[Game Update] - 516063

[Parusoid]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

Fair enough from now on I guess I shouldn't pushed for Walter's slingshot to have a balanced upgrade instead I should have pushed for it to attack as fast as normal melee, I shouldn't have been against Wurt being able to use have a chance to use Wickbottoms books for a chance at activating it's effect or the idea that she should be able to eat leafy meats I now understand that these opinions made me someone who hated these characters and I will now correct myself in future posts.

now you're just being silly and exaggerating. not having to suffer does not mean being completely unbalanced

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Parusoid said:

now you're just being silly and exaggerating. not having to suffer does not mean being completely unbalanced

How is she suffering?

[Castiliano]

Hey guys, I hope you keep paying attention and doing "mini-reworks" on other characters, parallel to the "official" reworks. Thank you so much for this! 

If possible, change Wortox's double hop cooldown filter, green doesn't seem to fit so well with the character's aesthetic. Red maybe can fit better, even though the soul (in the background) is already red too; even blue like Wanda's CD would be better.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Castiliano

[Well-met]

9 hours ago, Arcwell said:

2 is required to have permanent full moon uptime, plus another if you're holding one in your inventory (and thus not letting it recover).

Not necessary, sure, but 2-3 is definitely preferred.

permanent? who said anything about permanent

if you want permanent full moon then yeah you should pay a heavy price which is what klei did wonderfully

[MondayNight]

Glad to see KLei lending an ear to most circulated & agreed-upon community suggestions - as a Beta should be like. Gj and ty!

While now I for one am pretty satisfied with almost all of the new changes brought to Wicker's re-balance, I as well believe Lunar Grimoire is.. let's say problematic: like others have pointed out, random, knowledgeable but irresponsible players can "troll" the server by removing Iridescent Gems from Archives for personal use or otherwise. Granted, people could do the same thing without a Wicker, but now such behavior is incentivized. There are 2 direct ways to solve this: 1) either make the Archives-socketed Iridescent Gems un-removable - but this in turn will hamper a reasonable Wicker's progress towards Lunar Grimoire and further new Iridescent Gems production; 2) change the Grimoire's recipe to something not requiring the Iridi Gems, even if Gem recipe is pretty lore-friendly. A 5-10x Moon Rock/Glass + 5x Moon Moth + 2 Papyrus might be a more appropriate recipe?! Anyway I reckon making Archives' socketed Iridi Gems stuck in their sockets could be a fine change overall, no matter Lunar Grimoire's recipe.

Edited July 21, 2022 by x0-VERSUS-1y

[lakhnish]

8 hours ago, AugyBear said:

I'd like to see the Horticulture books work in multiples of 9 plants (Abridged=9/Expanded=18), since 9 plants is a "full" farm plot.

A full farm plot is 10, since on the 11th one is when overcrowding stressors take effect.

I think having Horti, Abridged work at the current 10 is good and now that Horti, Expanded grows Banana Bushes & Stone Fruit to their last stage in one read while also tending to crops AND maxing out the nutrients in the soil when read, it's in a good place, even if it means that it gives 5 less produce for stuff that ain't a Banana Bush or Stone Fruit Bush.

[Parusoid]

6 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

I think having Horti, Abridged work at the current 10 is good and now that Horti, Expanded grows Banana Bushes & Stone Fruit to their last stage in one read while also tending to crops AND maxing out the nutrients in the soil when read, it's in a good place, even if it means that it gives 5 less produce for stuff that ain't a Banana Bush or Stone Fruit Bush.

Yeah horti books are rally good now, basic already was, upgraded now really feels upgraded and i think it might become bread and butter along with banana bushes as they can easily negate sanity issues caused by books. Now im pretty sure its bug that green books do not affect mushrooms planters in beta and they will get fixed, but if they got the same treatment as banana and avocados (meaning growing to max stage in one read) that would be really cool

[Mysterious box]

19 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

While now I for one am pretty satisfied with almost all of the new changes brought to Wicker's re-balance, I as well believe Lunar Grimoire is.. let's say problematic: like others have pointed out, random, knowledgeable but irresponsible players can "troll" the server by removing Iridescent Gems from Archives for personal use or otherwise.

My issue with this is a troll is gonna troll this way regardless of if Wickerbottom's book has this cost or not if it's such a issue I don't see why the ability to even take them isn't removed?

