I hand an epiphany, maybe I sound dumb idk

[viberr]

35 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

This guy shows up late to the party and misses all the debates. Then spreads his objectively wrong opinion to people already done debating, just go read the fourms.

well that's a bit harsh, and besides what I said is true, you two are the only ones debating, and everyone else? they already gave up debating because it's a lost cause 

so yes, you are the only two I've seen complaining.

 

[Toroic]

5 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Most of the complaints were in the beta thread the week they had that open.  Since then, most of the ppl gave up completely and moved on (no longer playing wolfgang.)  I've avoided Wolfgang threads here because I'm pretty sure he's just gonna be what he is and don't think saying anything will drive any changes.  I think Klei wants him to be what he is now, something few people will actually pick or stick with :\ 

imo this is kinda bad - I think removing the speed was good, but to say "we won't do x no matter what" is a pretty closed minded way to design something.  Its not like speed perks don't exist with other characters...  Do they actually HATE Wolfgang or something?

idk about that :\ he didn't do anything that really showed you he was strong.  He lifted what was probably fake weights, because what he did next was also fake.  He didn't help pull the elephant out of the way of the train, and the shadow muscles helped him lift it :\ Its like they want Wolfgang to be this guys

instead of this guy

and that really makes me feel bad for Wolfgang :\

I’m really struggling to give you the benefit of the doubt when you say things like “Wolfgang is a fake strongman” because it requires a lack of knowledge in several key areas.

Firstly, in the time period Wolfgang is from, there is no synthol to fake having large muscles, so the only way to be as muscular as Wolfgang is is through training.

Secondly, why would Wolfgang use fake weights when he legitimately is strong?  You see him curling a similar sized weight when alone on the train, do you suspect that was fake too?

Thirdly, the whole structure of the short was to establish a few things.

1) Wolfgang cares about being strong, and he is

2) Wolfgang is fearful

3) While Wolfgang is strong, he is still humanly strong which is why the circus act is deceptive.  No one can support the weight of an elephant that size.

4) Wolfgang wanted to help with the elephant out of the train, but couldn’t get there in time.  This creates feelings of inadequacy.

5) When saving Max by lifting the train, Wolf got a taste of shadow power which is far beyond anything he could achieve naturally.

6) The way he looks at Max and then his hands, combined with 4 and 5 explains why Wolf was willing to make a Faustian bargain.  Desire for strength, feelings of inadequacy and fear, and a taste of overwhelming power fully explain how Wolfgang came to be trapped in the constant.

The implication is that Wolfgang became mighty to begin with as a response to his fearful nature, but even as humanly strong as he became, it wasn’t enough.  
 

The embarrassment of ruining a performance being scared of a mouse, being unable to help rescue the elephant touch on Wolfgang’s core fears.  Being overwhelmed by fear, and his strength being unable to help or unnecessary.

This creates tension that is then resolved when shadow magic gives him all the power he could ever dream of having, the power to save others, and having had a taste he’s driven to want more.

Nowhere in the short is there any implication that Wolf is a fake strongman, the deception is part of the way a circus operates.

[sudoku]

11 minutes ago, zarklord_klei said:

First off I am a Wolfgang main, and I still am, though now I actually have a reason to play other characters, which is a good thing

i appreciate the insight on this, but this statement is wierd to me. I get Wolfgang was considered strong balance wise but why is it a good thing that the main takeaway is that theres more of a reason to play other characters.

Why couldnt he get his nerf, and also get more depth to his perk that a usual rework provides, or to quote the team on this "give him more things that will make players like him more"? 

I know it was controversial for a time but Woodie got his basic one transformation wereform overhauled into 3 sepearate forms giving more player choice and depth.

Why was Wolfgangs flat boring 2x dmg modifier not looked at as needing more depth and given a similar treatment?

[Cloakingsumo198]

3 minutes ago, viberr said:

well that's a bit harsh, and besides what I said is true, you two are the only ones debating, and everyone else? they already gave up debating because it's a lost cause 

so yes, you are the only two I've seen complaining.

