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[Suggestion] Enemies health or boss scaling according to number players


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I would rather bosses each have their own build in mechanics that makes boss fight harder with more players. A great example of this in DST is the Klaus fight. From my experience fighting Klaus has always been a joy as the more people who join the fight the more people he targets with his spells which can quickly make for a fun/chaotic battlefield if managed poorly. Not only that as Klaus turns to attack players his deer move with him allowing for his deer to get some hits on careless players. I would love to see more boss fights be passively harder with more players in an unforced way, such as BQ spawning more Grumble Bees or bosses gaining new attacks!

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11 hours ago, Cassielu said:

I think people have been asking for it for... probably six years.

It's best not to count on it.

Because literally every single time it gets suggested a bunch of people give a bunch of good reasons not to add it. 

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Considering that this desire comes from the idea of making the game easier on the bosses, I don't see this as a good idea. Overall, the vast majority of players have already learned how to deal with 27500 or 99999 health bosses, so lowering that for them at this point in the game would be pretty boring.

I think this could have worked, but many years ago.

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3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Because literally every single time it gets suggested a bunch of people give a bunch of good reasons not to add it. 

No, literally every single time it gets suggested, a bunch of people give a bunch of reasons they think are good that often presume things about an implementation that don't need to be true. And/or they just say "I think it's fine as it is, so deal with it".

1 hour ago, Castiliano said:

Considering that this desire comes from the idea of making the game easier on the bosses, I don't see this as a good idea. Overall, the vast majority of players have already learned how to deal with 27500 or 99999 health bosses, so lowering that for them at this point in the game would be pretty boring.

I think this could have worked, but many years ago.

Not only does this reasoning not make sense, but its assumption is probably not true, either. The vast majority of players probably don't bother with Bee Queen or Toadstool because they are fairly casual, as the majority of a game's audience generally is. If they have, they've probably done it in overwhelming numbers that make those HP pools moot, which is not the way everyone does or wants to experience the game.

Also, if you've already "learned how to deal with" HP sponges, how would lower HP affect your enjoyment at all? Surely if you've got it down pat, you're not having this thrilling experience that would be completely destroyed if it just didn't last quite as long?

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7 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

No, literally every single time it gets suggested, a bunch of people give a bunch of reasons they think are good that often presume things about an implementation that don't need to be true. And/or they just say "I think it's fine as it is, so deal with it".

So tell me how to implement it without it counterintuitively making fights harder with more players, without it making people feel like certain others aren't pitching in enough and should be kicked to make the fight easier, without it making the bosses require an inconsistent amount of time to fight, without it making no sense because the bosses just randomly gain durability for no reason, without it making the fights way too short for solo players (I always see people complain that solo fights taking like 5 minutes is too long, but fighting the bosses solo is basically the only way to actually fight them), and is clearly shown to the players so they understand.

The only thing I'm presuming is that more players = hitting the boss more & less players = hitting the boss less, which is the whole frickin idea. If you think the boss has too much health pick someone like Wolfgang, eat Warly dishes, make catapults, use better weapons, etc. If you think the boss has too little health pick Wes or use worse weapons. You can already scale the boss without the issues inherent to your suggestion. 

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10 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

No, literally every single time it gets suggested, a bunch of people give a bunch of reasons they think are good that often presume things about an implementation that don't need to be true. And/or they just say "I think it's fine as it is, so deal with it".

Not only does this reasoning not make sense, but its assumption is probably not true, either. The vast majority of players probably don't bother with Bee Queen or Toadstool because they are fairly casual, as the majority of a game's audience generally is. If they have, they've probably done it in overwhelming numbers that make those HP pools moot, which is not the way everyone does or wants to experience the game.

Also, if you've already "learned how to deal with" HP sponges, how would lower HP affect your enjoyment at all? Surely if you've got it down pat, you're not having this thrilling experience that would be completely destroyed if it just didn't last quite as long?

speaking for me, maybe would be boring as playing don't starve solo, because now the bosses there are really easy and boring with their "low" HP

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On 7/24/2022 at 10:47 PM, Owlrust said:

No thanks. I wouldn't want to fight a Dragonfly with 45,000 health by myself just because there's some people on the other side of the map. Even if it applied to only those currently in the fight, how would that work? Just being in the area? What if someone just walked in, would the boss just get an automatic health increase?

It's a good idea on paper, and I understand why people want it, but unfortunately I've never seen an idea on how to implement it that wouldn't make it complete hell to deal with.

