Opinions on Wolfgang's Refresh?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, Gi-Go said:

Per hit I said per hit! The last thing I need is accurate damage calculation, when it's inaccurate anyways since it counts nonstop hitting which is not how you fight bosses - you kite and generally won't be able to do an extra hit mid dodges because of a slightly faster speed. 

just wanted to point it since some people dont know it an is useful info for figuts like CK

[Gi-Go]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

not from me, im horrible organizing at rushing stuff but what does wanda that wilson cant in 74 days?

im asking srly because i dont understand it except for the damage mod

From anyone. Just find me an all bosses -bearger first year speedrun. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, Gi-Go said:

From anyone. Just find me an all bosses -bearger first year speedrun. 

hard when every speed run video is recorded using wolfgang but i will try (there is the old helicapumba 60 days rush pre RoT)

can you show me wanda's 1 year rush?

[Gi-Go]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

hard when every speed run video is recorded using wolfgang but i will try (there is the old helicapumba 60 days rush pre RoT)

can you show me wanda's 1 year rush?

Cannot. Would love to record myself but my PC is broken and even if I'll fix I have 2 RAM. I barely can host caves much less record it. 

No idea if anyone even does speedruns these days. I do it for my personal amusement and haven't looked for anything speedrun related in 4 years.

All I know is that she can do it and with a stretch so for others it's impossble. Celestial champ is involved and must die before second autumn. This is mostly due to pearl quests being a drag unless you can visit her once a day instantly. 

I guess you could argue that this is not combat related but I say naaaaah preparations for combat are just as important as the combat itself so you better do that well too if you are a combat character. 

[Toros]

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

What you not get?

Wanda is best combat character because she can kill all bosses in the first year (minus bearger). Simple as that. 

Forced into using infinite weapon with double range that deal same damage per hit as Wolfgang with wet morning star. What a nightmare. 

Your utility weapons all suck. Every one of them. 

Also for the last time Wanda is not a glass cannon God damn it, she can take 40 hits from spiders or hounds without healing. She can take 8 hits from dragonfly without healing, and 5 more per each heal use. And yes, I'm talking old Wanda only. 

To hell with it, call wigfrid the best fighter for all of her silly combat perks. 

Infinite is not the same as refuelable.  Wanda uses a fraction of a nightmare fuel each hit, which means she nreds to spend time farming nightmare fuel to compensate.

Wolf does equivalent dps with a dark sword due to Wanda’s slower attack speed, and slightly superior dps with a morning star vs wet targets.

With blowdarts, Wolf does 50% more dps at significantly longer range, and unlike the morning star volt jelly works on that damage for a total of 600 damage per blowdart.

Wanda has no options to get boosted damage beyond the range of her whip, and she can’t use the shield of terror any better than Wilson can.

I’m skeptical of both the feasibility and value of “only Wanda can beat every boss in a year”, but perhaps more importantly fail to see how Wolfgang getting at best a cane in movement speed bonus changes anything.

[Cloakingsumo198]

20 minutes ago, Toros said:

Infinite is not the same as refuelable.  Wanda uses a fraction of a nightmare fuel each hit, which means she nreds to spend time farming nightmare fuel to compensate.

Wolf does equivalent dps with a dark sword due to Wanda’s slower attack speed, and slightly superior dps with a morning star vs wet targets.

With blowdarts, Wolf does 50% more dps at significantly longer range, and unlike the morning star volt jelly works on that damage for a total of 600 damage per blowdart.

Wanda has no options to get boosted damage beyond the range of her whip, and she can’t use the shield of terror any better than Wilson can.

I’m skeptical of both the feasibility and value of “only Wanda can beat every boss in a year”, but perhaps more importantly fail to see how Wolfgang getting at best a cane in movement speed bonus changes anything.

Wanda be teleportin

[Gi-Go]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Infinite is not the same as refuelable.  Wanda uses a fraction of a nightmare fuel each hit, which means she nreds to spend time farming nightmare fuel to compensate.

