I hand an epiphany, maybe I sound dumb idk

[-Penta-]

2 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

because I found his speed fun

c_give ("cane")

3 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

Because a lot of actual Wolfgang players liked playing with his speed. It doesn't have to be super useful to be fun. Same reason anybody plays a character that isn't the strongest, Wolfgang could be played for his unique skillset. I don't see how that's very hard to understand, He was a very fun character to many people who played him, and had been playing him for 8 years.

Then play WX? Or maybe Wormwood?

[Well-met]

your point is perfectly fine OP.

the only thing I would be ashamed of is your horrid thread title

[Porkus]

4 minutes ago, -Penta- said:

Then play WX? Or maybe Wormwood?

Ignore the fact that Wolfgang has had speed longer than Wormwood, and got it at the same time as wx. Also I do play them, but speed isn't the only thing in Wolfgang's skillset, and also those characters aren't great for speedrunning or can't use their speed in them, another fun thing.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, Third Porkus said:

Ignore the fact that Wolfgang has had speed longer than Wormwood, and got it at the same time as wx. Also I do play them, but speed isn't the only thing in Wolfgang's skillset, and also those characters aren't great for speedrunning or can't use their speed in them, another fun thing.

Beefalo.

see? That works both ways.

(im not trying to be a jerk, but if you try to discredit everything I say.. I can do the same.)

[Porkus]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

Beefalo.

I'm talking about fun not strength. You mentioned his speed being very strong when exploring, so I mention beefalo. I mention speed being fun and you mention beefalo, which are too separate areas

[sudoku]

10 minutes ago, -Penta- said:

*With no offense intended*, but you're basically acting like a spoiled little kid throwing a temper tantrum because your favorite toy broke, and you're not going to get what you want by acting like this whenever something doesn't go your way, buddy. Also, no one cares that you're the world record holder on any speedrun category, your opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else's because of that.

I dont see them as acting spoiled at all. Their simply providing their own insight and analysis and backing it up with, what i think, are solid arguments. Isnt that what a forum is for?

I have no horse in this race when it comes to the speed boost, but i enjoy hearing the devs insight as well as hearing from people who feel they have a solid basis for challenging it. This is probably one of the more high end discussions these forums has to offer atm.

[Porkus]

2 minutes ago, sudoku said:

I dont see them as acting spoiled at all. Their simply providing their own insight and analysis and backing it up with, what i think, are solid arguments. Isnt that what a forum is for?

I have no horse in this race when it comes to the speed boost, but i enjoy hearing the devs insight as well as hearing from people who feel they have a solid basis for challenging it. This is probably one of the more high end discussions these forums has to offer atm.

True, a lot of criticism for two separate opinions

[Cloakingsumo198]

20 minutes ago, -Penta- said:

Okay, so, let me get this straight: You agree that they buffed Wolfgang, said countless times that his speed boost made him only slightly better than any of the other characters, and even pointed out how not only is the new Wolfgang faster against certain bosses, but also how Wolfgang world record speedruns aren't going away. Then, answer me this: Why does it matter that he no longer has his speed boost?

*With no offense intended*, but you're basically acting like a spoiled little kid throwing a temper tantrum because your favorite toy broke, and you're not going to get what you want by acting like this whenever something doesn't go your way, buddy. Also, no one cares that you're the world record holder on any speedrun category, your opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else's because of that.

So much insight and constructive criticism, giving backing and reasoning to all their own opinions, being respectful to other user's opinions aswell. Not. I don't get why you act so high and mighty and how about you speak only for yourself, trying to bring down others doesn't change the value of your opinion either.

[JoeW]

Please keep things constructive, polite and without personal attacks. 

Thanks. 

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, sudoku said:

I dont see them as acting spoiled at all. Their simply providing their own insight and analysis and backing it up with, what i think, are solid arguments. Isnt that what a forum is for?

I have no horse in this race when it comes to the speed boost, but i enjoy hearing the devs insight as well as hearing from people who feel they have a solid basis for challenging it. This is probably one of the more high end discussions these forums has to offer atm.

Yeah but, are the people factoring the speed removal as unjustified also factoring in all the other changes his rework did and may even still be as of yet to do to him? That is the real horse in this race..

Rather a select handful of people liked it or not: Wolfgang WAS going to be changed, and: Either with more tweaks to his current rework, or new content added to the game later- Would he still need that speed perk?

They're arguing how he USED to Play but news flash: not a single reworked character still plays the way they USED to play.. I challenge any of you to name even ONE that still does.