 

It's not harsh when you state everything you say so proudly, I've said the debates are over, and there was no lost cause people gave their piece to be heard it's now up to klei to decide. Now all that's out are suggestions looking forward to making wolf feel more fluid and intuitive, I've only seen wolfgangs have more of a reason to say their piece about the changes than all the other people calling this rework "perfect" it has affected them the most.  The only loud obnoxious responses I've gotten from both sides is "return speed only", "nerf Wolfgang only" cause they aren't giving ideas to fix and tweak what we've just got and aren't gonna budge from their frankly, boring opinion. 

[Milordo]

5 hours ago, Shosuko said:

 

imo this is kinda bad - I think removing the speed was good, but to say "we won't do x no matter what" is a pretty closed minded way to design something.  Its not like speed perks don't exist with other characters...  Do they actually HATE Wolfgang or something?

 

Even me, who i was fine with the new wolf (but still open for others ideas, like the perk of him being scared really similar to mine linked to combact), i'm outraged, no, furious about discovering this information. As i said: 

5 hours ago, Milordo said:

It's cool when an indie company, who has been for years the flag of it and inspiration for many others, now transform into a normal company and starting to behave more as a normal shitty Triple AAA company. Don't you love it right? 

This is NOWHERE the right behaviour to have, especially to a character like this. I'm not surprised if in the far future Klei will start to behave as X videogame company.w

27 minutes ago, sudoku said:

I think their original goal was flawed from the start.

It could be an excuse too. Wolfgang IS the bottom as picked character, even Wes and Wicker has more high rate pick than Wolf. 

In about 35 people who i teached and showed Don't Starve NOBODY of them chose Wolfgang. Only 1 person, YES only 1, picked for 20 days Wolfgang just to feel the strong raw damage. So not for the character or beauty, but for gameplay. By this Klei needed to be focused much more on the gameplay to catch more people but they literally reveal to not care. 

I guess Wurt doesn't feel anymore alone, now Wolf can accompany her.

 

[viberr]

9 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

and there was no lost cause

what I meant is Klei themselves said that wolfgang is just not getting his speed back.

but I am sorry if I came off as obnoxious or annoying, I just like stating my opinion(even if it's dog water) 

 

 

[HowlVoid]

Tbh a statement that speed wasn't coming back, especially if it was as the beta was being released would have been welcome. I for one would have respected the teams decision and immediately moved on there and then. 

[QuartzBeam]

47 minutes ago, sudoku said:

i appreciate the insight on this, but this statement is wierd to me. I get Wolfgang was considered strong balance wise but why is it a good thing that the main takeaway is that theres more of a reason to play other characters.

Why couldnt he get his nerf, and also get more depth to his perk that a usual rework provides, or to quote the team on this "give him more things that will make players like him more"? 

I know it was controversial for a time but Woodie got his basic one transformation wereform overhauled into 3 sepearate forms giving more player choice and depth.

Why was Wolfgangs flat boring 2x dmg modifier not looked at as needing more depth and given a similar treatment?

Wolfgang has gotten plenty of things to make players like him more. He can kite while wearing the world's tankiest armor, he can carry the 2nd largest (not to mention fire and waterproof) backpack without issue, he can chop, mine and hammer at 2/3rds of the time if not even less, he is an absolute beast with the Shield of Terror, is a better sailor (or will be once they do something about that oar speed cap), can carry the shadow piece and moon altar parts without the hassle of a beefalo and he has higher DPS overall while consuming way less food than he did before.

Honestly, I think the refresh has milked the strongman concept for all that it was worth.

I saw you mention something about special attacks earlier, but I really don't see how that would fit Wolfgang. He is a strongman, not a martial artist, so he relies on brute force rather than technique. And there's only so much you can do with brute force. (And I'd say the refresh has done it all.)

[sudoku]

1 minute ago, QuartzBeam said:

Wolfgang has gotten plenty of things to make players like him more. He can kite while wearing the world's tankiest armor, he can carry the 2nd largest (not to mention fire and waterproof) backpack without issue, he can chop, mine and hammer at 2/3rds of the time if not even less, he is an absolute beast with the Shield of Terror, is a better sailor (or will be once they do something about that oar speed cap), can carry the shadow piece and moon altar parts without the hassle of a beefalo and he has higher DPS overall while consuming way less food than he did before.

