff or multiple of them). Another example: prototyping ham bat in clockwork biomes contrary to doing it at surface, which in my case results in about 2 days of freshness difference.

- prototyping things requiring think tank without think tank, such as boat. For boat base when one wants multiple specialized structures (normal boat, tin fishing bins, anchor, maybe even steering wheel, sail, lightning conductor and rudder kit) it's cheaper in terms of sanity to just put think tank, but if all one wants is boat and tin fishing bin, then EE helps to speed up sailing session. One could want to sail for monkey tails, banana bushes and moon moth wings early as Wickerbottom, and I like presence of such opportunity and synergy of rework with new content.

- being able to prototype shadow manipulator-tier items at science machine. While for multiple crafts it would be cheaper in terms of sanity (maybe in terms of resources as well, depending on kind of abundant resources) to just put shadow manipulator, for quick dark sword or bat bat for Wormwood teammate it's very useful.

Plus sharing buff with other players is also a thing.

 

Now to the other features of rework. 

I like bookcase on land and on boat. For things like tentacle traps it actually saves reeds needed to create trap(s) because books regenerate durability, which frees Wickerbottom from reed picking slavery and eleminates huge part of dependance on worldgen, which was one of the major things why I stopped playing Wickerbottom long ago (I used to base in/near swamp before I started to play DST, but absence of mushrooms took a lot of this location's appeal to me, so basing near swamp became burden rather than choice unless there are other useful biomes such as deserts).

15 hours ago, Ohan said:

(some worlds simply dont have enough reeds for the bookcase and the required # of books after 1 harvest)

^ regarding this, the worlds that don't have enough reeds for needed number of books would actually benefit from bookcase - within certain interval of available reeds and with certain goals, - because even though initial number of books crafted will be reduced by 2, durability regeneration will make up for it, especially in case BQ rush.

Spoiler

 

I can't comment on density of tentacles, as I didn't like to use myself tentacle traps in general, but in terms of books durability pre-rework trap required around 5 books (at least those are my observations of other people's rushes). That means that if pre-rework world had much less than 40 reeds (32 technically since Wicker starts with 2 papyrus), one would need to wait 3 days for reeds to regrow; now though initial 5 books turn into initial 3 with bookcase, which is 12 readings initially (with 20% of durability left on each book) and around 12 that player would need to wait for. Bookcase regenerates 16-32% of books durability per day depending on proximity to Wickerbottom; remaining 12 readings would need to be made with 3 books, which would require 80% of durability per book (12*20%/3=80%); 80% durability is actually 20% initial + 60% of regenerated, which means that with Wickerbottom within 3 tile range one would need to wait about 2 days before all readings could be done and books would be left at very low but greater than 0 percentage of durability. 2 days are less then 3, so player would waste time only if Wickerbottom was away from bookcase most of the time (then one would require to wait around 4 days, which is greater then 3).

Lets see what would happen if we had world that had even less reeds for initial number of books. Lets compare different strategies when world has 24 reeds instead of 32 (in previous example). Obviously one would not be able to set up tentacle trap after 1 reeds harvest even if all books were consumed. So it's 4 books initially and 1 after 3 days if one breaks them (because Wicker starts with 2 papyrus), and 2 books + bookcase initially and maybe some more after 3 days harvest. In bookcase situation, 2 books will give 8 initial readings, both books will remain at 20% durability, and after 3 days each book will regenerate 48-96% of durability + regrown reeds would be available; that would mean 6-10 (3-5 per book (>60%...>100%)) extra readings would be available, so total 14-18 readings (compared to 20 if they broke) would be made and extra 8 reeds picked (compared to 8 with book breaking) would yield 5 more readings if one waits 30 seconds. So in terms of reeds consumption it's a tie between both strategies. After trap setup though books in bookcase would regenerate durability eventually, thus speeding up setup of other traps and freeing world's reeds for other books: in this particular case 2 more books can be made right after 2nd harvest of world's reeds (16 reeds would remain to be picked) and same 16 reeds would be available in case one broke books. On the other hand, while breaking books allowed to spend most of the time during those 3 days on other things, bookcase require doing things near it that whole period of 3 days.

With further decrease of initially available amount of reeds the following happens: bookcase consumes even larger part of available papyrus leaving less and less of it for books, and thus decreasing it's own power because it regenerates durability per book, but becoming even more beneficial longterm. Right? It would be so if not for applied silviculture. Book consumes 2 papyrus as all other books do, but as long as world has 2 closely located reed plants player will break even in terms of reeds (but loose a lot of sanity) by casting it without breaking. If there are 4 closely located reeds then each extra silviculture book would give materials for 1 more other book. So if world happens to have little reeds, but some of them are close, one could "patch" shortage with extra silviculture books, which would also regain durability in bookcase and remain useful later.

 

That being said, if world has that little reeds (<=24) I would rush monkey island for at least 10 monkey tails for longterm world and regenerate world if the only goal was BQ rush. Particularly, I would start to tame beefalo to explore world faster, then depending on how much reeds I would be able to harvest I would decide whether to spend time setting up tentacle trap, to rush monkey island or to postpone fight and wait for other 1 or 2 reeds harvests while focusing on other things. But having that little reeds on normal settings is extremely rare, to me it happened last weeked on public server when main swamp was merged with pig village swamp (again, rare case) and thus world had 18 reeds not counting lunar island and monkey tails. Wickerbottom has decent synergy with sailing though, so it wasn't a problem and I brought things from monkey and Pearl's island for everyone to use.