You're making it overcomplicated for nothing. I believe the simplest implementation would be the boss health scales up for every different player hitting it

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I don't see the point in the health scaling unless having it as a side parameter for those who can't handle the amounts of hp. Then again, you could use gunpowder and other methods to kill the bosses. I don't see it as a problem, if you can't beat a boss with many bunnymen, 2x damage modifier characters, or just exploding the bosses with gunpowder - there's something clearly wrong with your playstyle. 

I've made a good chunk of bunnymen at bee queen so I could grind her any time I want and a mini arena to kite the bees. I can use 1 stack of gunpowder on fuelweaver to kill it quickly once it hits it's second phase. I can use bunnymen to deal with dragonfly since I've set them up at bee queen. You can block Toadstool's tree spawning by blocking them with walls. There's many methods and ways to kill the bosses quick. Winona does a quick job of many efficiently enough. Pick up your weapon of choice and just fight.

If we get the bosses babified there won't be as much conquest of killing an epic monster. There's no thrill in being a coward.

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6 hours ago, b l a n k said:

the simplest implementation would be the boss health scales up for every different player hitting it

So the bosses health starts off normal and increases when hit from multiple sources? How many hits does it take to change its health? Sounds like a very easy way to grief by hitting once and running away.

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On 7/25/2022 at 6:47 AM, Owlrust said:

No thanks. I wouldn't want to fight a Dragonfly with 45,000 health by myself just because there's some people on the other side of the map. Even if it applied to only those currently in the fight, how would that work? Just being in the area? What if someone just walked in, would the boss just get an automatic health increase?

It's a good idea on paper, and I understand why people want it, but unfortunately I've never seen an idea on how to implement it that wouldn't make it complete hell to deal with.

Bump. Yeah, no thanks. They did this in terraria on servers and it basically just manured the bed. You have servers on terraria that were most popular having the most co-current players on at one time each doing their own thing and when someone summoned a moon lord, some person chopping trees, mining or swimming in the ocean would count for a HP boost for moonlord all the while not even being involved in a fight. Nah, boss scaling can go F-O. Don't want it, Don't need it. I believe everyone can do anything in this game if practice is exercised. 

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On 7/25/2022 at 1:10 PM, Cheggf said:

So tell me how to implement it without it counterintuitively making fights harder with more players

Don't scale past a certain number of players? Don't scale linearly? Don't worry about it and just make more difficult kills more rewarding?

On 7/25/2022 at 1:10 PM, Cheggf said:

without it making people feel like certain others aren't pitching in enough and should be kicked to make the fight easier

What boss battle is going to last long enough for that? What kind of a group is going to be that crappy? How bad would you have to be for that to be apparent? And you don't generally seem that concerned with mitigating social problems that can be solved with just controlling who you're playing with, so why should I?

On 7/25/2022 at 1:10 PM, Cheggf said:

without it making the bosses require an inconsistent amount of time to fight

Not gonna solve a non-problem. Who cares if it's not consistent? To what degree would it even be inconsistent? I can't imagine who would care about the fight not taking the exact same amount of time except people who are probably playing alone anyway.

On 7/25/2022 at 1:10 PM, Cheggf said:

without it making no sense because the bosses just randomly gain durability for no reason

Also a non-issue. It's a video game. Plenty of things happen that don't make any sense outside of that circumstance.

On 7/25/2022 at 1:10 PM, Cheggf said:

without it making the fights way too short for solo players

Not a non-issue, but not necessarily an issue that needs solving. Not everybody's going to be happy with every change that's made to the game. If there are really people out there whose enjoyment of the game would be significantly hindered if their boss fights went from 5 minutes to 4 minutes or even 3... sorry, bros?

On 7/25/2022 at 1:10 PM, Cheggf said:

and is clearly shown to the players so they understand.

I don't know that it's really necessary to clearly show it to the players considering how much of the game's workings are obfuscated by default, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to come up with some kind of visual effect.

On 7/25/2022 at 1:10 PM, Cheggf said:

If you think the boss has too much health pick someone like Wolfgang, eat Warly dishes, make catapults

I don't want to switch characters. Why should people have to play characters they don't want to play just to make one of the most basic and universal aspects of the game less of a drudge? Even encouraging just switching to those other characters for a brief moment honestly feels like a failure of game design to me. P.S. catapults were an awful design choice.

On 7/26/2022 at 5:44 AM, Frosty_Mentos said:

I don't see the point in the health scaling [...] There's no thrill in being a coward.

You might start with opening your eyes. I'd ask how bunnymen and gunpowder are less "cowardly" than just wanting more reasonable HP pools, but then I'd feel really silly since you and I and everybody else here is sitting at a keyboard.