Honestly, I think the refresh has milked the strongman concept for all that it was worth.

I saw you mention something about special attacks earlier, but I really don't see how that would fit Wolfgang. He is a strongman, not a martial artist, so he relies on brute force rather than technique. And there's only so much you can do with brute force. (And I'd say the refresh has done it all.)

This is all true. He gained some incentives to doing things already in the game, but wouldnt you agree that it is a relatively tame refresh compared to others?

And about combat abilities being tied to martial arts and not strength, well that is up to how klei implements and portrays the abilities which im sure they have the creativity to do so. But to say outright hat being strong wouldnt lend a person to being able to perform feats of strength in combat is silly.

[QuartzBeam]

1 minute ago, sudoku said:

This is all true. He gained some incentives to doing things already in the game, but wouldnt you agree that it is a relatively tame refresh compared to others?

Yeah, but as I said, brute force can only be made so interesting. You can see that in all sorts of games: The wizards get to harness the elements, conjure illusions, controls minds and manipulate the very fabric of reality, while the warriors get to... bonk things harder on the head.

 

4 minutes ago, sudoku said:

And about combat abilities being tied to martial arts and not strength, well that is up to how klei implements and portrays the abilities which im sure they have the creativity to do so. But to say outright hat being strong wouldnt lend a person to being able to perform feats of strength in combat is silly.

You got me thinking about the scene from God of War (PS4) where Kratos uproots a tree and whacks someone with it. Of course, Kratos is a rage-fueled killing machine who was literally raised to be a soldier, whereas Wolfgang is a cowardly, gentle giant who has only ever used his strength for spectacle.

Anyway, it's easy to talk about how someone else could surely come up with something, but often what is cool to think about does not necessarily translate well into a given game. On the subject of special combat moves, the devs also have to consider how these would fit into the control scheme and whether they would actually be a meaningful addition to combat.

They're clearly avoiding mapping more abilities to buttons, hence why most new abilities are tied to items instead. And there are countless examples, across numerous games, of special abilities that either sacrifice direct damage for a status effect that ultimately proves useless (and are thus never used) or just deal even more direct damage (and thus strategy boils down to hit them with your strongest attack). DST already has some examples of the former (Wigfrid's instant-use songs, or Walter's slow down rounds).

So it's nowhere as easy as it seems, let alone when we're talking about a character whose skillset boils down to "hit stuff harder" and "lift heavy stuff". Which reminds me: they need to, like, double the damage of tossed dumbells, so Wolfgang has a neat little AoE nuke option.

 

[1bubbainpa]

14 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

Yeah, but as I said, brute force can only be made so interesting. You can see that in all sorts of games: The wizards get to harness the elements, conjure illusions, controls minds and manipulate the very fabric of reality, while the warriors get to... bonk things harder on the head.

 

Pyromancer willow when

[Mike23Ua]

First off: I didn’t know the Klei devs actually play the game, (most developers don’t play the games they make..) so props to you Zark!

Second: Is this rework finalized & the team moving on or do you guys feel like you may tweak/change a few things before moving on?

(im not talking about bringing back speed.. I mean more stuff he can do or a different way of playing the game with “Might”)

If you can’t answer these questions I will totally understand & respect that: but I think myself & others would like to know is Wolfgang’s Rework over or is there still some ideas being rolled around to make him the Mightiest (when you guys come back from the holiday break!  )

My friend used to be a Wolfgang main until he switched for Woodie- He has yet to play since the Rework but I bet he will love throwing dumbells at small birds (Woodie hates birds anyway)

[Gi-Go]

3 hours ago, zarklord_klei said:

First off I am a Wolfgang main, and I still am, though now I actually have a reason to play other characters, which is a good thing.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Beefalo rework, characters reworks, dlc characters added. THOSE are reasons to play other characters. The only thing removing speed achieved is it removed reasons to play Wolfgang. I'm serious, why would I play him now, other than the fact that I like his persona?

