Opinions on Wolfgang's Refresh?

[Mike23Ua]

Why do people keep comparing Wanda to Wolfgang? Prior to his Rework Wolfgang just ate food and had all positives without a single negative, his power had no “Progress” you never felt like you EARNED Anything you just ate food & reap benefits- Wanda on the other hand has to build science machines, alchemy engines, Prestihatitors and then gather several fairly expensive resources to craft her kit items to obtain her power.

Klei has attempted to do the same thing with Wolfgang by making players want to slowly progress through the available Dumbells to get to the one that require prototyping at a Prestihatitator for the most gains.

The problem: Some people are too spoiled by the FREE simple minded way that they used to gain his might that they refuse to accept that they may need to work to EARN it now.

And to each of the players saying they’ve ruined Wolfgang and You’ll just play Wanda now GOOD because atleast when you gather the resources for her crafts and “progress” up to that point your doing exactly what Klei intended with this new Wolfgang concept.

Sure it may need tweaks, and yeah standing around doing nothing to pump muscle may be boring- but they will fine tune it.. and Wolfgang’s Might will STILL be locked behind the same “Progress” that Wanda has to climb through.

In fact I wouldn’t care if they made a higher tier Dumbell that gives him 3x Might but is absolute end game earned, I wouldn’t care if he got an Amulet of great speed that was a very late game item he can unlock- What I care about is prior to his rework he just ran around punching things not even needing to build a SCIENCE MACHINE first..

And this Rework fixes that.

[Cloakingsumo198]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Why do people keep comparing Wanda to Wolfgang? Prior to his Rework Wolfgang just ate food and had all positives without a single negative, his power had no “Progress” you never felt like you EARNED Anything you just ate food & reap benefits- Wanda on the other hand has to build science machines, alchemy engines, Prestihatitors and then gather several fairly expensive resources to craft her kit items to obtain her power.

Klei has attempted to do the same thing with Wolfgang by making players want to slowly progress through the available Dumbells to get to the one that require prototyping at a Prestihatitator for the most gains.

The problem: Some people are too spoiled by the FREE simple minded way that they used to gain his might that they refuse to accept that they may need to work to EARN it now.

And to each of the players saying they’ve ruined Wolfgang and You’ll just play Wanda now GOOD because atleast when you gather the resources for her crafts and “progress” up to that point your doing exactly what Klei intended with this new Wolfgang concept.

Sure it may need tweaks, and yeah standing around doing nothing to pump muscle may be boring- but they will fine tune it.. and Wolfgang’s Might will STILL be locked behind the same “Progress” that Wanda has to climb through.

In fact I wouldn’t care if they made a higher tier Dumbell that gives him 3x Might but is absolute end game earned, I wouldn’t care if he got an Amulet of great speed that was a very late game item he can unlock- What I care about is prior to his rework he just ran around punching things not even needing to build a SCIENCE MACHINE first..

And this Rework fixes that.

Woa calm down man it's only game.

Not every character needs to be complex and having to climb to the depths of the underworld to get the mcguffin in order to secure their rightful place as the jester. 

All the characters are specialized to give different gameplay styles Wolfgang doesn't need to be manhandled in order to fit your idea of a earning his place just look at wigfrid what's she doin to be so stronk? 

Pretty sure Wanda was meant to be a glass Cannon but she also has you know team teleportation and other utility uses that are way cooler than just hitting like a truck. But she pays for it by being old and running out of time. 

Wolfgang will have his own niche without needing to be extremely complicated as that doesn't always equal fun

[BlueSteelBlades]

I feel the direction they are going with Wolfgang atm is one that is seeming positive with some tweaks. With the character becoming more well-rounded, interesting in concept and less of a effortless food chugging damage god. Under this I will cover various topics I see being highly contentious in the community surrounding the topic and give my own thoughts on the matter + some additional ideas I have sitting around before the announcement.

 

Firstly, I see a lot of people annoyed about the supposed nerf to speed. This may be disheartening for some but realistically the ability to carry heavy objects/wear heavy things offsets this downside; Of which in turn makes him a more tank-like hard hitting fighter, what Wolfgangs personality more embodies in current state then a nimble war machine. However, I believe his speed boost could be put somewhere else, namely his wimpy form (another person’s idea). This would not any make sense with a smaller body being more mobile then a huge and bulky one but also as means of better map traversal and/or longer but easier fighting engagements.

 

Secondly, there’s the concern about downtime surrounding his might build up and/or novelty weak damaging dumbbells. This could easily be fixed by a simple numbers tweak to all character related equipment and most likely will before launch…making it the least pressing of the issues surrounding the rework.