On 7/26/2022 at 11:12 AM, Owlrust said:

So the bosses health starts off normal and increases when hit from multiple sources? How many hits does it take to change its health? Sounds like a very easy way to grief by hitting once and running away.

On 7/26/2022 at 4:06 PM, chirsg said:

You have servers on terraria that were most popular having the most co-current players on at one time each doing their own thing and when someone summoned a moon lord, some person chopping trees, mining or swimming in the ocean would count for a HP boost for moonlord all the while not even being involved in a fight.

This is solved by using damage mitigation instead of HP increasing, and making things proximity-based. Would griefing still be possible? Sure, but it would be about the lamest kind imaginable, and you just vote kick after you're done. The most effective griefing tools in the game are a hammer and a torch.

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3 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

You might start with opening your eyes. I'd ask how bunnymen and gunpowder are less "cowardly" than just wanting more reasonable HP pools, but then I'd feel really silly since you and I and everybody else here is sitting at a keyboard.

It's not less cowardly nor is it a shameful way to go. It's a preparation and does job well and they ARE intended game mechanics and no argument can dismiss that. Walking a few paces away from a boss and walking back to it isn't really amazing either, it's just good reaction. Bosses like Bee Queen needs at least walls as prep to deal with the bees for a normal character. If you call it less cowardly to be Wolfgang or Wigfrid for this then you are wrong (I'm split on Wanda since being on edge of health is kinda brave).

TL:DR just use anything at your disposal within the game. If it does the job then it does it well for a reason.

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4 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

 

I disagree with most everything you have said. I don't know exactly who you play with, but coordinating strangers to fight a boss is never always easy. Your opinion is one of a burning passion to get your way no matter what and there is literally no argument I could make to change your mind. Your mind is made up regardless of anything anyone will say.
Bosses get easier when you fight them. It's logical. You hunt anything be it IRL or in most other games with a group and the endeavour gets easier. A couple of your arguments are made by assuming logic is thrown out of the window because "It's just a game"
That statement means that in your head, you have already won every single scenario.
I'm sorry, but no. If I have difficulty with a boss or just don't want it to be a time or resource sink, I will call a friend or attempt to make one on pubs to make the fight easier.
I have also soloed every single boss in this game and I don't want to make things more difficult by doing the very thing I do now to make boss fights easier.
But of course, you have won the argument already and I have lost. Congratulations.

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I never understood how people can enjoy doing dragonfly's identical kiting pattern + waiting for lavae to die behind a wall for 14 minutes straight and still have fun. This is one of the reasons wolfgang is my favourite character, the 2x damage bonus makes the game feel like its designed for one person playing instead of a team of 4. you can kite the lavae dfly spawns by yourself before the next one spawns, no walls needed.

Boss health scaling is an amazing idea it's just that experienced players are too used to how it works currently so idea of changing the game so drastically seems irrational. I imagine if in December you suggested changing the crafting ui, you'd get shredded to bits. But now it's universally agreed as a good change. That's how I see this. It's scary because its new and different but it would definitely benefit the game long term.

You don't even have to do anything drastic. Just add what other people suggested in this thread. ie Defense get's added (in real time) for every player in radius of the boss, Defense added does not scale linearily per player (ie having 3 players is better than having 2, and 2 players is still better than 1), defense added has a cap that it won't go over etc

If that sounds too crazy the least that could be added is reduction in health for the spawns bosses make. If theres only one player, lavae have less health, beequeen spawns less grumble bees, crabkings claws have less health, toadstools trees take fewer hits to chop etc

 

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Increasing the health of bosses simply because someone joined the server? No Thanks. There's however some much better ways that "boss scaling" could be added.

We could simply add Misery Toadstool's mechanic to other bosses, but use it for multiplayer balancing. For example imagine if bee queen was by default balanced a little better for a solo player, but you could sacrifice some rare bee near her hive to turn her into a harder version of her that was balanced for 2 players and dropped 2x the loot (and more sacrifices of that boss buffing item would make her balanced for 3 players... 4...).

This plays nicely on how the raid bosses work already where its a challenge you seek out, and it wouldn't cause you to unwillingly fight a buffed boss and it could even be fun to use this mechanic on solo play during lategame as an extra challenge trying to defeat a boss as op as you want.

(Bonus points if the bosses get special designs with enough buffs, such as a killer bee themed bee queen, "Killer Queen"?)1644482813_KillerBeeQueen.png.19984cbb844559458a911ef8cff3d13b.png

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What will happen if I start the battle alone and let my friends hide behind and wait?

They then supported me

I don't think this is a good proposal. If your proposal was put forward four years ago, maybe I will support you, but now I can face all bosses alone

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We had this convo before (a lot of times over the years, but also recently)...

