The unspoken rule of "vanilla" and options

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 hours ago, hhh2 said:

a single use item dropped by a raid boss to stop disease seems really dumb

single use? i didnt say it should be a single use item, i was thinking about something very durable and they could simply change a number to make disease appear later

[hhh2]

24 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

single use? i didnt say it should be a single use item, i was thinking about something very durable and they could simply change a number to make disease appear later

i meant it's only use would be to stop disease, not the item itself having a durability of one.

[Mike23Ua]

5 hours ago, Shosuko said:

idr but probably - I was very new at the game when I heard about this, and I remember the discussion about it where they chatted about how having bosses always spawn on you helped too much XD so they had to add other restrictions like you can't run away from them, can't get food from them, etc.

Which is kinda the problem with trying to add difficulty based things to world-gen.  World gen settings just cannot possibly be nuanced enough to handle the scope of all of the changes some people want to put forward, and most of the time they are putting them forward in some kind of quixotic quest for an "uncompromising mode" and they think like... "If ppl can turn it off then we can do whatever we want right?"  but the reality is world gen isn't for that, and shouldn't be.  If you want to make changes on that scale then really its time to learn how to mod :\ 

I feel like your colossally misunderstanding any points I was trying to get across, World Gen Settings effect everything- Content that’s in the game now, content that will be in the game in a Month, content that might get added 4 years from now.

Its not just “What they Currently Do…” it’s asking the question of “What will they be able to do in the future?”

Regardless of what you want to call a Harder mode- Be it Uncomp, Through The Ages, Klei’s new game + or whatever: That content still will be added to this customization menu for you toggle on/off/more/less over to make the experience suited towards your liking.

[Mr Giggio]

disease is a bad example cuz that doesnt bring ANYTHING to the table but i agree with ur point

[Maxposting]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

-snip-

Perhaps don't starve was never even intended for you.

World Gen settings don't even affect anything beyond an artificial difficulty increase. Nothing gains more health, or damage or anything, it literally just spawns more or often, depending on the settings.

At least toy with those settings or learn more about them before shouting them out into the forums every. single. week.

There has never been any sort of good, game changing potential for the settings.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

37 minutes ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

There has never been any sort of good, game changing potential for the settings.

starting in different seasons, making spring more difficult with more rain, affecting the grind of the game by changing the ammount of materials avaraible, more decorative potential because you can increase the ammount of sprites per item/structure/mobs avaraible, removing butterflies which are so dumb (and later activating them to use them for decoration or beeboxes), affecting the shape of the world, changing how often mobs and bosses respawn for servers filled with maaany players... i can keep going and it has potential for future updates but this isnt worth my time

i feel like you only comment to argue against mike even when you bring poor points or any point at all

[Maxposting]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

-snip-

True, the last point was hastily written. I apologize, but the other points stand.

I meant it as the "game design and game popularity changer that would put dst on par with minecraft" as mike often puts it, not that it doesn't spice up the gameplay.

[Baark0]

21 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yes, and for years I’ve been trying to say that, luckily some nice folks at Klei actually listened and started to incorporate that into the game- For example: Setting Nightmare creatures to Tons doesn’t just make more of them spawn, they also move faster & hit harder.. and take a little longer to kill.

wait has this been documented anywhere? if no, why? this seems like such a cool way to spice up insanity, yet i've literally never heard of this until now

[SonicDen220]

1 minute ago, Baark0 said:

wait has this been documented anywhere? if no, why? this seems like such a cool way to spice up insanity, yet i've literally never heard of this until now

The reason why this is the first time you've heard about this is because he's making this up. Or maybe that's just his magical Xbox version, idk.

[Mike23Ua]

6 hours ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

Perhaps don't starve was never even intended for you.

World Gen settings don't even affect anything beyond an artificial difficulty increase. Nothing gains more health, or damage or anything, it literally just spawns more or often, depending on the settings.

At least toy with those settings or learn more about them before shouting them out into the forums every. single. week.

There has never been any sort of good, game changing potential for the settings.

It’s not my fault your losing your mind, but nonetheless I apologize for it.

You are currently only looking at what world Gen toggles currently do, and your not looking at them from the stance of what they’re capable of with future changes to it.

What is a Difficulty level, In any game you have ever played.. what is the difference in that games difficulty levels? That’s the question I would like to ask..

Ignore everything else I post down below if you want, but answer that one question.

Any game you have ever played, any game with a Difficulty setting- What changes when you bump up the difficulty?