 

Thirdly, there is the nerfing of the hp pool and the streamlining of his dps between the now outlined forms tied to “mightiness”. I feel the change to hp to an objective nerf but none the less fair considering 200 hp is nothing to scoff at and with the flat damage values being in play with forms --> him being stronger than before as the nerfs are balanced with new potentially stronger upsides not to dissimilar to the speed situation currently. On the topic of the flat damage values and mightiness I think it is a welcome change, with the fridge raiding in a “CO-OP” game being less present and the dps rates being a buff overall.

 

Lastly, lets discuss the downsides or the lack there of. Right now, Wolfgang only suffers a faster hunger drain depending on form state and a fear of the dark that translates to slightly greater sanity loss during night-time. In the current state of the beta branch, they have been slightly tweaked to coincide with mighty meter, with strength weakening during greater starvation and the fear being stronger when alone. I like the former as it encourages the survival goal of the dst but the latter is still uninteresting and relatively meaningless to the average player. My idea would be to add a third downside that relates to his fear of the darkness but builds upon. My thought would be to have his shadow monsters scale his mightiness and be greater in number during night hours with the addition of potentially new ones that can screw with during the night especially when alone. This would add a lot more flavour to his character, stop the outcry for “real downsides” and ultimately make the character more interesting; With this downside hopefully moulding his play to be more strategic and less I see I fight I win like he currently plays. I know this idea is a bit out there and likely take longer to implement but I thought I might as well voice an additional change when thinking about his current beta build.

 

Anyways thanks for reading my essay formatted piece about Wolfgangs current state, his beta build and what my thoughts were on the matter. Hopefully this post helps in giving new potential ideas on the topic.

Note: This was orginally my post on my own thread for which I decided to also post here to get greater amount of viewpoints/thoughts on the ideas explored 

[Copyafriend]

44 minutes ago, Dextops said:

basing a character on the player and not the character

Basing the character on realistic expectations of a players ability. You dont dodge perfectly every time, you dont react immediately. No one does. On a practical level wandas damage buff means you’re playing with the lowest health character in the game, whose health is also constantly draining. Either that or you’re not even close to wolfgangs damage.

saying its risky isn’t a shocker i know, but no one plays and never gets hit, even that one guy who had a series where he killed every boss without taking damage cant do that every time. Either you’ll get tired or lazy or just plain inattentive and you’ll take damage. 40 health isnt much, and my point was theres a lot of situations where thats just not enough to survive. 

[Cloakingsumo198]

1 hour ago, Dextops said:

basing a character on the player and not the character

But when balancing things I'm pretty devs look at what the best players can do and allow them some leway whilst also balancing things for their more casual players who can just get more or better gear to ease up the loop.

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

But when balancing things I'm pretty devs look at what the best players can do and allow them some leway whilst also balancing things for their more casual players who can just get more or better gear to ease up the loop.

If that’s the case: Explain why Wolfgang was given worse penalties in Wimpy form. The ONLY people that’s going to impact are the ones who aren’t skilled with the character and will be put off from trying to enjoy him- for the “Best Players” (there’s no such thing by the way…) they won’t ever be put into a position where those downsides will ever matter.

Klei actually made this Rework even more punishing for them.. I don’t understand the logic behind it but okay.

[Cloakingsumo198]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

If that’s the case: Explain why Wolfgang was given worse penalties in Wimpy form. The ONLY people that’s going to impact are the ones who aren’t skilled with the character and will be put off from trying to enjoy him- for the “Best Players” (there’s no such thing by the way…) they won’t ever be put into a position where those downsides will ever matter.

Klei actually made this Rework even more punishing for them.. I don’t understand the logic behind it but okay.

When you fail, you learn I'm sure many players who played Wanda for the first time had a rude awakening ha, but you always have other players to pick you up and help teach you if you're lucky plus Wolfgang does have a downside he can go wimpy lol most players will learn to keep that meter up if they wish to not suffer consequences. If a wigfrid didn't adapt to having to hunt you wouldn't call that a fault in her character just the player

Certain characters will have a learning curve or not be beginner friendly and that is okay people will learn what they are capable of

In competive games there is easy tech and hard tech to learn everyone starts somewhere.

Although this is PvE so most people can get by just learning how to kite a bit and when to tank and spank lol

[BlueSteelBlades]

Lets be honest here...Wolfgang was WAY too good before the rework and still is kinda good after it. The idea of a high dps high hp character having a speed buff also for just eating well is not only boring in design but kinda busted in direct comparision to other existing characters. This whole talk about Wanda verse Wolfgang is odd also. Wolfgang is a tanky heavy hitter whilst Wanda is a glass cannon who happens to hit hard at low hp. Expecting Wolfgang to not only be as strong as Wanda but higher in hp would destroy the roles they fill in the roster but devalue every other character in power level by comparision more so than he already does. We should be trying to discuss ways to make him feel better and have a unique identity in game and NOT on how to revert him and/or make him as strong as his old boring self. Sorry for the venting but hearing the same tired points is getting overwhelming. No disaspect to the original poster as it is common topic just thought this being a recent Wanda V Wolfgang post would be most relevent to tag.