The implementation isn't a problem at all. You can do this in a way that detects who's near the boss, or who's participating actively, every time someone hits the boss (more lightweight than it sounds). You can use adaptive defense rather than health boosts. You can use complicated curves rather than linear scaling. You can adjust the boss's attack patterns to make some harder attacks more common than others. You can scale the number of minions summoned in waves in relation to recently participating players. You can even boost drops a bit per player in proportion to the raised HP to make it worth bothering with, so several participants benefit from the fight rather than just one.

 

The issue is...well, I'll just quote the last topic:

On 7/11/2022 at 9:47 AM, maradyne said:

The only issue is the balance of it, when I got to asking around. Some people like things the way they are. Some want bosses to start where they are, then scale way higher. Some think that any system that can result in a higher number than current is unfair. Some think direct scaling is good. Some want a curve. Some think any scaling means that you should tell everyone else to go away to make the fight easier. Some want the bosses to deal more damage or attack faster (both of which aren't that hard to implement), but obviously others like... can't deal with that at all.

 

TL;DR doable but pain peko

 

...there are nitpicks to be had, but the biggest problem if I had to say...
This is old content, change scares people, and everyone thinks they're right.
To make this kind of update, you have to willfully ignore most of them and chance driving away all of them out of anger.

Ultimately, I think some iteration of this would be good for game health and helping newer players to ease into the game...but I wouldn't blame the devs if they never wanted to step within a 20 mile radius of this thing.

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3 hours ago, maradyne said:

You can do this in a way that detects who's near the boss, or who's participating actively, every time someone hits the boss (more lightweight than it sounds).

They already don't do this for the Twins, I have zero reason to believe they'd do this for all the bosses in the game lmao

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All right here we go

All bosses would have a certain amount of base health, and would gain health for every player nearby. If the fight has already started and nearby players join the fight, the extra stats will be added and remain added until the end of the fight.

Deerclops: 3000 health for 1 player. 750 additional health for each player that’s nearby.

Moose Goose: 3500 health for 1 player. 750 additional health for each player that’s nearby. 4 moslings for 1 player. 2 additional moslings for each additional player.

Antlion: 4000 health for 1 player. 750 additional health for each player that’s nearby. Area of arena increases per player. Sand spikes at random teammates and faster depending on how many people there are.

Bearger: 4500 health for 1 player. 1000 additional health for each player that’s nearby.

Malbatross: 3000 health for 1 player. 500 additional health for each player that’s nearby.

Crab king: (This is more of a rework to the fight to make him fun) No sea stacks spawn around crab king. 10000 health for 1 player. 1250 additional health for each player that’s nearby. There are 2 imposing claws per player with 200 health each. Imposing claws swipe at the players now and can be kited. They do 50 damage and only one can attack each player at once. Crab king spawns them at every quarter of health. Crab king will not attack while his claws are up, but hitting him while claws are up will cause him to get a free heal. Freeze attack is only used against other mobs, dealing 500 damage each time. Long wind up animation to signify that crab king is about to heal. Takes 5 seconds to heal each shell, but 1000 health per shell. 1 hit to break shell. Geysers will take 10 seconds to go off. New attack where geysers surround crab king and you must move away from him. New attack where he spits ice at the players and they must dodge the projectiles. If the projectiles hit, the player takes 50 damage and after three consecutive shots the player is frozen.They move about as quickly as a clockwork rook. Each red gem gives crab king 10% more health.  Each purple gem increases the speed at which geysers erupt by 7%. Each blue gem increases the speed of the ice shots by 5%. Each yellow gem increases the damage of all attacks by 6% Orange gems increase the amount of healing per rock by 4% and the amount of hits to break the rocks by 1 every 1.5 gems. Green gems will increase the health of each imposing claw by 55 for the first gem, and minus 5 for each gem afterwards. So it would go 55 + 50 + 45 + 40 + 35 etc. Upon death crab king would drop crab meat which could be made into powerful dishes. He would also drop crabby armor which would give an 85% damage reduction and would heal itself 1% durability every second. It will have a 10% chance to drop from crab king, but a 100% chance to drop if the pearl was inserted. Crab king will also drop a blueprint for floating chests.

Bee Queen: 15000 health for 1 player and 2000 health per extra player nearby. Her grumble bees now surround her and the player or players making an arena. Getting too close to them causes them to sting you. During her screeching phase, the bees will chase you like normal. She does not spawn slowing honey anymore, but still keeps the animation.