Edited July 21, 2022 by Mysterious box

[Capybara007]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

My issue with this is a troll is gonna troll this way regardless of if Wickerbottom's book has this cost or not if it's such a issue I don't see why the ability to even take them isn't removed?

that is not true because nowadays you dont see people griefing the server by stealing the opals, with this recipe wickerbottom players will do it so they can craft a book

you can always burn down the server base, but if you were rewarded by griefing it would be way more common

[MondayNight]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

My issue with this is a troll is gonna troll this way regardless of if Wickerbottom's book has this cost or not if it's such a issue I don't see why the ability to even take them isn't removed?

Yes, and I've mentioned that in my post as well.

 

3 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

that is not true because nowadays you dont see people griefing the server by stealing the opals, with this recipe wickerbottom players will do it so they can craft a book

you can always burn down the server base, but if you were rewarded by griefing it would be way more common

True, but I for one saw enough cases of Iridescent Gems taken from archives (mostly in Endless servers) for sole purpose of trolling, to become a problem. And is simple, because plenty rushers go for Archives' Thulecite since is "easy pickings" as opposed to Ruins; then they take the Iridi Gems too and drop them into Abyss via "cheese gate" (I can even "name and shame" certain players that do so on a regular basis on KLei official servers for $hits&giggles).

Edited July 21, 2022 by x0-VERSUS-1y

[HansimUnglueck]

11 hours ago, Pedro cc said:

You just really need one opal and a bookshelf, who needs 6 consecutive full moons (2 books). I agree with this change and I think no one ever actually activates or grief the archives in pubs anyways 

That is just not true. People on public servers have been doing the whole event series more times than I can remember (me included). With the latest changes on how public servers reset on a new update, a lot of people just stopped playing there because there is no transparency on when a dev is pushing new updates. It's very frustrating and a total bummer. In my opinion, that has been the worst change Klei has ever done in general.

12 hours ago, Primalflower said:

I'm not necessarily opposed to like, the idea of wickerbottom being forced to learn the lunar grimoire recipe from the archives so she sees it ingame before shes able to craft it, but I think the recipe sucks a bit otherwise. Having it require an opal to craft makes it so only 2 are available without any meddling from players, which kind of sucks in a multiplayer setting, and from then on you're limited to the amount of yellow gems that you can scrounge up, which is very limiting.

I think it could absolutely stand to be tuned down.

The problem here is not the change in recipe but the poor design of the two free opal gems waiting for griefers to take.They should at least make it a minigame to retrieve the opals from different locations inside the archives/ruins/caves, so griefers would have to invest time and resources to do their shenanigans. Other than that I like the changes because 2 moonstone was way too cheap to alter the moon cycle and stop other players from doing Shadow Pieces/Fuelweaver.

12 hours ago, Hornete said:

I think it's kinda funny the forums got so stuck up on the moon book while arguably the rain book is so much better

Game changing spells like this are always extremely powerful but it's not gamebreaking in regards to global events compared to the lunar cycle book.

[BeeClops]

RIP the opal gems in archieves on pubs, you will be missed

[HansimUnglueck]

32 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Glad to see KLei lending an ear to most circulated & agreed-upon community suggestions - as a Beta should be like. Gj and ty!

While now I for one am pretty satisfied with almost all of the new changes brought to Wicker's re-balance, I as well believe Lunar Grimoire is.. let's say problematic: like others have pointed out, random, knowledgeable but irresponsible players can "troll" the server by removing Iridescent Gems from Archives for personal use or otherwise. Granted, people could do the same thing without a Wicker, but now such behavior is incentivized. There are 2 direct ways to solve this: 1) either make the Archives-socketed Iridescent Gems un-removable - but this in turn will hamper a reasonable Wicker's progress towards Lunar Grimoire and further new Iridescent Gems production; 2) change the Grimoire's recipe to something not requiring the Iridi Gems, even if Gem recipe is pretty lore-friendly. A 5-10x Moon Rock/Glass + 5x Moon Moth + 2 Papyrus might be a more appropriate recipe?! Anyway I reckon making Archives' socketed Iridi Gems stuck in their sockets could be a fine change overall, no matter Lunar Grimoire's recipe.

What @x0-VERSUS-1y said. Making the 2 archives iridescent gems non-removable would stop griefers.

I can also envision removing one gem would activate a safety-measurement locking in the other one permanently until another gem has been placed into the socket again thus reducing the grief.

I still like the aspect of Wickerbottom exploring the archives because outside of the Constant she was a librarian, so it would just fit naturally. The only character that is usually exploring the archives is Wanda and it's not a quest for knowledge but rather for wrecking walls.

A possible fix to me would look like this:

Wickerbottom needs to learn the recipe of the Lunar Grimoire. This would already limit the griefing aspect of the book. The place to learn this new and hidden knowledge would be located inside the archives. Players would have to explore the caves for that, also reducing the chances of griefers investing time into it. Add some new crafting station exclusively for Wickerbottom there so she can craft/learn that book there. You can therefore even remove the iridescent gems from the recipe and make it cost 5-10 Moon Moth/Glass, doesn't really matter.