[Cloakingsumo198]

6 minutes ago, BlueSteelBlades said:

Lets be honest here...Wolfgang was WAY too good before the rework and still is kinda good after it. The idea of a high dps high hp character having a speed buff also for just eating well is not only boring in design but kinda busted in direct comparision to other existing characters. This whole talk about Wanda verse Wolfgang is odd also. Wolfgang is a tanky heavy hitter whilst Wanda is a glass cannon who happens to hit hard at low hp. Expecting Wolfgang to not only be as strong as Wanda but higher in hp would destroy the roles they fill in the roster but devalue every other character in power level by comparision more so than he already does. We should be trying to discuss ways to make him feel better and have a unique identity in game and NOT on how to revert him and/or make him as strong as his old boring self. Sorry for the venting but hearing the same tired points is getting overwhelming. No disaspect to the original poster as it is common topic just thought this being a recent Wanda V Wolfgang post would be most relevent to tag.

The people compare the two cause they are most likely candidates for speed running or boss rushing lol it is worthy discussion that you don't have to take part in

But I also believe they serve different purposes whilst also sharing high damage.  Wolfgang was always about improving himself and having the strength to be a one man army while Wanda has her clocks of reversing death, teleporting, team teleporting, whilst also being a glass cannon she is all those things.

Wolfgang was about being on the move and always working so he could offset his massive hunger drain but most people don't realize that and only think strong man hits hard, runs fast, and eats my food. So him eating less but also being way more tedious is justifiable to those who don't even play him or care about his gameplay loop. Why don't people listen to the Wolfgang mains? Instead of comparing him to characters that aren't supposed to be like him

[Gi-Go]

2 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

Honestly pretty extreme in how exaggerated wanda’s whips usefulness is.

range- super nice, if you’re already good at dodging its not a game changer in a boss fight, its just more comfortable. Its damage also isnt much better than a darksword because it swings slower. It IS nice though.

as far as the dodging watch goes, again SUPER nice, when i was playing wanda i was having a blast just not getting hit at all for easier bosses. But i dont get hit normally either (unless i make a mistake ofc). thats not a brag, im just saying that anything achievable with the backstep watch can be done by just taking a couple steps back. Or moving too quick for the enemy to hit you (shadow pieces fight is a joke, grab a magi and run on a road with a caneand it cant hit you either way, wanda being able to rush it is again nice but she doesnt auto win just because she has an advantage) dragonfly? She attacks once every five seconds, its one of the harder kites because you cant leave too quick or she’ll follow, but honestly its just as difficult as using the backstep to do it. 
 

dont get me wrong you have some DEFINITE points when it comes to hounds spiders, insanity monsters and kiting mobs. But she doesn’t automatically win at every fight. Healint is much harder as her for instance, if you dont have a ton of backstep watches then you’re in some serious danger. Each backstep watch is only worth 20 health (8 years is worth 20 health). I mean the argument is “dont get hit” but we all make mistakes, and i dont need 8 ancient crafts to fully heal. Nor do mine have a delay until i can use them again. Which is a pretty serious weakness of hers. Burst damage taken can easily overwhelm her time sensitive healing.

in addition her damage boost is not nearly as practical as wolfgangs. You’re goint to stat 40 health from death constantly to kill a boss? What about clearing the ruins like that? Im sure you’ve been suprised and lost half your health before, I certainly have. Heck the dragonfly fight is a perfect example, if you got caught in that you’d be dead. Or caught in beargers slash stomp combo (200 health, 40 after helm, 16 years) its dangerous, i mean its doable but dont act like shes just got that damage booat without downsides. So lets review that list and i’ll say who really wins.

every seasonal boss: if they have less than 10000 health, consider them on this list. They approximately tie at this point, nothing is super super dangerous to reliably burst dps wanda, and wolfgangs slight damage improvement doesnt matter much, either one could finish faster and wanda can reliably get an extra hit off to cancel wolfgangs damage advantage. 
any non boss: wanda wins 

the convenience of the whip shines, as its always ready and the range makes the biggest difference in groups. Its nothing crazy, but she will get hit less, and neither one is likely buffed up for the fight, itd be excessive if they were. The backstep watch is also more likely to get you hit than anything in this situation, but you can always just not use it. 