Wolf does equivalent dps with a dark sword due to Wanda’s slower attack speed, and slightly superior dps with a morning star vs wet targets.

With blowdarts, Wolf does 50% more dps at significantly longer range, and unlike the morning star volt jelly works on that damage for a total of 600 damage per blowdart.

Wanda has no options to get boosted damage beyond the range of her whip, and she can’t use the shield of terror any better than Wilson can.

I’m skeptical of both the feasibility and value of “only Wanda can beat every boss in a year”, but perhaps more importantly fail to see how Wolfgang getting at best a cane in movement speed bonus changes anything.

You never play Wanda huh? 1000 uses for clock from a stack of fuel dealing total of 140000 damage or so. You kill both shadows in 3 hits. Call it infinity weapon like it is. 

Ah yes, the "less damage cuz attack slower". Don't care didn't asked. Struggle to notice it making a difference when do fights. What I don't struggle is feeling difference in double range or not making weapons ever.

Please don't tell me you actually use darts. Whyyyyyyyyy........... that's like rushing ruins for pickaxeaxe cuz it has better damage than spear. So out of your way, you'd better hit things with ham. 

Since when is shield of terror a good item? You slapped helmet onto a tentacle spike and gave it eternal durability suddenly a new meta. 

As for the last part... if you aren't passionate about fighting bosses then why are you Wolfgang? I don't understand, he is boring as heck if you aren't doing a hyperactive playstyle. A Wilson on steroids. And if you are passionate I don't feel your passion. "Speed is gone but meh good enough still". Can't feel it my man.

Speed will make Wolfgang relevant again. Wanda dosen't have movement speed. Dosen't have row speed. Dosen't have work speed. Dosen't have as much hp. He could be a completely different boss rusher he would feel like a different charcater and not a just worse version of Wanda. All the perks add up when movement speed is involved making it quite nice. On their own they fall flat. 

 

[MondayNight]

3 hours ago, Toros said:

Infinite is not the same as refuelable.  Wanda uses a fraction of a nightmare fuel each hit, which means she nreds to spend time farming nightmare fuel to compensate.

Have a "naked" boat platform placed beside shore. Hop on it as Wanda. Equip Bone Helm and, to be on safe-side, some armor (Shadow one works best with this character) or, if beginning-to-mid game, a Shadow Amulet + helmet (Football, Mask of Terror, Thule recommended obviously). Sit in middle of cookie-boat and press F. Stop when you have 200-300 NF around boat (use appropriate mod to get such info). You can try the same with Mighty Wolf and Tail O' 3 Cats (you need to constantly kill Catcoons plus Tentacles too - those are finite per time unit): you won't even come close. Alarm Clock is self-sustaining via such method and, technically, can be called "infinite".

[Gi-Go]

15 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Have a "naked" boat platform placed beside shore. Hop on it as Wanda. Equip Bone Helm and, to be on safe-side, some armor (Shadow one works best with this character) or, if beginning-to-mid game, a Shadow Amulet + helmet (Football, Mask of Terror, Thule recommended obviously). Sit in middle of cookie-boat and press F. Stop when you have 200-300 NF around boat (use appropriate mod to get such info). You can try the same with Mighty Wolf and Tail O' 3 Cats (you need to constantly kill Catcoons plus Tentacles too - those are finite per time unit): you won't even come close. Alarm Clock is self-sustaining via such method and, technically, can be called "infinite".

Never heard of that one. Love it. 

But the thing about killing shadows in 3 hits, is that I don't neat to go out of my way for fuel. I eat raw meat and cooked monster meat as Wanda anyways as it's the fast food of the constant. Then I smack shadows. 

Fun fact about cooked monster meat - it deals 3 damage.

Everyone probably know this already but I discovered it first when I attempted to kill myself and was like "hmmm this is taking a while".

Now it's my favorite meal. 