[Mike23Ua]

10 minutes ago, HansimUnglueck said:

What @x0-VERSUS-1y said. Making the 2 archives iridescent gems non-removable would stop griefers.

I can also envision removing one gem would activate a safety-measurement locking in the other one permanently until another gem has been placed into the socket again thus reducing the grief.

I still like the aspect of Wickerbottom exploring the archives because outside of the Constant she was a librarian, so it would just fit naturally. The only character that is usually exploring the archives is Wanda and it's not a quest for knowledge but rather for wrecking walls.

A possible fix to me would look like this:

Wickerbottom needs to learn the recipe of the Lunar Grimoire. This would already limit the griefing aspect of the book. The place to learn this new and hidden knowledge would be located inside the archives. Players would have to explore the caves for that, also reducing the chances of griefers investing time into it. Add some new crafting station exclusively for Wickerbottom there so she can craft/learn that book there. You can therefore even remove the iridescent gems from the recipe and make it cost 5-10 Moon Moth/Glass, doesn't really matter.

The “walls” in the Archives are literally jam packed with ancient scrolls… Why can’t Klei just make it so a Wickerbottom AND ONLY A WICKERBOTTOM can walk over to and “Interact” with these scrolls to learn the recipe? 

It would work on Xbox identical in every way to upgrading pearls hermit home.

Player still has to visit archives, then go get moon moth wings & shattered glass, no longer with Opal gem required to craft.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Mike23Ua

[maxwell_winters]

Why is the recipe expensive? Because the book completely removes time management around the moon cycle.  

The point is, you don't have to wait for 2.5 hours to get any of these effects  and then get disappointed because  it was autumn and night lasted 30 seconds (or you just forgot) and wait another 2.5 hours. Sometimes you want to do multiple things on the full moon but don't have time.  It often happens to me that I wanna go to the lunar/caves/whatever to do stuff but then I remember that full moon is in 2 days and I should probably stay to farm werepigs/do moonstone event or whatever.

Even if you don't find the full moon powerful (which I don't actually believe, it all feels like haggling to get a cool thing for cheap), removing this aspect of time management is actually what makes the book powerful. This is why it needs an irri gem to even it odd. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by maxwell_winters

[HansimUnglueck]

17 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The “walls” in the Archives are literally jam packed with ancient scrolls… Why can’t Klei just make it so a Wickerbottom AND ONLY A WICKERBOTTOM can walk over to and “Interact” with these scrolls to learn the recipe? 

Totally agree with you on that. Sounds like a nice idea. Wickerbottom would have to read different ancient scrolls down there like a puzzle to eventually learn the recipe. That would actually require the player to stroll through the archives in order to find all of them.

Edited July 21, 2022 by HansimUnglueck

[AugyBear]

2 hours ago, lakhnish said:

A full farm plot is 10, since on the 11th one is when overcrowding stressors take effect.

I think having Horti, Abridged work at the current 10 is good and now that Horti, Expanded grows Banana Bushes & Stone Fruit to their last stage in one read while also tending to crops AND maxing out the nutrients in the soil when read, it's in a good place, even if it means that it gives 5 less produce for stuff that ain't a Banana Bush or Stone Fruit Bush.

Ah, thank you for clarifying that! I thought the farm tiles are crowded AT 10 plants, so I've always done 9/tile.

Action Queue has a function for tilling plots that makes perfect 3*3 grids of farm plants, which leaves them looking pretty dang full. I've never seen a way to jam more plants in there without disturbing the existing tills. (To be fair, due to my previous understanding, I never really tried)

-----------------------------------------------

So, as a thought experiment, how would a "cursed" PUB recover from any player stealing the iridescent gems in the Archive and then abandoning the server?

You need at least 3 yellow gems, at least 1 green gem, and it would take ~1 full year to get the 3 full moons needed to get all the iridescent gems for the Archive.

This can be done by any player playing any character to grief the server.

In contrast, a responsible Wickerbottom could take the gems during a Ruins rush, make 3 full moons in 3 days with her new books, and now the gems are back and everyone's happy.

In both cases, either the server suffers or Wicker gets her books early game, meaning that having an iridescent gem in the recipe does not currently solve our problem (Wickerbottom having full moon control early game). It just encourages new ones (having people fight over the gems).