Dragonfly: wolfgang wins. For such a long bossfight the damage ends up making a difference pretty severely. The enrage mechanic is also very likely to be fatal to a granny wanda. If shes not a granny she loses even harder. Due to the short range df has you cant get any extra hits in with the whip, and you can kite instead of usint the backstep watch.

celestial champion. You admitted that wandas kit doesnt help much with him but still attrivuted the win to her even though the second phase easily being able to kill a granmy through even a helm (unless lucky with helm) and the third phase putting her to sleep to be finished off. Wolfgang wins this one too. 
klaus: he cant be stunlocked, in fact any stunlocking that came from the whips was removed. Wolfgang wins by virtue of temperature tics preventing wanda from healing easily as a single tic of damage prevents healing entirely, and wolfgang does more damage.

honestly i can find more where wolfgang shines if you want.

crab king: neither one is better, chef wins.

bee queen: neither one is better: ghost wins.

shadow pieces? Wolfgang actually does again win here. You only need to stack speed boosts or use a beefalo to dodge the rook, and the bishop actually can catch wanda pretty reliably if she tries to use the backstep watch. But wanda could speedrun it better, teleportation and not needing a magi is nice, but odds are you probably went to the ruins anyway for the fragments and crowns. 
Fuelweaver though? Yeah wanda wins. Only barely though, if you’re fighting the fuelweaver you either already have the telelocator staff, or you didnt get a walking cane during 

But despite all this i do think wanda is a better character. Utility anf teleportation and all that jazz, id play wicker befoee wolfyboy too. But my favorite character is wormwood so we saw that coming. 
 

wandas alarming clock is nice, but having a little more room to breathe while kiting isnt a game changer, and the damage isnt better than a dark sword. The backstep watch is also nice, but its about as hard to use as it is to just kite. Her damage is slightly worse than wolfgangs, and if she wants to be a dps character she needs to have almost half of the health of wes while also actively having her health being lowered. Shes not the easy pick up and kill character wolfgang is.

 

Don't wanna be rude, you seem to be a cool guy, but you are just wrong and need to train your martial arts and meditate under waterfall, and only then come back to compare these two charcaters.

If kiting dragonfly and using backstep watch is equally easy then people would be able to do both with zero hits reliably. I can't, I'm not a God gamer, I slip when I kite her from time to time. It took me 3 attempts to learn timing of the backwatch however. And now I'm confident enough to deconstruct my only healing source while well knowing a single mistake will kill me. I don't suppose you charge at dragonfly without bothering to make armor because you don't need it, since you gonna kite her?

I'm almost always in boomer mode so for me a single watch is a full heal. The craft is cheap even if you called it ancient. I just make thulecite walls and then break them with a rook. Or you can be uncreative and use hammer on already existing ones. Or you can do celestial portal. Or find an archive. My point is this is the cheapest heal in the game considering one of these bad boys heals you fully every 4 minutes indefinitely and you get it at the start.

Meaby years ago when I though miner hat was a good item I got caught off guard wearing this trash and lost half of my hp or worse. Not anymore. You said boomer Wanda has 40 hp? I haven't lurked the wiki and assumed it was around 30. So, with a football helmet boomer Wanda can take 4 hits from clockworks and live.

Did you know that Bearger respects personal space and never gets closer to player than the tip of his attack range? You can dodge him as long as your speed is above 0,0. I can't even imagine how you can get hit by his stomp. Looks like another spooky tale about how Wanda is gonna slip on a banana peel and break her neck. Don't scare me like that.

A tip for dragonfly: she always summons 5 then 6 then 7 larvae. Count them and use flute right after she spawns the last one. She will not even enrage then. And even if dragonfly enrages, she dosen't understand how aoe attacks are supposed to be used. Just dodge then flute if you aren't confident in predict fluting.

I addmited Wanda's kit dosen't help on celestial champ? I said she stunlocks him probably. https://youtu.be/B7XSO_JYsc4
I just don't know if it's patched, and I'm not planning on finding out because there is no way I'm gonna do all the RoT nonsense just to summon a boss and then stunlock him. Either way range rules so yeah Wanda best girl for this guy. For doing hits on phase 1 belly flop. Or general range advantages.

Shadow Bishop cannot catch Wanda in his second form and that's where he dies. I can dodge him AND rook without speedboosts. The key is not letting them chain attack.
Meanwhile, Wolfgang won't be able to dodge bishop even with his legendary speed boost. Also excuse me whaaaaaat using beefalo in a battle as Wolfgang?

Bigger range means you only need to move a tiny bit when you kite and backstep watch is even faster than kiting thus you deal more damage. A LOT more than the damage you are loosing with a slightly slower attack speed.
After all, Wanda can deal enough damage with backstep watch to farm scales from dragonfly, but Wolfgang cannot do that if he kites her.