Wendy? Nope, Abigail’s flower no longer drops at the location Abigail dies in, she’s no longer suiciding herself into swamp tentacles, the flower now never needs to leave Wendy’s inventory and if she wants to get the best use out of Abigail she has to do quests for dead ghosts for a special crafting ingredient to boost her sisters power.

Webber? Hahaha Nurse Spiders, Water Spiders, Switcherdoodle cookies, ability to upgrade/downgrade spider dens.. NEXT!

Willow? Sure.. she totally didn’t have an infinite durability lighter once upon a time ago.

Woodie? Well I guess if you don’t find transforming randomly every full moon as new into one of 3 different forms new: then no I guess he didn’t change either.

Wes? The challenge character people played because he had nothing useful at all: sure he totally doesn’t have a completely free speed perk to gather items in the early game days faster.

Seriously name ONE.

My point is: If Klei felt Wolfgang’s changes didn’t fit having speed then there’s justification in removing it because of those changes.

You can’t compare pre-rework to rework characters because they just don’t play the same afterwards anymore.

[-Penta-]

5 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

So much insight and constructive criticism, giving backing and reasoning to all their own opinions, being respectful to other user's opinions aswell. Not. I don't get why you act so high and mighty and how about you speak only for yourself, trying to bring down others doesn't change the value of your opinion either.

Ahem, sorry, but I don't know if you know who you're talking to. For, you see, I hold the world record for the most prestigious DST speedrun: the seedless Flare% category. So, therefore, it should follow that my opinion and my arguments are automatically above anyone else's, and objectivelly correct 100% of the time. Sorry, but better luck next time!

[viberr]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

You can’t compare pre-rework to rework characters because they just don’t play the same afterwards anymore.

*loud screeching sounds* 

do you guys hear that? I think the fax machine is dispensing some fax 

 

[sudoku]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yeah but, are the people factoring the speed removal as unjustified also factoring in all the other changes his rework did and may even still be as of yet to do to him? That is the real horse in this race..

Rather a select handful of people liked it or not: Wolfgang WAS going to be changed, and: Either with more tweaks to his current rework, or new content added to the game later- Would he still need that speed perk?

They're arguing how he USED to Play but news flash: not a single reworked character still plays the way they USED to play.. I challenge any of you to name even ONE that still does.

Wendy? Nope, Abigail’s flower no longer drops at the location Abigail dies in, she’s no longer suiciding herself into swamp tentacles, the flower now never needs to leave Wendy’s inventory and if she wants to get the best use out of Abigail she has to do quests for dead ghosts for a special crafting ingredient to boost her sisters power.

Webber? Hahaha Nurse Spiders, Water Spiders, Switcherdoodle cookies, ability to upgrade/downgrade spider dens.. NEXT!

Willow? Sure.. she totally didn’t have an infinite durability lighter once upon a time ago.

Woodie? Well I guess if you don’t find transforming randomly every full moon as new into one of 3 different forms new: then no I guess he didn’t change either.

Wes? The challenge character people played because he had nothing useful at all: sure he totally doesn’t have a completely free speed perk to gather items in the early game days faster.

Seriously name ONE.

My point is: If Klei felt Wolfgang’s changes didn’t fit having speed then there’s justification in removing it because of those changes.

You can’t compare pre-rework to rework characters because they just don’t play the same afterwards anymore.

You left out the one who actually does play like she does before: Wigfrid.

[QuartzBeam]

3 minutes ago, sudoku said:

You left out the one who actually does play like she does before: Wigfrid.

And Winona...

[Mike23Ua]

6 minutes ago, sudoku said:

You left out the one who actually does play like she does before: Wigfrid.

I thought so too at first, but then I actually played around with her song scrolls a bit more, group healing, a scroll that frightens enemies away, a scroll that keeps weapons from breaking longer- she changed just as much as anyone else..

And to quote Klei’s own words:

Edit: The once a month part was changed, but the original promise of what their intent for reworks was: has not.

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

8 minutes ago, -Penta- said:

Ahem, sorry, but I don't know if you know who you're talking to. For, you see, I hold the world record for the most prestigious DST speedrun: the seedless Flare% category. So, therefore, it should follow that my opinion and my arguments are automatically above anyone else's, and objectivelly correct 100% of the time. Sorry, but better luck next time!

