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Opinions on Wolfgang's Refresh?


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No feedback is “bad feedback” unless it’s to ask for WX78 to become a transformers robot who can be Optimus Prime, Bumblebee & Starscream all rolled up into one package. (Over exaggerated example but you get my point)

People (both the expert lite “Git Good Noob” players, and the ones trying a character for the first time ever) have an opinion: and peoples opinions should be heard, Because if it were up to the expert get good noob players- Abigail wouldn’t have a ghostly glow that specifically glows to assist CASUALS who struggle finding any better light source- for players Adept at playing her: they can use this to intentionally save tool/fire pit resources and durability but for a Newbie…. It’s a good and helpful assist.

With Wolfgang’s rework I fell like Klei just listened to the “Nerf Him to Oblivion Crowd” I mean seriously… WHY did they make being Wimpy even more difficult? The only people that’s going to effect are those same casuals who rely on Abigail’s glow for light.

Because the git good lite crowd: Will never ever EVER be in a position where Wolfgang is in Wimpy form.

Im 100% serious when I say just remove Wimpy form from the game altogether, let Normal & Mighty be his only two forms: This makes him less punishing for people who are wanting to play him, AND makes the lifting of Weights back to Mighty cut by a whole transformation phase.

Is it OP? Depends on what your definition of OP is… if your good at the game already then no it won’t ever impact you, but if your one of those Casuals: It’s going to be an unfun experience for you.

If Klei only ever took feedback from the pro crowd, then they would only ever design content from the pro crowd perspective- and you need to have multiple perspectives to get a good grip on how people of varying skill levels & preferences prefer playing the game.

Wolfgang no longer having a Wimpy form also makes sense from a Lore standpoint: He has been in the constant since DS and like with Woodie learning he can control his curse- Wolfgang should have done enough “Physical stuff” to be Past the Wimpy stage.

In the end: it’s entirely up to Klei on what they decide to settle on- But to say anyones view point is invalidated is just… wrong.

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4 minutes ago, Dextops said:

i mean saying wanda has a big downside because you can't kite is not a good way of rating her i think a better way is she just has high risk high reward

then? so we can asume that the player will receive damage? we have to asume when balancing characters that every dst player has no life and only plays dst non stop practising every kiting pattern and being focused 100% of the time with perfect fps and latency?

 

lets make every character have 1hp, anyways we shouldn't asume that people can't kite so why we would have an hp bar?

but ey, so bad thar Klei removed 100hp and speed from wolf, unolayable

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Im 100% serious when I say just remove Wimpy

worst idea ever, congrats

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2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the problem is that it doesn't matter in a discussion about "balance". I have 4k hours playing this game, wanda is a joke at this point (except for try situations or when i forget to use the clock at 79years) but i wont comment in the topics how OP is Wanda when you surpass her downside and how it means that everybody should be op, because that is the case with every powerful character. I have seen player doing solo DF no pan flaute neither walls as Wormwood and that doesn't means that his healing downside or the fire inmmunity doesnt affect in the fight. 

How can it not matter in discussion about balance? We have a better version of a double damage fighter packed into a charcater with a whole bunch of already insane perks, and her only counterpoint is that she is fragile, and that is nullified by understanding just 2 things about this game: you can kite, and armor must be weared 24/7 untill you become good enough to never get hit. You don't need thousands of hours to figure these 2 things out. It's enough to just read someone mention it once. Football helmet is good enough to be immortal for other characters, Wanda needs better gear to feel cozy and safe in boomer mode. This is theory, not practice, so you don't need many hours for this. 

Honestly, I love Wanda but I wouldn't mind her to get a heavy nerf. A hot take incoming!!! Wanda should not benefit from armor at all except for shell, bone and bubble shield. If klei would do that then sure, I'll stop saying people to git gud because at that point no knowledge is gonna help you to be safe as her, only your raw fight experience, and that wouldn't be fair to people who are still new. 

Wolfgang is not gonna be broken even with double damage, reverse Wes workingn power and a speed boost. He is just gonna be awesome and easy and better than most. Wendy is awesome and easy and better than most already and you don't see anyone complaining... much. 