It's a shame my PC is broken right now, I'd love to make a video where I tank some bosses as Wanda (in boomer form only) instead of using backstep and steps back. Just to show how "fragile" she is. But the concept is 95% from night armor, invincibility from crowns and a plan B if my clock is on a cooldown (snail shell). And i heal after every 5 hits deerclops or dragonfly deal regaining health back to "full". I can handle infinitly more hits if I'll use my shell, but like an anime character I save my trump card for the very last moment for no reason.
Please don't tell me about Wolfgang's ability to tank with football hats and some potatoes, I'm not trying to convince you that Wanda is gonna steal his last thin string of an advantage that is a cheaper tank. Just saying dying as her is never an accident and is always a series of poor judgment.

You're not gonna die from getting surprise attacked or mistiming a backstep watch. You're gonna die from a bad desition streak like: "oh, I got hit a few times and only have one heal on me because I wanted to save some space for feathers and meat, and use speed amulet instead of backpack, and the only heal on me is gonna be inactive for 2 more minutes, but I'll continue to fight this dumb goose, surely he won't be able to hit me again". Sigh.

[Erineyes7]

I'll be honest. I don't like it

Beforehand Wolfgang was strong just for eating food, he was pretty flat, and unbalanced all things considered, which led to a lot of people not liking him.

But new Wolfgang is somehow more boring and flat without the speed. But now I also have to stand still for awhile to access any of Wolfgang's character.

I don't get how Klei can add such a dynamic and interesting character like Wanda, but then Wolfgang asks you to stand still for awhile for double damage, it isn't fair imo. He's bland, boring, and now tedious to upkeep. What happened? Why is his fear, the only other defining characteristic besides big and stupid, completely wasted?

Also hey, to those that are so against the speed boost fill me in as to why? Just curious tbh.

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

7 minutes ago, Erineyes7 said:

I'll be honest. I don't like it

Beforehand Wolfgang was strong just for eating food, he was pretty flat, and unbalanced all things considered, which led to a lot of people not liking him.

But new Wolfgang is somehow more boring and flat without the speed. But now I also have to stand still for awhile to access any of Wolfgang's character.

I don't get how Klei can add such a dynamic and interesting character like Wanda, but then Wolfgang asks you to stand still for awhile for double damage, it isn't fair imo. He's bland, boring, and now tedious to upkeep. What happened? Why is his fear, the only other defining characteristic besides big and stupid, completely wasted?

Also hey, to those that are so against the speed boost fill me in as to why? Just curious tbh.

 

All I've ever gotten is it's broken, it doesn't fit his theme, strongmen aren't meant to be fast. But other characters can do crazy things that others can't, isn't his theme also combat oriented to boot? Plus big people usually with bigger and stronger leg muscles can run I mean look at American footballers they are big but nimble for their size.

[Gi-Go]

2 minutes ago, Erineyes7 said:

I don't get how Klei can add such a dynamic and interesting character like Wanda, but then Wolfgang asks you to stand still for awhile for double damage, it isn't fair imo. He's bland, boring, and now tedious to upkeep. What happened? Why is his fear, the only other defining characteristic besides big and stupid, completely wasted?

Come on, it's a good rework (only if they gonna return his speed, obviously) 

Dumbbells just need a number tweak. They may be boring but they are just a plan B for when you can't hit the gym. 

The gym is very good as people said before. You make one at base put some boss statues on it, and then work out once a day for like 20 or so seconds. And the rest of the day you are a maxed out Wolfgang for absolutely free. 

Yea he dosen't have a fear related downside, but Woodie dosen't have a celebrating Thanksgiving early upside. What are those supposed to be even gameplay wise? 

The sanity related ideas all go into trashcan.

If the downside rewards you for having low sanity then just stay insane forever which is already better strategically. Wont be fun because I don't want reverse asmr on loop as a downside. 

If it punishes you for low sanity then omg that's yucky. Last thing I want is to go out of my way and restore sanity. 

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 hours ago, Dextops said:

basing a character on the player and not the character

then, if we have to considere that the player wont fail never, just we should go godmode. Anyways, we all are super pr0 over here and downsides doesnt matter

[Erineyes7]

Just now, Gi-Go said:

Come on, it's a good rework (only if they gonna return his speed, obviously) 

Dumbbells just need a number tweak. They may be boring but they are just a plan B for when you can't hit the gym. 

The gym is very good as people said before. You make one at base put some boss statues on it, and then work out once a day for like 20 or so seconds. And the rest of the day you are a maxed out Wolfgang for absolutely free. 

Yea he dosen't have a fear related downside, but Woodie dosen't have a celebrating Thanksgiving early upside. What are those supposed to be even gameplay wise? 

The sanity related ideas all go into trashcan.