Person giving their background before stating why they are dissatisfied with changes vs someone acting sarcastic and throwing out casual insults

I like when people state whether they are either a new upcoming wolf main or a old grizzled veteran, console or PC it gives alot more perspective

[viberr]

1 minute ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Person giving their background before stating why they are dissatisfied with changes vs someone acting sarcastic and throwing out casual insults

 

you guys aren't even debating anymore

can you both stop? 

or otherwise you might get a penalty point

[-Penta-]

7 minutes ago, viberr said:

you guys aren't even debating anymore

can you both stop? 

or otherwise you might get a penalty point

I'm literally just joking around at this point, but sure. It's not like continuing this is going to be productive, especially if I'm expected to be mocked by someone and not mock them back.

[Yuuko]

40 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yeah but, are the people factoring the speed removal as unjustified also factoring in all the other changes his rework did and may even still be as of yet to do to him? That is the real horse in this race..

new Wolfgang's perk is literally a tax of time.  In order to obtain the mightiness buff you MUST stand still for a certain amount of time.  The amount of time varies, but there is no point at which Wolfgang's time is not taxed for his "perk."  Each day you can calculate how many attacks, chops, or mining picks you saved against how much time you spent gaining mighty and see if you actually benefitted from his perk.  Its not an easy thing to figure because, similar to his speed, you can't just do 1 thing all day.  Before you were losing efficiency every time you weren't moving or attacking.  Now you lose efficiency any time you aren't attacking, chopping, or mining.  Its the same game, except now we have even less things that make his perk efficient.

As entertained as some people seem by working out in his gym, the entire mightiness system can easily be a trap wasting more time then you gain.

Spoiler

In the end of this video we see how well Wolfgang does against Wigfrid, as well as a 1x damage mod character.

imo - in changing Wolfgang they should have stayed closer to the people who actually play him, or swung for the fences and completely recreated him to be something that would appeal to more people in general.  As it sits right now I predict the pick rate of Wolfgang is going to drop which I would think is a pretty solid objective measure of a failed rework.

I really hope Klei circles back around, eats their pride on this one, and gives it another go.  They did change Wendy immediately after release to better align with the players who actually used her.  I still feel Klei does good things, I just think they didn't really give this refresh an honest effort.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 hours ago, zarklord_klei said:

To give an example, lets take a look at the competitive scene for Super Smash Bros Brawl, in that game there are 35 characters you can choose from, but in the competitive scene you only have two options(if you're wanting to win): Meta Knight (the literal best character in the game) and Olimar (the only character with a doable matchup against Meta Knight), so despite having 35 characters, those are really fake choices, and in reality there is 2 choices(again if you want to win).

Now I am by no means saying the DST is a competitive game, or that DST needs to be balanced like a competitive game, but if a measure of balance isn't provided, our cast of 18 characters would suffer the same problem. While there are 18 characters, if you only had 1 or 2 "real" choices, we have defeated the purpose of having a wide variety of characters.
With that said, unless everything is completely identical there will always be a "best character" and a "worst character", but if the best character isn't significantly greater than any other character, and the worst character isn't significantly worse than any other character you have a game with lots of compelling character choices.

Now was Wolfgang the "meta knight" of our game? Kinda, obviously the parallel isn't perfect, and the game isn't competitive, but he had a lot of traits that pushed him into that direction pre rework, and while people can play the game however they want, its not a good look for our game to have such a large range of characters, all completely overshadowed by pre rework Wolfgang, when he is effectively the best to second best at just about anything (as an example, in farming Wormwood is the best, but the completely free 1.25x speed boost he got meant that even though not by much, Wolfgang would consistently be the second best at farming, obviously there are exceptions, like if you want to use Wickerbottom's books to grow the crops, but there are limitations on those that might make them undesirable in certain situations), again there are lots of exceptions, but as a general rule you could look at any task in the game, and Wolfgang would probably be the best or second best character to use for it(because of his speed).

When you look at it from that perspective, it becomes clear that he needed to lose his speed, not because he was OP, but because he was significantly overshadowing other characters. In terms of a single "best character for doing it all" it was pretty hard to say that Wolfgang wasn't that character, and breaking that and making what your planning on doing be relevant for picking your character(especially at the start of the world when you won't have the celestial portal), is a great thing in my opinion.

imo you are right about the game having a minimum of balance (x6 damage didnt get nerfed but speed did..) but if we are nerfing characters that can do things better than any body overshadowing the rest of the cast why wigfrid, wendy and woodie rework took that route? literally there is no reason to pick wolfgang over these 3 characters (and is kinda what you see in pubs according to the charts if we add wilson) and with the addition of wanda makes less sense (unless we are taking account early mid game where wand doesnt have relativistic traveling speed). I think the refresh should  make characters to reach that level of complexity as that 4 have and, if the company decides that the characters are so strong for the game maybe the solution is to tune up the content to match the new perks

is always funnier having strong stuff than underwhelming. If you can beat most of the dangers with DS core items, people wont be interested on invest time farming what ever needed for something that doesnt really saves time or is noticeable (walter slingshot, barnacles, etc).