More enemies? Less Resources? More HP for your Enemies and Less HP for You? No Mini-Map or on Screen Indicators? A new variation of Enemy type or maybe it’s a brand new gameplay mechanic like Poison Damage over time? 

And.. now ask yourself what changes when you change difficulty settings? What EXACTLY is added to, or Removed From your Gameplay session when you swap from Easy to Hard or Vice Versa?

Keywords here are
*Added To or Removed From*

Something that World Gen toggles are fully capable of.

Now let’s look at the multitude of ways Klei could add new content into the game:

Maybe they want to listen to the popular fan favorite suggestion of a “Through the Ages” world that scales & becomes progressively more difficult the longer the world has existed- that’s fine & dandy but: What changes?

Does it go from Autumn to Winter and ponds freeze over? Does it become cold and you start freezing? Do new enemy types spawn?

Now what happens when you change the difficulty from Winter.. back to Autumn?

Do those ponds revert back to unfrozen? Do you stop freezing? Do the new enemy types stop spawning?

If you just want to skip to the TL:DR- a Difficulty choice in any game ever created is just a “Content Slider” that *adds to or removes from* the Default experience.

Now if anyone can properly prove me wrong, I promise to shut up forever about world Gen settings- I will even be impressed with this feat to the point I’ll praise your mental prowess with respect <3

 

31 minutes ago, Baark0 said:

wait has this been documented anywhere? if no, why? this seems like such a cool way to spice up insanity, yet i've literally never heard of this until now

It may not do what I claim it does, but it does do SOMETHING because it’s highlighted here in patch notes (or it’s supposed to do something anyway..)

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

It may not do what I claim it does, but it does do SOMETHING because it’s highlighted here in patch notes (or it’s supposed to do something anyway..)

No, no it doesn't.  It does what you would think it does, it spawns tons of shadow monsters when your sanity is low.  The monsters are the exact same monsters you'd fight at any other time, the only difference is you gets lots of them.  They do not hit harder, faster, or take longer to kill.

I know you're excited about what you think is an awesome idea, and how world gen settings can do more than just world gen... but they are world gen settings, that's what they do.  They *can* be used to alter difficulty depending on the player, but for every setting you might *think* makes the game hard, there is likely a position that turns that into a boon.  People don't misunderstand you, they just don't think this is a good idea.

The way dst's difficulty works is good - there are monsters that deal more and less damage, have stronger and weaker sanity auras, are easier / harder to engage solo / as a team, etc.  Variety is good, and the whole spectrum exists.  DST isn't a game that can be much harder than it is though, and once you're good at doing everything - that's it, you're good at it.  If you want it even harder, then make it harder on yourself.  Use different tactics, give yourself restrictions, etc.

omg frogs explode - okay, lets run this situation down.
IF => they are possible to dodge / kite, then we play them as we do now.  Take them to mgoose, beefs, or go to caves, jump on a boat, play abigail, etc...  ie nothing changes.
ELSE IF => they are impossible to dodge / kite, then we just play in caves in spring AND summer? lol

And Klei has wasted how much creative / dev time on this non-feature?

If you want frog rain to be harder, why don't you just try to fight the frogs as they land?  Unless you're doing that, I see no justification to ask for them to be any harder.  They're plenty hard - if you want them to be.  That's on you tho

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

It may not do what I claim it does

then you shouldnt claim it because you create missinformation, some people read the forum to get more knowledge about the game

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

but it does do SOMETHING because it’s highlighted here in patch notes (or it’s supposed to do something anyway..)

yes and the explanation is kinda confusing but is just a fix because before that setting might not worked as intended. I was hyped about it and later i tested it and notice that nothing about the shadows themselves changed, would be could if atleast it spawns 3 terrorbeaks or something like that but idk since i only play with it on more which sadly isnt noticeable

 

[Maxposting]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

People don't misunderstand you, they just don't think this is a good idea.

Thank you. I didn't know how to put it.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

No, no it doesn't.  It does what you would think it does, it spawns tons of shadow monsters when your sanity is low.  The monsters are the exact same monsters you'd fight at any other time, the only difference is you gets lots of them.  They do not hit harder, faster, or take longer to kill.

I know you're excited about what you think is an awesome idea, and how world gen settings can do more than just world gen... but they are world gen settings, that's what they do.  They *can* be used to alter difficulty depending on the player, but for every setting you might *think* makes the game hard, there is likely a position that turns that into a boon.  People don't misunderstand you, they just don't think this is a good idea.