Double damage? Wanda has both double damage and double range.

200 hp? This game has armor with 95% value.

1.5 working speed? Anyone can hire pigs or use Bearger. 

Carries heavy things? So is beefalo. 

I have a strong feeling you haven't really played your own game in 2 years or so. 

[sudoku]

10 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I have strong feeling you haven't really played your own game in 2 years or so. 

zark used to be a modder, it was his passion for the game that got him hired at klei. I respect his thinking when it comes to the refresh, you can challenge it but try and be respectful.

[QuartzBeam]

18 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

1.5 working speed? Anyone can hire pigs or use Bearger.

I don't think either of those are an option for chopping Sporecaps or mining all those statues in the ruins.

20 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Carries heavy things? So is beefalo. 

Your grammar is blowing my mind.

 

[Gi-Go]

19 minutes ago, sudoku said:

zark used to be a modder, it was his passion for the game that got him hired at klei. I respect his thinking when it comes to the refresh, you can challenge it but try and be respectful.

There is nothing wrong with not playing for 2 years. I assume devs are bizy people and didn't had time to properly digest how much their updates changed don't starve. Wolfgang is not the only character worth playing anymore, and haven't been that for about 2 years now. 

9 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

I don't think either of those are an option for chopping Sporecaps or mining all those statues in the ruins.

Your grammar is blowing my mind.

 

My grammar is as good as one can expect from someone who learned English as a hobby. 

And while mining statues in 3 less hits is nice, it's not exsactly a perk I'd see myself looking for when I pick charcater. As for spore shrooms, no argument there, this is very nice for toadstool. I guess that's what Wolfgang is good for. Toadstool. Ah, if only he had useful drops. 

10 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Anyone else find it kinda irksome that they out Wolfgang as a fake strongman in his video?  Like they don't just outright nerf him, they make him a fraud too :\ 

Naaaah, I actually liked it a lot. I always thought that strongman has no business in circus. I mean what would be his act? He lifts dumbbells? Impressive I guess but not exsactly flashy like circus is meant to be.  And in his short we finally learned that his act is a superhuman who can lift small elephant with ease. Now it makes perfect sence why he is the star of the show. Because nothing is more impressive than doing the impossble. 

He is a fraud, but I'd rather have him as a fraud than unrealistically strong man. Makes him more human and makes me like his character more. 

[BezKa]

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

This is absolutely ridiculous. Beefalo rework, characters reworks, dlc characters added. THOSE are reasons to play other characters. The only thing removing speed achieved is it removed reasons to play Wolfgang. I'm serious, why would I play him now, other than the fact that I like his persona?

Double damage? Wanda has both double damage and double range.

200 hp? This game has armor with 95% value.

1.5 working speed? Anyone can hire pigs or use Bearger. 

Carries heavy things? So is beefalo. 

I have a strong feeling you haven't really played your own game in 2 years or so. 

What is the point of any character then? All they can do is something other characters can do as well. Almost as if we were playing the same game, no matter the character. 

The way of getting a reason to playing other characters is by slowing Wolfgang down is to get the try-hards off their "meta" (whatever this word means at this point) and make them consider other options. If they want speedruns, who do they pick? Hard damage with hard upkeep? The fast character with trouble healing? The glass canon that will require good multitasking? The answer is the big guy who deals beefy damage and also speeds around like a car. It always is. 

If they want a long term world, what character do they start off with? The one with crowd control? The one that makes some mobs friendly while antagonizing others? The explorer one, with easy river crossing? Or the other explorer, with a beefalo included in the starter? The fighting one, that makes it easier to deal with mobs and kill bosses for early loot? Or the one that can speed around the map and kill anything in his path without regard? 

Some people don't have a problem with not being 100% efficient. They just allow themselves to take the game as it is, without taking every step thinking "If I went XYZ I would do this so much quicker/better".