If the downside rewards you for having low sanity then just stay insane forever which is already better strategically. Wont be fun because I don't want reverse asmr on loop as a downside. 

If it punishes you for low sanity then omg that's yucky. Last thing I want is to go out of my way and restore sanity. 

 

Dumbbell or not, Wolfgang is flat either way. Old Wolfgang was eat food for more damage, while new Wolfgang is eat and workout for double damage. It's just not interesting in any way. 

So many of the characters in DST have felt interesting, and asked for different ways to tackle certain aspects of gameplay for different rewards. But Wolfgang's rework doesn't do this, it asks you to stand still for awhile for more damage and almost nothing else, they didn't fix the broken core of his character, they just removed his only other interesting mechanic of being faster.

Klei didn't fix anything, they just made him less fun for me.

[Gi-Go]

23 minutes ago, Erineyes7 said:

Dumbbell or not, Wolfgang is flat either way. Old Wolfgang was eat food for more damage, while new Wolfgang is eat and workout for double damage. It's just not interesting in any way. 

So many of the characters in DST have felt interesting, and asked for different ways to tackle certain aspects of gameplay for different rewards. But Wolfgang's rework doesn't do this, it asks you to stand still for awhile for more damage and almost nothing else, they didn't fix the broken core of his character, they just removed his only other interesting mechanic of being faster.

Klei didn't fix anything, they just made him less fun for me.

Some times you gotta appreciate well designed simplicity. Not everything is better because you add more details to it. Wolfgang is one of those cases. I love both Wanda's unlimited creativity, and Wolfgang's straight forward attitude to get the job done. If that's not you cup of tea I'm totally fine with it, and so is Wolfgang and so should you be. Just pick Wanda if this is your idea of fun or whoever else you prefer.

And again, don't use dumbbells. It's a last resort thing to stay in mighty form if you find yourself lacking a bit of mightiness to go super saiyan and don't have the gym nearby. Gym is what represents Wolfgang's rework - not the dumbbells. 

This rework proved to me that I underestimated Klei and they still understand what the charcater is about and how to change him without loosing the premise. Again, I'm speaking with his speed still existing in mind because in my ideal world klei never removed it, and are just messing around in beta to see some tears and blood on forums. Huge kudos to Klei for this amazing rework, and for returing the speed boost after the beta haha... come on now, klei. 

[Cloakingsumo198]

12 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Some times you gotta appreciate well designed simplicity. Not everything is better because you add more details to it. Wolfgang is one of those cases. I love both Wanda's unlimited creativity, and Wolfgang's straight forward attitude to get the job done. If that's not you cup of tea I'm totally fine with it, and so is Wolfgang and so should you be. Just pick Wanda if this is your idea of fun or whoever else you prefer.

And again, don't use dumbbells. It's a last resort thing to stay in mighty form if you find yourself lacking a bit of mightiness to go super saiyan and don't have the gym nearby. Gym is what represents Wolfgang's rework - not the dumbbells. 

This rework proved to me that I underestimated Klei and they still understand what the charcater is about and how to change him without loosing the premise. Again, I'm speaking with his speed still existing in mind because in my ideal world klei never removed it, and are just messing around in beta to see some tears and blood on forums. Huge kudos to Klei for this amazing rework, and for returing the speed boost after the beta haha... come on now, klei. 

It will be fine if they don't return his speed brother he just needs to have a purpose to want to be mighty like how we would in the old days we used to maintain our might just to feel fast, now hopefully we will retain our might to feel STRONG like punching down rocks and trees or using tools faster and breaking them faster cause we're SO MACHO or at least being able to get mighty doing normal physical labour like fighting/chopping/mining cause not all muscles are built in the gym some require HARD WORK so we don't have to drop what ever we are doing constantly just to get SWOLE.  I wish for a faster pace Wolfgang that feels natural his body has always been his temple not his mind or creative hijinks just RAW UNFILTERED MANLINESS.

Or make his sanity affect his gains strength and courage naturally build when we face our fears

[Gi-Go]

26 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

then, if we have to considere that the player wont fail never, just we should go godmode. Anyways, we all are super pr0 over here and downsides doesnt matter

I'll repeat myself just for you <3 

You're not gonna die from getting surprise attacked or mistiming a backstep watch. You're gonna die from a bad desition streak like: "oh, I got hit a few times and only have one heal on me because I wanted to save some space for feathers and meat, and use speed amulet instead of backpack, and the only heal on me is gonna be inactive for 2 more minutes, but I'll continue to fight this dumb goose, surely he won't be able to hit me again". Sigh.