[Picklesaurus]

11 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Never heard of that one. Love it. 

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

15 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Never heard of that one. Love it. 

But the thing about killing shadows in 3 hits, is that I don't neat to go out of my way for fuel. I eat raw meat and cooked monster meat as Wanda anyways as it's the fast food of the constant. Then I smack shadows. 

Fun fact about cooked monster meat - it deals 3 damage.

Everyone probably know this already but I discovered it first when I attempted to kill myself and was like "hmmm this is taking a while".

Now it's my favorite meal. 

Speaking of favorite meals raw mushrooms, raw meat, straight up lichen mmmmmhmmm perfect for the old Wolfgang.

[Toros]

3 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

You never play Wanda huh? 1000 uses for clock from a stack of fuel dealing total of 140000 damage or so. You kill both shadows in 3 hits. Call it infinity weapon like it is. 

Ah yes, the "less damage cuz attack slower". Don't care didn't asked. Struggle to notice it making a difference when do fights. What I don't struggle is feeling difference in double range or not making weapons ever.

Please don't tell me you actually use darts. Whyyyyyyyyy........... that's like rushing ruins for pickaxeaxe cuz it has better damage than spear. So out of your way, you'd better hit things with ham. 

Since when is shield of terror a good item? You slapped helmet onto a tentacle spike and gave it eternal durability suddenly a new meta. 

As for the last part... if you aren't passionate about fighting bosses then why are you Wolfgang? I don't understand, he is boring as heck if you aren't doing a hyperactive playstyle. A Wilson on steroids. And if you are passionate I don't feel your passion. "Speed is gone but meh good enough still". Can't feel it my man.

Speed will make Wolfgang relevant again. Wanda dosen't have movement speed. Dosen't have row speed. Dosen't have work speed. Dosen't have as much hp. He could be a completely different boss rusher he would feel like a different charcater and not a just worse version of Wanda. All the perks add up when movement speed is involved making it quite nice. On their own they fall flat. 

 

Instead of paragraph after paragraph of irrelevant information, explain how speed actually fixes Wolf vs Wanda in your opinion.

From what you’re telling me, speed won’t matter because Wanda can teleport and that is what gives her the important edge.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Can someone actually give me Wanda's downsides aside from slowly dying all the time, like what prevents people from just staying at her young age?

[Yuuko]

4 hours ago, Toros said:

Infinite is not the same as refuelable.  Wanda uses a fraction of a nightmare fuel each hit, which means she nreds to spend time farming nightmare fuel to compensate.

Wolf does equivalent dps with a dark sword due to Wanda’s slower attack speed, and slightly superior dps with a morning star vs wet targets.

Dark sword requires 5 nm fuel and 1 living log.  Recharging Alarming clock 0-full only costs 4 nm fuel.  Alarming clock advantage in hunting nm fuel is unparalleled in the game currently.  This weapon is more damage / resource efficient then any other consumable in the game, and its uses are not niche.

[Gi-Go]

It's nice. I love this community for creative stuff like this. Not that I'll use this ever, seems to be just as effective as land if you can kite. 

 

Have I ever mentioned alarm clock is my favorite thing added in this game? I play a self-build adventure event where starting weapon is a whip. It made me discover just how much utility double range has. Been stunlocking fuelweaver and ancient guardian before it became mainstream.

I'm forever grateful to klei for adding whip with good damage, even if it's not a celestial champ boss drop like I asked, and the decision probably has nothing to do with me requesting. 

Oof Wolfgang has nothing on it. 

1 minute ago, Toros said:

Instead of paragraph after paragraph of irrelevant information, explain how speed actually fixes Wolf vs Wanda in your opinion.

From what you’re telling me, speed won’t matter because Wanda can teleport and that is what gives her the important edge.

Okay okay. Wolfgang gets a single relevant perk that Wanda dosen't have and boom he is not a downgrade. That is all.