But there are those who can't bear not being at 150% the entire time. And they can get stuck behind a character, an overpowered one, like our beloved Wolf who had almost no downsides, had absurd speed he never should have had, 2x multiplier and easy upkeep of the mighty form. I can very easily see a person getting stuck picking "the best thing" and never bothering to play anything else. Even more so, after the rework a bunch of people came around to declare Klei "ruined" Wolfgang and that they're dropping him like a wet rag bc their superduper overpower machine is no longer taking up 'all' the niches. That's a good thing. Maybe they will reconsider what they actually value in a character, instead getting it all for free. 

That's just one way of looking at it all. And as someone who knows what it feels like, I suggest getting off that hill and dying somewhere else. It's just really tiring after a while, and the longer you stay there, the harder it is to leave. 

 

[Gi-Go]

1 hour ago, BezKa said:

What is the point of any character then? All they can do is something other characters can do as well. Almost as if we were playing the same game, no matter the character. 

Every character has something only they can offer as a perk. 

Wilson has winter resistance. (Useless)

Willow has pocket campfire. (Useless)

Wolfgang has slightly better working capability. (Useless)

Wendy can croud control, has best minion, has best synergy with beefalo. 

Wx78 has best stats, best way to refill stats, highest movement speed. 

Wikerbottom can mega-farm reeds, farm grass better than others, has best dragonfly killing station, has good bee queen kill station, can do all kinds of fun shenanigans with tentacles not worth mentioning, easy and cheap fuelweaver, screen wide sleep perk worth using on plebs, best birds farm, and a bunch of food farms that are currently dead but meaby klei will show her pity later. 

Woodie has great ocean exploring, night vision, wood chopping capability worth paying attention to, cheapest combat abilities, and above all else exclusive mechanic to play around with. 

Wes has cheapest speed boost, more utility with batbat and ice staff. 

Maxwell has amazing gathering abilities. 

Wigfrid has immortality and weapons/weather pain durability increase. 

Webber has undying minions. 

Winona has boss farms, mob farms and double speed on refining (very nice after day 1000). 

Warly has voltgoat jelly, and fun downsides to play around with. 

Wortox has cheap teleporting and cheapest heal. Ability to forsefully save lives. 

Wormwood has the ability to be welcomed everywhere he goes, can make free living logs, can solve world hunger, cheap speed boost, very fun downsides to play around with. 

Wurt makes cheap roads, has fun downsides to play around with, and has army that dominates this world.

Walter has range weapon, and a chester/beefalo thing. (Useless) 

Wanda has eternal weapon with double range and damage, eternal revives, free i-frames, unique health bar to play around with, and teleporting with UNLIMITED potential. 

That's all. Only 4 characters suck nowdays. 

 

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

i didnt know that is more apreciated flat gameplays like WX's than fun and versatil ones like willow's...

[ILWES]

On 12/18/2021 at 4:33 AM, HowlVoid said:

Old Wolfgang isn't dead, it's gone entirely, and that's ok. 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

No, I'm not on drugs. I drank too much coffee, again.

 

Hes still in ds/rog/hamlet/shipwrecked btw

[HowlVoid]

3 minutes ago, ILWES said:

Hes still in ds/rog/hamlet/shipwrecked btw

From DST bud.

[Cloakingsumo198]

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

From DST bud.

We got a real comedian, a problem solver too, send him to the science team they need him.

[HowlVoid]

Just now, Cloakingsumo198 said:

We got a real comedian, a problem solver too, send him to the science team they need him.

I can't tell if you're praising me or mocking me, the forums have made a very paranoid man. 

Why not both?

[Cloakingsumo198]

28 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i didnt know that is more apreciated flat gameplays like WX's than fun and versatil ones like willow's...

Wx sucks!!!! In every way possible, from gameplay, to character, to mains, overall real bad. (I had a few wx mains as friends,funny guys still miss them)

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

I can't tell if you're praising me or mocking me, the forums have made a very paranoid man. 

Why not both?

Don't worry howl you're the only plant I can stand, i want this spider on the science team.

[HowlVoid]

3 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Don't worry howl you're the only plant I can stand, i want this spider on the science team.

Oh, you weren't even talking about me, well that's embarrassing.