The way dst's difficulty works is good - there are monsters that deal more and less damage, have stronger and weaker sanity auras, are easier / harder to engage solo / as a team, etc.  Variety is good, and the whole spectrum exists.  DST isn't a game that can be much harder than it is though, and once you're good at doing everything - that's it, you're good at it.  If you want it even harder, then make it harder on yourself.  Use different tactics, give yourself restrictions, etc.

omg frogs explode - okay, lets run this situation down.
IF => they are possible to dodge / kite, then we play them as we do now.  Take them to mgoose, beefs, or go to caves, jump on a boat, play abigail, etc...  ie nothing changes.
ELSE IF => they are impossible to dodge / kite, then we just play in caves in spring AND summer? lol

And Klei has wasted how much creative / dev time on this non-feature?

If you want frog rain to be harder, why don't you just try to fight the frogs as they land?  Unless you're doing that, I see no justification to ask for them to be any harder.  They're plenty hard - if you want them to be.  That's on you tho

Exploding frogs was an example of new content..

You guys are so blindly biased I swear, What EXACTLY is a Lunar Horror Hound or a Shattered Spider other then being a Variation of an Already existing Mob that has some new mechanics to it (just like exploding frogs would)

Exploding Frogs is one example of content that’s NOT in the game but could be in the future because who knows: Klei does a crossover with Max Curse of Brotherhood or Spelunky.

But if your wanting to stick strictly to what’s in the game FINE let’s be boring…

Whats the Difference Between Deerclops & Feastclops aside from just like Lunar Hounds & Shattered Spiders- it’s just a variation of an already existing mob with a new lazer beam.

Exciting.

Stop. being.. Biased and kindly please look at the content already presented to you.

Was Horror Hounds a waste of Klei’s time because people just light them on fire and skip the whole Horror Mutation part as well?

Better yet what on EARTH Could they possibly add as new content even if that content is a 40$ paid dlc expansion- That wouldn’t just be adding to or removing from existing mechanics?

So you run and hide from acid frogs spending spring in a cave, that’s on you..

But Klei could add a hundred unique islands out in DSTs oceans & people will still ignore that because “why go there when I can survive infinity days on the mainland just fine?”

DST is a Sandbox game: And maybe BECAUSE it’s a Sandbox game YOU can’t see a change in Difficulty.

But Klei did.. remember how brutally hardcore Wavey Jones was when it first released.. but then they later nerf’d Wavey to be less punishing?

people already admit to turning off Wildfires, even though I personally love the chaos of a world going up in flames around me..

Was Wildfires a waste of Klei’s time as well?

… I get tired of trying to talk to you guys, most of you expect someone to know 100% facts like I can open my games files and read how all the code works instead of just guessing at what a feature does or how much damage a newly released weapon deals.

You refuse to be budged from your view point: Even though I have used examples of content that isn’t in the game alongside examples of already existing content..

What more do you want?  

[Maxposting]

12 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I get tired of trying to talk to you guys, most of you expect someone to know 100% facts like I can open my games files and read how all the code works instead of just guessing at what a feature does or how much damage a newly released weapon deals.

Most people wouldn't be "biased" againist you if you atleast checked your facts, but we all make mistakes.

The issue with your toggle system dream would be great on paper. The key words being dream and on paper.

Almost noone ever changes the settings, simply because sandbox games have a specific balance and novelty around the default settings; It is the intended way.

Edit: was wrong, about the last point

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 hours ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

Almost noone ever changes the settings

i do...

[Mike23Ua]

7 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i do...

With 3 QoLs & 3 “setting the stage” updates coming this year- I’m pretty sure we will get a lot more fancy stuff to mess with here, the first of those 3 QoLs has beta phase starting in February  

[ArubaroBeefalo]

20 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

With 3 QoLs & 3 “setting the stage” updates coming this year- I’m pretty sure we will get a lot more fancy stuff to mess with here, the first of those 3 QoLs has beta phase starting in February  

im sure, maybe my suggestion about changing weather damage was already though by klei or something similar to make everybody (tryhards, non tryhards, more casual players, people starting, etc) happy by, not only changing the world but also the difficulty

i dont think world gen shouldnt be a priority but, if well done, it can make the game experiencie richer with few updates

[GetNerfedOn]

4 hours ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

Almost noone ever changes the settings, simply because sandbox games have a specific balance and novelty around the default settings; It is the intended way.