[Yuuko]

4 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Can someone actually give me Wanda's downsides aside from slowly dying all the time, like what prevents people from just staying at her young age?

There is no advantage to staying at her young age - but there is no advantage either.  You'd basically be playing Wilson with a different healing mechanic (gated heal spam but free constant heal) and more difficulty if you hit freeze / overheat / starvation.  With the prevalence of healing foods, I would consider "gated heal spam but free constant heal" a downside.  Perogies, trail mix, and just eating blue caps is basically free too.

You do eventually unlock her backtrek watches which are an obvious boon ofc, but idk how much those would help with speed run unless you got a lazy explorer from AG to deconstruct.

[Cloakingsumo198]

7 minutes ago, Toros said:

Instead of paragraph after paragraph of irrelevant information, explain how speed actually fixes Wolf vs Wanda in your opinion.

From what you’re telling me, speed won’t matter because Wanda can teleport and that is what gives her the important edge.

Toros I like your approach cause you make sense when balancing but you really don't make Wolfgang ever seem more fun with your ideas you never add more niches for his strength or more avenues to how wolf plays.  Small details like the harvest speed, and fast rowing are great together they make wolf seem and feel mighty.  But it needs to be fun when implemented and not just make sense on paper.

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

There is no advantage to staying at her young age - but there is no advantage either.  You'd basically be playing Wilson with a different healing mechanic (gated heal spam but free constant heal) and more difficulty if you hit freeze / overheat / starvation.  With the prevalence of healing foods, I would consider "gated heal spam but free constant heal" a downside.  Perogies, trail mix, and just eating blue caps is basically free too.

But isn't that where all her watches come into play? Her utility seems insane

Also I don't care for speed running at all never did. I care about how the character's gameplay is and if they are unique enough compared to the other survivors

[Gi-Go]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

There is no advantage to staying at her young age - but there is no advantage either.  You'd basically be playing Wilson with a different healing mechanic (gated heal spam but free constant heal) and more difficulty if you hit freeze / overheat / starvation.  With the prevalence of healing foods, I would consider "gated heal spam but free constant heal" a downside.  Perogies, trail mix, and just eating blue caps is basically free too.

Well actually *pulls glasses up* since night armor is the best armor in the game and is also very cheap, but can't be usetilized by other charcaters (since it's overkill and thus a slot waste on normal fights, and an actual safety hazard on bosses) Wanda can survive 40 spider hits in her boomer form alone, while Wilson in football helmet with full hp can only handle 38. Assuming armor dosen't break first.

And her clock in loli form deals similar damage to wigfrid with dark sword. 

This girl has no downsides. 

Her health drains, so treat it like she heals 10 hp and not 20 if she has 1 clock every 4 minutes. And completely ignore it if you have 2. 

[Toros]

2 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Toros I like your approach cause you make sense when balancing but you really don't make Wolfgang ever seem more fun with your ideas you never add more niches for his strength or more avenues to how wolf plays.  Small details like the harvest speed, and fast rowing are great together they make wolf seem and feel mighty.  But it needs to be fun when implemented and not just make sense on power.

What you quoted is me pushing back on “Wolf needs speed while mighty or he’s terrible” which is a common attitude expressed, but not explained.

I’ve made the argument that Wolfgang having boosted speed only during boss fights would allow him to rush fights that currently require magi to effectively kite.  

That to me is good reasoning for a very specific buff that clearly links to an outcome that could be fun and open up options.

General speed boosts or raving about how good the alarming clock is do not accomplish that.

The recent changes suggest that Klei is paying attention to feedback and the flow of Wolf’s gameplay, and I personally appreciate the 150% work speed because I don’t like holding space while watching tree chop animations or mining animations.  Reducing that time by 30% to me is a nice change, as are the recent dumbbell buffs for a similar reason.

Based on all the gifs of squashing enemies with dumbbells I am assuming that other people also find that mechanic fun even if the damage is underwhelming currently.