Failing is part of the game, but making mistakes is not an end of the world. Even for a "glass canon". Downsides matter, but not in an anchor to a ballon way. They matter because they have a purpose and that purpose is to make you improve at the game by learning how to work around them. Once you do, you defeated them and they no longer matter (to you). So my tip to players is to always try to beat the downside instead of treating it like an immovable obstacle. 

I guess I should have said that earlier to not sound so cocky. Point is: to me, Wanda dosen't have a downside because i already learned to work around it. And the less experienced players should aim for that too.

11 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

It will be fine if they don't return his speed brother he just needs to have a purpose to want to be mighty like how we would in the old days we used to maintain our might just to feel fast, now hopefully we will retain our might to feel STRONG like punching down rocks and trees or using tools faster and breaking them faster cause we're SO MACHO or at least being able to get mighty doing normal physical labour like fighting/chopping/mining cause not all muscles are built in the gym some require HARD WORK so we don't have to drop what ever we are doing constantly just to get SWOLE.  I wish for a faster pace Wolfgang that feels natural his body has always been his temple not his mind or creative hijinks just RAW UNFILTERED MANLINESS.

Or make his sanity affect his gains strength and courage naturally build when we face our fears

The speed seems like the only logical step to me. Wolfgang enjoyers already know how ot use it, it feels familiar. While the reverse Wes seems reasonable, it's gonna make Wolfgang the fifth worker. And getting mightiness from regular tasks sounds better than staying afk but the gym man the gym. He will be fast paced with speed boost, a lot faster actually than before, because the gym is so good as long as you go back to base once per day. 

Another war is gonna occur if Wolfgang will get the work speed. Except this time people will actually have reasons to complain.

Wolfgang with speed boost is not gonna offend anyone. Wormwood? These guys sit at base and grow vegetables instead of using legs. Wx78? Noone plays him anymore and he haven't even got a rework yet so why complain. Wes? Noone cares what Wes wants and im saying that while being a Wes main. Walter? Ew. 

Now, Wolfgang who works hard, deals double damage, and is faster at sea? Woodie nerviously smokes pinecones in the corner. 

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

36 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I'll repeat myself just for you <3 

You're not gonna die from getting surprise attacked or mistiming a backstep watch. You're gonna die from a bad desition streak like: "oh, I got hit a few times and only have one heal on me because I wanted to save some space for feathers and meat, and use speed amulet instead of backpack, and the only heal on me is gonna be inactive for 2 more minutes, but I'll continue to fight this dumb goose, surely he won't be able to hit me again". Sigh.

Failing is part of the game, but making mistakes is not an end of the world. Even for a "glass canon". Downsides matter, but not in an anchor to a ballon way. They matter because they have a purpose and that purpose is to make you improve at the game by learning how to work around them. Once you do, you defeated them and they no longer matter (to you). So my tip to players is to always try to beat the downside instead of treating it like an immovable obstacle. 

I guess I should have said that earlier to not sound so cocky. Point is: to me, Wanda dosen't have a downside because i already learned to work around it. And the less experienced players should aim for that too.

The speed seems like the only logical step to me. Wolfgang enjoyers already know how ot use it, it feels familiar. While the reverse Wes seems reasonable, it's gonna make Wolfgang the fifth worker. And getting mightiness from regular tasks sounds better than staying afk but the gym man the gym. He will be fast paced with speed boost, a lot faster actually than before, because the gym is so good as long as you go back to base once per day. 

Another war is gonna occur if Wolfgang will get the work speed. Except this time people will actually have reasons to complain.

Wolfgang with speed boost is not gonna offend anyone. Wormwood? These guys sit at base and grow vegetables instead of using legs. Wx78? Noone plays him anymore and he haven't even got a rework yet so why complain. Wes? Noone cares what Wes wants and im saying that while being a Wes main. Walter? Ew. 

Now, Wolfgang who works hard, deals double damage, and is faster at sea? Woodie nerviously smokes pinecones in the corner. 

 

I feel you completely but I have to give in somewhere otherwise we may just be stuck as is I don't think Wolfgang can overshadow our gatherers they are specialized for that purpose, but being slighter faster in gathering while mighty gives it a passive niche that won't make everyone else cry (I think) wolf would feel a little more like before in his get it done gameplay style making him more generalist and it fits with being strong for those (moaning) I mean critiquing that it his speed doesn't match his strongman persona.

 

 

I still want speed please klei please I'll miss how he can just GIT ER DUN

[Gi-Go]

15 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I feel you completely but I have to give in somewhere otherwise we may just be stuck as is I don't think Wolfgang can overshadow our gatherers they are specialized for that purpose, but being slighter faster in gathering while mighty gives it a passive niche that won't make everyone else cry (I think) wolf would feel a little more like before in his get it done gameplay style making him more generalist and it fits with being strong for those (moaning) I mean critiquing that it his speed doesn't match his strongman persona.