This statement is an excellent poll idea, thanks! will poll when the hype for the roadmap has died down

[hhh2]

6 hours ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

Almost noone ever changes the settings

Resource variety: Classic

I do not care for grass gekkos

[00petar00]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

… I get tired of trying to talk to you guys, most of you expect someone to know 100% facts like I can open my games files and read how all the code works instead of just guessing at what a feature does or how much damage a newly released weapon deals.

You refuse to be budged from your view point: Even though I have used examples of content that isn’t in the game alongside examples of already existing content..

What more do you want?  

I don't think people are disagreeing with you on new content/variations of current mobs like on lunar island. 

The thing is, this kind of content shouldn't be world gen setting, world gen is for creating the world and just being able to toggle the current features for more or less, there shouldn't be different pattern/variations to the current mobs there to be toggled on or off or replace the current ones.

[GelatinousCube]

All this talk of vanilla settings.. I modify the absolute hell out of my world creation and world settings... 

No wildfires..

No hounds waves.. (I hate fire hounds with a passion purely for their threat to my base/outposts or non renewable world resources and structures, if I could turn off fire hounds or only have hound waves in Spring or Winter I would definitely do so)

Less monkey huts in caves..

Treeguards and almost all bosses at highest setting so I can fight them far more often..

Long Autumn and Winter, shorter summer cause I get bored of summer..

And so much more...

Most people would say I'm playing the game on easy mode which doesn't bother me in the slightest. The game is highly customisable and I already find my own ways to challenge myself so why not customise the game to the version I enjoy most?

More than anything I enjoy terraforming  and building up my world further and further late game in a sandbox style.

I do still really enjoy joining random pubs from time to time and doing all the early game stuff and helping randoms set up a base and rushing certain bosses but overall I just like late game the most. It's almost like playing a second-life type game but in a cool fantasy cartoon setting instead.

Also I'm on console and pure solo in my private world so stuff like Fuelweaver and CC are challenge enough for me to be honest! 

When I want to play something utterly unforgiving I play other games anyway!

[Mike23Ua]

13 hours ago, GelatinousCube said:

All this talk of vanilla settings.. I modify the absolute hell out of my world creation and world settings... 

No wildfires..

No hounds waves.. (I hate fire hounds with a passion purely for their threat to my base/outposts or non renewable world resources and structures, if I could turn off fire hounds or only have hound waves in Spring or Winter I would definitely do so)

Less monkey huts in caves..

Treeguards and almost all bosses at highest setting so I can fight them far more often..

Long Autumn and Winter, shorter summer cause I get bored of summer..

And so much more...

Most people would say I'm playing the game on easy mode which doesn't bother me in the slightest. The game is highly customisable and I already find my own ways to challenge myself so why not customise the game to the version I enjoy most?

More than anything I enjoy terraforming  and building up my world further and further late game in a sandbox style.

I do still really enjoy joining random pubs from time to time and doing all the early game stuff and helping randoms set up a base and rushing certain bosses but overall I just like late game the most. It's almost like playing a second-life type game but in a cool fantasy cartoon setting instead.

Also I'm on console and pure solo in my private world so stuff like Fuelweaver and CC are challenge enough for me to be honest! 

When I want to play something utterly unforgiving I play other games anyway!

No one ever said it had to be utterly unforgiving.. but what’s the difference between a Spider Warrior in DST and a Venomous Spider Warrior in Shipwrecked aside from one can inflict you with poison damage over time where as the other can not?

Its the same mob re-skinned to look different/behave differently.

Frogs in DST vs Frogs in Hamlet: Hamlet Frogs have a different color AND they now swim.

Small Ponds in Hamlet vs Ponds in DST?

There is a specific mob in Hamlet (pan golden) that like an Ant Eater: Can suck up those ponds which mixes up the gameplay a bit because they won’t always be found in the exact same location.

Whats the difference between a Birchnuts tree in DST and the same similar type of tree in Hamlet? They both drop the same amount of resources.. except the ones in Hamlet also have little squirrel mobs fall out of them to steal the seed and run away with it.

Mob & Mob Variations have been a thing with the DS franchise for quite some time now.

Imagine if you could pick the “type” of frogs that spawn into your world- are the classic DST frogs, Shipwrecked Frogs, Hamlet Frogs, or maybe they’re Exploding Gas frogs from Max Curse of Brotherhood as a new Crossover mob.