So far other books I had fun to use are lunar grimoire (I rushed archives activation and then took all 3 opals), rain rituals, angler's survival guide and good old sleepytime stories. Turns out rain rituals are not that useful on public server and arguably are worse accidental griefing then lunar grimoire just because people during summer have to deal with both heat and moisture (or moisture and insanity) even though absence of sandstorm/wildfires is a benefit. Turns out, it's easier to bring pigs back from extinction with moonstone event and craft desert goggles + casting polar light at common base then to... cast rain, bring those pigs back from extinction and craft umbrellas and helmets/ leave pigs nonexistent and craft rain hats + thermal stones as alternative, think about something to both cool people and to drop wetness... and even with polar lights and Dfly furnace it's still inconvenient, especially for people who prefer thermal stones + polar lights or floral shirts + chilling amulets. Eyebrellas are good and all, but problem with that on pub is that people can join in spring thus experiencing winter after summer, so no eyebrellas for them unless someone farms in advance, a lot and without any benefit for themselves. Stopping frog rains and unwanted rain during bossfight (or starting it on purpose of fighting with morning star/voltgoat jelly) was fun though.

I didn't have a chance to try it yet, but pyrokinetics explained may be quite good for extended summer sailing as a sidegrade for flingomatic. On one hand, it extinguishes fires without the need to stop boat and restock on resources (if bookcase is on the boat), plus doesn't need any space on the boat dedicated to it contrary to flingomatic; on the other hand, ice flingomatic functions automatically, which is relevant when player fights something and can't immediately use book (Malbatross, pirate raids) or tries to catch fish and doesn't want to loose lure/float. It's also luxury fun sidegrade (doesn't cool player, but is rechargable for free after initial setup), especially if one missed opportunity to fight moose/goose (by joining on the last days of spring or in summer, or playing worlds with non-default settings).

I also enjoyed the fact that I needed to change my diet/priorities and most of sanity problems weren't solved with tam'o'shanter, in other cases experience actual downside of fighting 2 terrorbeaks on regular basis and much more frequently then as most of other characters. I like that I needed to think about all possible bits of sanity to help other player (who choose Wanda) in one of the play sessions to fight Bee Queen by spamming sleepytime stories (all panflutes were stolen, and there was tentacles and it's spots shortage of all things, so no trap for people to use any time soon). People claim that bananas are the only saviours for Wickerbottoms, but even before that there are numerous sanity options from kelp and jerky to cacti, jelly salad and BQC + hord of monsters/obelisk.

I can't comment on overcoming arachnophobia yet, but the latter one would be much more versatile if it could slow down flying mobs as well, so unique strategy for BQ could be used, as well as for other flying and fast bosses, but oh well.

What I really don't like is the fact that everything ecyclopedia disables all sanity buffs for prototyping stuff as long as it's casted, even if buff is not consumed. To make it clear, I'll give an example: I'm reading EE before going to the ruins to craft moggles as soon as I'll kill debth worm, buff stays on me; I'm crafting at science machine saddle, miner hat and piggyback and do not consume buff; but I don't gain any sanity for prototyping mentioned 3 things even though I didn't use buff. There is workaround in that particular case (reading EE right before going to the caves), but it's very annoying thing that I hope is a bug rather than a feature. Or even worse example: I read book to craft tree jam as soon as I find figs, and then craft all things near think tank (whole boat base) without gaining any sanity before sailing and without consuming this buff.

Spoiler

 

Also:

15 hours ago, Ohan said:

Getting 4 flimsy 180 hp followers from each book away from the bookcase at the cost of 66 sanity feels so bad

 

15 hours ago, Ohan said:

3 bees per cast felt sooo much better.

How is it better to get less bees on cast? By the way, it consumes 33 sanity per cast and spawns 2 bees, which seems perfectly manageble with tam'o'shanter, celestial crown or just some (bundled) food for daily eating that restores more sanity than meaty stew (like jerky, or dried kelp + whatever one usually eats to restore other stats). Moreover, with high number of bees they won't be able to attack all at once, they are not splumonkeys after all and take up space. To be fair, book is quite cheap and 16 bees are more that enough with 2 book uses to replenish it on the go as long as player fights alongside bees and doesn't expect them to do all the work. Just for the sake of arguement I tested 16 grumble bees against moose/goose, and even though I didn't land a single hit 11 of them survived after killing moose/goose. Using them against bosses with AoE attack would be pointless with any amount of grumble bees per use and maximum grumble bees amount as well. book itself is fairly cheap as well, and that is one book I would consider of breaking and recrafting. But not a lot of time passes since rework for me to explore potential of apicultural notes, so I'll hold other of my thoughts until I'll think I have enough experience and situations diversity with it.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

How is it better to get less bees on cast?

Before u lecture someone u should make sure u understand what ur responding to. Why would i suggest getting less bees if thats what im complaining about?

How did that make enough sense to you for you to type out an essay in response? 

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6 hours ago, Ohan said:

How did that make enough sense to you for you to type out an essay in response?

My respond was long because I responded to the arguement about on tentacles book, as well as put my own thoughts about rework as many other people did here (nobody said that only your thoughts should be included in thread with name "Whickerbottom refresh thoughts").

6 hours ago, Ohan said:

Before u lecture someone u should make sure u understand what ur responding to

Putting your salt aside, I indeed didn't get your point, which is why I asked "how is it better to get less bees on cast". I also decided to double-check your information and found out it wasn't up to date; that's why I wrote how much sanity it costs per use and how much bees it spawns. I didn't mean to lecture you, just discuss since I'm playing Wickerbottom a lot after rework and enjoy experience so far.

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So I think a confident step in the right direction is to reduce the cost of papyrus to 3 reeds instead of four. I unfortunately clear all of the reeds from the swamp as soon as I encounter it. Not because Im trying to grief Wicker's on pubs, but because as Wormwood I need them to make night armor. 

It would not only be a big buff to Wicker and ease up on reed hoarding, but also be a boon to the console versions with smaller swamps.

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