Solutions:

Make the archive gems unpickable

- Easiest and covers both scenarios, Wicker gets her books no earlier than day 31 unless someone can figure out a way to reliably do the moon staff event on day 11. (Probably a team effort of rushing Dragonfly, Ruins, maybe some Wortox teleporting, sharing maps, etc. Doable, but difficult)

Change the recipe for the Lunar Grimoire

- Players no longer fight over gems, but Wickerbottom still probably gets the book early game and we haven't solved our griefing issue

Make iridescent gems easier to acquire

- Solves griefing and fighting over the gems, but Wickerbottom still gets the books early and requires more developer time to figure out an appropriate way to get the gems more easily

What do you all think?

Edited July 21, 2022 by AugyBear
Formatting

[Wonz]

14 hours ago, Anthony_L3hr said:

Well well well. @maxwell_winters

 

 

Prepare for greedy wickers to take both iridiscent gems from archives for themselves so you do the moon caller event to discover you need to wait 40 more days and make 2 more starcaller  staves for another two gems before you can start the archive unless the wicker uses the books for you so you have to wait not 40 days  but 3 instead and still use 2 staves..

Edited July 21, 2022 by Wonz

[lakhnish]

Is it not possible for just the effect of the full moon to only occur to prefabs within a certain range of Wickerbottom reading the book, like say any Pigs in a 5 tile range will turn into a Werepig, or Vitreoasis' to regrow moon glass when the book is read?

It would resolve a lot of issues with this book.

[AugyBear]

29 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

Is it not possible for just the effect of the full moon to only occur to prefabs within a certain range of Wickerbottom reading the book, like say any Pigs in a 5 tile range will turn into a Werepig, or Vitreoasis' to regrow moon glass when the book is read?

It would resolve a lot of issues with this book.

I think we're still left with the iridescent gem griefing issue, but this would be a great way to protect Woodie players as well. It would also resolve the issue of the lunar cycle being thrown off.

Edit: if the book is reworked in this way, I would definitely want to see the resource cost be reduced to moon glass or moon moth wings only. The strongest features of this book are global illumination and global lunar events. If you take away both of those, you drastically scale down the power of the book, and the recipe should match.

Edited July 21, 2022 by AugyBear

[lakhnish]

1 hour ago, AugyBear said:

I think we're still left with the iridescent gem griefing issue, but this would be a great way to protect Woodie players as well. It would also resolve the issue of the lunar cycle being thrown off.

Edit: if the book is reworked in this way, I would definitely want to see the resource cost be reduced to moon glass or moon moth wings only. The strongest features of this book are global illumination and global lunar events. If you take away both of those, you drastically scale down the power of the book, and the recipe should match.

Yeah, I was thinking that instead of pushing the full moon, I was thinking that for prefabs in a certain range of Wicker reading the book should undergo the effect that would happen when it was a full moon.

And of course the recipe would match that, like the moon rock nuggets + the moon butterflies rather than the iridescent gem.

It would resolve so many things, like the moon cycle being changed, griefing of the iridescent gems, the recipe cost, etc.

Only question is if that's even possible.

[Guille6785]

I'd be down to make the book imitate full moon effects within a certain radius for a cheaper cost, would make more sense in-universe as well since wicker would be channelling a small amount of the moon's power instead of having complete control over it

[AugyBear]

8 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

Yeah, I was thinking that instead of pushing the full moon, I was thinking that for prefabs in a certain range of Wicker reading the book should undergo the effect that would happen when it was a full moon.

And of course the recipe would match that, like the moon rock nuggets + the moon butterflies rather than the iridescent gem.

It would resolve so many things, like the moon cycle being changed, griefing of the iridescent gems, the recipe cost, etc.

Only question is if that's even possible.

This also synergizes with Lux Aeterna instead of replacing it, now that I think about it.

I'm away from my PC so I can't dig through the files, but I'm sure there's a transform method called when a prefab is loaded while a full moon is active.

Off the top of my head, it should apply to mushrooms, graves, pigs, and pig heads on sticks. We would just be triggering that method on book read in a certain radius from the reading point, rather than on all prefabs loaded by all players on the server.

Edited July 21, 2022 by AugyBear

[Castiliano]

14 hours ago, PuffinBy said:

Cool! Now, nerf the rain book. 

Goose Feather would be awesome

[Evelo]

13 hours ago, AugyBear said:

For The End is Nigh, I think a solid fix could be as simple as giving players some reliable method of determining lightning targets. i.e. if we knew lightning bolts would prioritize Lightningrods > Bosses > Trees > Hostile Mobs > Players > Passive Mobs, then we could plan accordingly to get some use out of the book.

Unless you have a Wes Lightning Rod > Wes > Boss >Tree > Hostile Mob > Player > Passive or just miss completely.
Poor Wes.