Some mobs even have their different variations toggle-able in the settings menu, for example you can toggle less Regular spiders and More Shattered Spiders as separate toggles.

Playing this game on Default settings is something I stopped doing the moment I noticed I had settings I could screw around with.

And while it is true that turning something OFF may impact another feature of the game (such as disabling summer will prevent the Cactus Flower from blooming which locks you out of fully upgrading pearls hermit home..)

Turning things on/off also forces you to play the game in ways that maybe you had not been..

Such as: if you turn Nightmare monsters completely off, you now need to rely on other much slower methods to gather Nightmare Fuel. 

To provide even more evidence why “Default” is no longer relevant, one of Klei’s most recent biggest updates (the terraria collaboration) had its very own world Gen pre-set “A taste of Terraria”

Thats what a difficulty mode is in any game you have EVER Played.. and that’s what I’ve been trying to express here in these forums for several years now, “Difficulty” is only a “Content Slider” in disguise & the differences between those difficulty’s is merely a “Pre-Set” of options that are toggled for that particular difficulty.

If you play State of Decay 2 you can see this for yourself- That game has a content slider where you can choose different levels of how you want content to behave, In addition to the “Pre-Sets” of difficulty’s you can select, you can also choose how the content behaves..

HOWEVER if you set less zombies, more resources etc.. then the game automatically adjusts your difficulty level to be one of the easier ones, BUT if you CHANGE the Difficulty without touching the content sliders.. you will notice those sliders change THEMSELVES and you have to have X amount of things toggled before X Difficulty is what the game considers you playing on.

I specifically mention SoD 2 because I just happened to be playing DS/DST while SoD 2 was in development and when they asked their community how they should handle the games difficulty: Some people wanted it too easy, others wanted it too hard, and some were happy with it staying on par with the original state of decay: They couldn’t make every group of players happy without alienating the other groups… UNTIL I suggested they add content sliders much like the ones that have existed in DS/DST since 2013…

I saw the potential behind what turning on/off certain features had behind it and SOD 2 is Proof that it works…

Now if only Klei would dedicate maybe an entire team of devs to ramp this up to 11 I’ll finally have the game I’ve always known DS/DST was always capable of.

[Maxposting]

23 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Thats what a difficulty mode is in any game you have EVER Played.. and that’s what I’ve been trying to express here in these forums for several years now, “Difficulty” is only a “Content Slider” in disguise

Not really though in most games.

The "difficulty" as you call it is a mere illusion.

It feels like a waste of developer's time to implement every single possibility for the toggleable, optional settings, some (perhaps most, I can't really speak for the majority and I shouldn't) players won't ever fully use in a normal playthrough.

[SinancoTheBest]

On 1/23/2022 at 7:07 PM, Cheggf said:

Disease was a garbage and unfun mechanic. Nearly no one has complained about its removal since it didn't really add anything and just asked you to shovel your plants periodically.

I digress, I think disease was a well intentioned but badly implemented mechanism. I really wish Klei expanded on it instead of removing it.

The concept that Grass, Saplings and Bushes in the nature having an advantage over their dug up versions is simply superb design. It ads a small realistic "choice" of digging or not digging the plants in the area and makes the natural plants more valuable. It adds value to natural savannas, grasslands and pigguard setpieces. Providing gameplay choices and comparative advantages to entities is game design at its best. Now the natural unshoveled resources hold 0 value.

Why it sucked is because it was implemented terribly- spotting them earlier on wasn't easy, players are very likely to ignore picking grass n such in the regular gameplay loop and most importantly it had no solution- once plants get diseased, they are destroyed and they remove an important finite resources (tuft, sappling, bushes) from the server.

1) There should have been an expensive consumable craftable to cure diseased plants

2) Game should register destroyed sapling, grass tufts and bushes and regenerate them in their respective home biomes through world regeneration.

3) Further preventative measures could have been implemented with newer additions such as fertilizing plants with growth formula making them immune to disease for a year and fertilizing them with tree jam making them completely immune to disease.

If these were implemented, I think disease would have been a pretty good mechanic- you'd be punished for not caring for your plants but not as severely and annoyingly as completely destroying all your plants. If you had diseased plants, you'd face options- weather to destroy them and let the world regrowth give them back to you or pay for the expensive plasticise. 

 

Sadly, the devs currently just abandoned the idea and there is literally nothing to weigh in the decision of removing entire biomes from their resources, nor is there a value to many biomes around the world once they are first visited and stripped from their resources.