 

 

I still want speed please klei please I'll miss how he can just GIT ER DUN

You know, I wouldn't mind having both actually. Movement speed and gathering speed that is. On top of double damage of course. 

 

I mean, we have Wanda. Without a doubt the most powerful character this world has ever seen. And yet, the universe hasn't ended from her existence. What can go wrong if we get one more titan?

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

You know, I wouldn't mind having both actually. Movement speed and gathering speed that is. On top of double damage of course. 

 

So what you wants a pony that knows all the tricks? I mean: I can see the appeal behind strongman punching boulders or trees because when pigs and Merms do it they do it with STRENGTH which is what Wolfgang is all about right? So to not have that just makes me question is Wolfgang weaker then Pigs/Merms?

To the people concerned he would be a better gathering character then Woodie, Wurt, Maxwell or Anyone who can Recruit Pigmen- No that’s inaccurate: 4 Merms Will very quickly obliterate an entire forest/rock biome, Wolfgang would do it VERY SLOWLY and Only while in Mighty form.

Now that SPEED is removed from him being able to Strongman punch trees/boulders with his bare fists while in Mighty mode just seems like a fair trade off.

Keep in mind that 4 Merms clear out an entire Biome while Wurt Idles, Wolfgang would have to do it while also having his Hunger go down draining Mighty points.

[Cloakingsumo198]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

So what you wants a pony that knows all the tricks? I mean: I can see the appeal behind strongman punching boulders or trees because when pigs and Merms do it they do it with STRENGTH which is what Wolfgang is all about right? So to not have that just makes me question is Wolfgang weaker then Pigs/Merms?

To the people concerned he would be a better gathering character then Woodie, Wurt, Maxwell or Anyone who can Recruit Pigmen- No that’s inaccurate: 4 Merms Will very quickly obliterate an entire forest/rock biome, Wolfgang would do it VERY SLOWLY and Only while in Mighty form.

Now that SPEED is removed from him being able to Strongman punch trees/boulders with his bare fists while in Mighty mode just seems like a fair trade off.

Keep in mind that 4 Merms clear out an entire Biome while Wurt Idles, Wolfgang would have to do it while also having his Hunger go down draining Mighty points.

Strongman punching I like for the meme not as a whole trait to look forward to lol I would like Wolfgang to have a bunch of traits to match that fact he's just BUILT DIFFERENT 

[Mike23Ua]

11 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Strongman punching I like for the meme not as a whole trait to look forward to lol I would like Wolfgang to have a bunch of traits to match that fact he's just BUILT DIFFERENT 

You heavily underestimate the amount of sticks, flint, gold, you will be able to save in not having to craft any Axes/Pickaxes if you could just punch them down with your bare fists..

I play ALOT of Wurt and one single Merm follower can get you more Wood and Rock resources then you can possibly have a use for.. I mean they do it SLOWLY yes.. but I also don’t have to use a ton of axes/pickaxes while doing it- Which saves my twigs for more important things like: Torches, Campfire Fuel, or Passively taming a Beefalo that’s following me around bound to the Beefalo Bell so I can use him as a Speed boost to get around the map and gather resources.

I guess it’s a throwaway perk if you have a Woodie, or Maxwell on your team for much faster gathering: BUT it would be appreciated by the players like me playing mostly Solo.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

I guess I should have said that earlier to not sound so cocky. Point is: to me, Wanda dosen't have a downside because i already learned to work around it. And the less experienced players should aim for that too.

the problem is that it doesn't matter in a discussion about "balance". I have 4k hours playing this game, wanda is a joke at this point (except for try situations or when i forget to use the clock at 79years) but i wont comment in the topics how OP is Wanda when you surpass her downside and how it means that everybody should be op, because that is the case with every powerful character. I have seen player doing solo DF no pan flaute neither walls as Wormwood and that doesn't means that his healing downside or the fire inmmunity doesnt affect in the fight. 

Same can be said if someone with low experience or skill comes and start saying how hard is to play Wendy or wigfrid, isnt useful and that person would be only filling the forum with useless info which takes time from the dev in charge of reading feedback

And it has less sense if is to compare characters making the hardest one look easy meanwhile we raise how impactful are the downsides of the character we dont want to be nerfed. As i said, there is nothing bad of asking for powerful things, you will see me spamming op ideas when wicker refresh will be announce

I get your point but is bad feedback.

The only worthy comparations are when we wanna add a similar perk than other character already has without stealing their rol

[Dextops]

5 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

then, if we have to considere that the player wont fail never, just we should go godmode. Anyways, we all are super pr0 over here and downsides doesnt matter

i mean saying wanda has a big downside because you can't kite is not a good way of rating her i think a better way is she just has high risk high reward