I personally lift to work out and get a similar sense of becoming weaker the longer I’m away from the gym, so that concept of needing to spend time and eat food to maintain strength very much resonates with me, which is part of why I greatly prefer Wolf’s new design.

I’m not against buffs inherently, but I need a good argument for buffing a character that is already very strong relative to most of the others.

[Yuuko]

5 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Well actually *pulls glasses up* since night armor is the best armor in the game and is also very cheap, but can't be usetilized by other charcaters (since it's overkill and thus a slot waste on normal fights, and an actual safety hazard on bosses) Wanda can survive 40 spider hits in her boomer form alone, while Wilson in football helmet with full hp can only handle 38. Assuming armor dosen't break first.

Anyone who is going to tank that much can wear nm / marble armor and gain that benefit.  Its not unique to Wanda.

Quote

And her clock in loli form deals similar damage to wigfrid with dark sword. 

That's valid.  Ask for a nerf?  No reason it should deal more than axe damage in loli form.

I'd still rather play Wigfrid if that was my plan though - you can spam heal, and life leach, and get higher dps.  idk, maybe you value backtrek that much, go for it.

[sudoku]

4 minutes ago, Toros said:

 

I personally lift to work out and get a similar sense of becoming weaker the longer I’m away from the gym, so that concept of needing to spend time and eat food to maintain strength very much resonates with me, which is part of why I greatly prefer Wolf’s new design.

 

We all brush our teeth everyday but that doesnt mean it would be an interesting game mechanic to brush your teeth after eating in game. Mightyness in its current form feels like a chore you must do

[Gi-Go]

Raid boss preparation is just as important if not more important than the fight itself. Always has been. 

You're not gonna "rush" bosses with speed that activates in combat only. The whole point of boss rush is to rush preparations not the boss itself. 

Wait, you hold space and not spam click? I spotted a fake Wolfgang main. 

Btw, "Wolfgang had speed buff for 8 years and just got removed for absolutely no reason where is undo button?" Is not a valid enough reason? 

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Anyone who is going to tank that much can wear nm / marble armor and gain that benefit.  Its not unique to Wanda.

You're saying she is Wilson in her full hp mode, I'm saying she has more survivability than him if you consider night armor to be her character exclusive item (and I do, because using it as others is invalid strategy). 

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

I just hope to gain might while labouring, I prefer rewards for active gameplay, rather than planning ahead. As wolf I stayed in might because he was strong and fast I hope the new wolf still makes people wish to maintain his might for it's utilities. I like that other people mentioned instantly hoisting the boat sail, raising anchor faster, and reeling the fish in faster while mighty as that seems sound to me while not being "overpowered".

The gym idea is great but also like working out, it's something we do in our downtime or when we wish to build our strength quickly. I hope the might levels are affected in more ways than just the gym and bell

[Gi-Go]

And all I want is to not loose perk that was around for longer than DST existed, and got removed just because... just because. 

[Toros]

4 minutes ago, sudoku said:

We all brush our teeth everyday but that doesnt mean it would be an interesting game mechanic to brush your teeth after eating in game. Mightyness in its current form feels like a chore you must do

Mightiness in the current form takes 5 seconds per 6.5 minutes to maintain.  At worst, it’s a lateral move compared to having to cook and eat a bunch more food in exchange for mighty.  Difference is now you get consistent 2x damage without having to top off your hunger in combat.

4 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Raid boss preparation is just as important if not more important than the fight itself. Always has been. 

You're not gonna "rush" bosses with speed that activates in combat only. The whole point of boss rush is to rush preparations not the boss itself. 

Wait, you hold space and not spam click? I spotted a fake Wolfgang main. 

Btw, "Wolfgang had speed buff for 8 years and just got removed for absolutely no reason where is undo button?" Is not a valid enough reason? 

No, it’s not a valid enough reason because Wolf has been given several buffs with the removal of speed boost and max health.

My advice to you would just be to play Wanda.