Klaus: 10000 health total and an additional 1500 for each player nearby. Klaus’s deer attack the player who attacked klaus last. The fire deer reheats thermal stone to max.

Toadstool: 20000 health. 2500 additional health for each player nearby. Trees take 1 axe swing to chop. Toadstool’s spore first flies in the air, then flies at the player and can be dodged. Remove misery toadstool and give drops to normal toadstool.

Fuelweaver: 10000 health. 1000 additional health for each player nearby. Rework to phase 2. Fuelweaver stands at the portal and calls for his minions. The woven shadows will come out of the ground at the edges of the arena. 15 will spawn evenly over the course of 20 seconds for 1 player. Each additional player will spawn 5 woven shadows. During this phase, fuelweaver is completely immortal until the phase is over and will not trap the players in bone cages. Fuelweaver only drains 50 sanity instead of 400. New phase where he spawns 2 random nightmare creatures to attack the player. Fuelweaver will not attack while this is happening.

D-fly. Dragonfly’s health sits at 15000 for one player and an extra 2000 for each player nearby. larvae can be taken out with one hit of an ice staff and have 100 health. Dragonfly spawns 0.5 more larvae with each nearby player. If Dragonfly swipes at the player while moving, the player can move in the opposite direction to dodge the attack. Enraged dragonfly destroys nearby structures and cannot be put to sleep. But enraged dragonfly is simply normal dragonfly with fire damage as well as normal damage. Enraged dragonfly can also summon fire walls in front of the player which forces them to move directions.

Ancient guardian: 8000 health. Each additional nearby player will add 1000 health to it.

 

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23 hours ago, chirsg said:

-snip-

Impressively BS rebuttal. I have a vested interest in a potential change and put some effort into arguing it, so I'm just unreasonably passionate. (Everyone else's kneejerk responses and vehement opposition is just expected I guess?) I (like most every successful game designer on the planet) don't see treating all manners of logic as good or inviolable to be conducive to enjoyable game design, so I'm just "throwing logic out the window" wholesale. And your parting shot is to reiterate that such an idea would make it harder to get a kill with multiple players when several posts -- including the one you're replying to -- say uh, no, just don't scale the solution linearly? Yeah, it's definitely my passion that makes your arguments ineffective. Not the fact that they suck.

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On 7/29/2022 at 11:02 AM, Ornge said:

I never understood how people can enjoy doing dragonfly's identical kiting pattern + waiting for lavae to die behind a wall for 14 minutes straight and still have fun. This is one of the reasons wolfgang is my favourite character, the 2x damage bonus makes the game feel like its designed for one person playing instead of a team of 4. you can kite the lavae dfly spawns by yourself before the next one spawns, no walls needed.

walled df is the most boring thing in dst but ice staff exists so it doesnt have nothing to do with hp, is just people prefering to stand still 10 min instead of using ice staff.The same way there is people that prefer to place walls against toad to prevent the mushcap spawn so they can hold F for 10 min instead of dealing with a fun fight but that isnt related to toad's hp neither. Or how people copy a YouTube video to cheese BQ's bees ai so they can hold F against her which isnt fun or is really related to BQ hp. And before th last patch people cheesed klaus jump (or the entire fight as wanda) by blocking him with his own sack (they migh still doing it with lureplants/signs) instead of dealing with one of the funnier and short fights. Or how people drop a rope near spider queen so she cant do anything and i dont think spider queen has raid boss hp neither mechanics 

is just people wanting a reward even if they were lazy or even if that means that the method used is more boring that dealing with the boss with effort

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On 7/30/2022 at 5:10 AM, Faintly Macabre said:

Impressively BS rebuttal. I have a vested interest in a potential change and put some effort into arguing it, so I'm just unreasonably passionate. (Everyone else's kneejerk responses and vehement opposition is just expected I guess?) I (like most every successful game designer on the planet) don't see treating all manners of logic as good or inviolable to be conducive to enjoyable game design, so I'm just "throwing logic out the window" wholesale. And your parting shot is to reiterate that such an idea would make it harder to get a kill with multiple players when several posts -- including the one you're replying to -- say uh, no, just don't scale the solution linearly? Yeah, it's definitely my passion that makes your arguments ineffective. Not the fact that they suck.

Sorry. Gotta disagree with everything you just said. You didn’t give a single reason why my ideas are bad. I made the bosses that everyone already hates actually be fun. I checked with my friends first and they pitched ideas to make this better. I added boss scaling because it’s a necessary feature that should be added to make the game better. If people are making bosses too hard, kick them or get them to help you. If you actually care 1 bit about boss scaling, then you wouldn’t have given such a bs response to an idea.

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