Another way to balance things is to make them powerful but needing skill (wandaa backstep watch for example). Why walter's slingshot is weak? because is damage from a safe distance and you dont really need to aim or hold the slingshot, nothing interesting, just hold F for "free" damage (and underwhelming crowd control effects). Why is underwhelming even when is safe? because you can do more with hambat and log suit (DS items)  but if instead of "hold F" for damage the slingshot would have a lot more damage and interesting mechanic that rewards you when performing well and punish when not (like forge dart's special atack) would make the character a lot more fun, balanced since isnt a "free" thing, you need to work for it and will be actually useful

is the same reason for what people claim that wanda and wendy are fun. You need to manage something and the better you perform the more powerful the character is. For wolfgang atleast we get the need of managing the meter during fighs, less often as before but more dangerous if you dont pay attention

and dont get me wrong i like the refresh, not what i was expecting (i though he would be buffed) but is fun for me. The problem is that he was already fun, for me not that much long term worlds, so i can understand why people is angry and i dont get why he cant have a 10% or 5% speed boost while mighty because still not being so worth to keep the meter up and might calm the wolfgang dissapointed fans. Playing him feels like an easier but more "annoying" (still, im having fun with him and i think is less annoying that farming food because yes) wanda since both have a countdown

 

those are my 2cents

 

edit: and i forgot the most important point. I did a world with wolfgang to learn how to beat the bosses, my next world was with a weaker character to learn how to beat them with defualt damage character. My point is that not being strong is also a upside to be choosen in this game (for that exists wes) and i guess that being stronger or easier is something that klei wanna keep for how overwhelming is dst. Is healthy for the game, even if not for the forums xD, to have different characters to ajust the difficulty

i was expecting op and interesting refresh for max, wx and wicker, now i only expect interesting refresh xD

[minespatch]

1 hour ago, -Penta- said:

c_give ("cane")

Then play WX? Or maybe Wormwood?

On 12/19/2021 at 1:13 AM, minespatch said:

Wolfgang speed idea: Wormwood update: Coffee beans

On 12/19/2021 at 1:04 AM, minespatch said:

Wolfgang speed idea: Cane 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So both of my jokes combined.

 

[HowlVoid]

I think that example you gave Zark is just too flawed, not because DST isn't a competitive game, but because DST isn't a fighting game. 

Comparing a fighting game to a sandbox game is just out there... Very much like comparing oranges and apples. The most popular character in the game is Wendy and it's because she trivializes every single non boss encounter in the game. Hounds? Gone. Spiders? Gone. Pigs? Gone. 

So are you going to nerf Wendy next? 

The next problem is that Wolfgang wasn't even nerfed at all, with his more consistent damage more than making up for the loss in speed. 

Then nerfing Wolfgang for something so trivial, because you want other characters to shine? That's a big, big slap in the face to Wolfgang mains. I honestly thought you guys had a better reason than that. You don't cut off your legs to get more use out of your arms. This goes back to Wolfgang not even being the most popular character in the game. 

I think it's funny cause in the grand scheme of things Wolfgang became more of what he was, but stronger. All that was done is make him more boring while changing nothing at all. I have tried and tried to deal with the meter but it's just so unintuitive. We need more tools to deal with it and Wolfgang needs to be expanded upon outside of battle. 

My final note is that I think the team went about nerfing the wrong thing... I think his damage should have been nerfed a bit honestly to what the average was pre rework, like 85%? And then expanded from there.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

btw, i wrote a wall of text defending wolfgang

just saying

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

My final note is that I think the team went about needing the wrong thing... I think his damage should have been nerfed a bit honestly to what the average was pre rework, like 85%? And then expanded from there.

or just change how volt goat jelly works so we dont fight with 20k monsters dealing 400 damage per second...

[minespatch]

Why do people want Wolfgang the hedgehog? He looks more like Professor Robotnik to me.

 

[Porkus]

48 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

They're arguing how he USED to Play but news flash: not a single reworked character still plays the way they USED to play.. I challenge any of you to name even ONE that still does.

Wigfrid, you forgot wigfrid who plays the same and is closest to wolfgang out of any other character

26 minutes ago, -Penta- said:

I'm literally just joking around at this point, but sure. It's not like continuing this is going to be productive, especially if I'm expected to be mocked by someone and not mock them back.

You were not mocked until you came into a discussion by insulting others