Your exsample with wormwood actually seems like a challenge that requires skill and practice and is not something an avarage Joe can pull off. In comparison, Wanda's strategy took me 3 attempts to fully master because it's very easy to not get hit on that boss with i-frames. And if you do get hit, I remind you that you are allowed to make that mistake 8 times (and more - if you heal), s long as you took shadow or marble armor with you. Not a high skill charcater, if she is hard to someone then anyone but wigfrid and Wendy are also too hard for them. Is Wolfgang easier? Just a tiny bit. 

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2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

then? so we can asume that the player will receive damage? we have to asume when balancing characters that every dst player has no life and only plays dst non stop practising every kiting pattern and being focused 100% of the time with perfect fps and latency?

 

lets make every character have 1hp, anyways we shouldn't asume that people can't kite so why we would have an hp bar?

but ey, so bad thar Klei removed 100hp and speed from wolf, unolayable

worst idea ever, congrats

Woa calm down at least be alittle more constructive and less sarcastic you'll get more done whilst seeming more charming

Alot of characters double dip into certain aspects we got two book readers but like 4 gather types, 2 swarmers, and 3 combat focused classes but everyone has their unique personality added to their play style and that's what makes characters fun and unique

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2 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Woa calm down at least be alittle more constructive and less sarcastic you'll get more done whilst seeming more charming

yep, i should fix how easy i go sarcams rude mode, thanks to remember me

9 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

How can it not matter in discussion about balance?

isnt like it doesnt matter, but not that it should be ignored like you seem to suggest in your comments

you bring all the time wanda and how op is she but she has downsides, hard ones even if for veterans isnt that much, which means that wolfgang actually has 0 downsides by that logic which i dont care since i think that is healthy for the game to have different characters with different skill caps. That wendy or wigfrid are brain dead character doesnt make wolfgang, wurt or wormwood deserve a buff , if they deserve a buff it should be because will improve the experience with the character

im with you, i love wanda downside but her middle age form, her old form having no almost downside while using the best armor in the game and her weapon are to kind with the player but still being a good glass cannon character (i still prefer 1st wendy refresh desing tho) with one of the harder downsides. I dont think klei should entirely balance arround 4k h players neither only for 1h players

i dont want this argumentation going futher, i just shared my opinion on how we should treat downsides for a, imo, more constructive feedback, nothing else

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10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Why do people keep comparing Wanda to Wolfgang? Prior to his Rework Wolfgang just ate food and had all positives without a single negative, his power had no “Progress” you never felt like you EARNED Anything you just ate food & reap benefits- Wanda on the other hand has to build science machines, alchemy engines, Prestihatitors and then gather several fairly expensive resources to craft her kit items to obtain her power.

Klei has attempted to do the same thing with Wolfgang by making players want to slowly progress through the available Dumbells to get to the one that require prototyping at a Prestihatitator for the most gains.

The problem: Some people are too spoiled by the FREE simple minded way that they used to gain his might that they refuse to accept that they may need to work to EARN it now.

And to each of the players saying they’ve ruined Wolfgang and You’ll just play Wanda now GOOD because atleast when you gather the resources for her crafts and “progress” up to that point your doing exactly what Klei intended with this new Wolfgang concept.

Sure it may need tweaks, and yeah standing around doing nothing to pump muscle may be boring- but they will fine tune it.. and Wolfgang’s Might will STILL be locked behind the same “Progress” that Wanda has to climb through.

In fact I wouldn’t care if they made a higher tier Dumbell that gives him 3x Might but is absolute end game earned, I wouldn’t care if he got an Amulet of great speed that was a very late game item he can unlock- What I care about is prior to his rework he just ran around punching things not even needing to build a SCIENCE MACHINE first..

And this Rework fixes that.

 I'm not sure how things work in console dimension, but in our world building crafting stations is not considered be a hard work. It's just a small thing you do early game and never again. 

Klei did not attempted to make Wolfgang more grindy. Gym is less work than eating food and that's intended. Dumbbells have different powers not to slowly progress from worst to best. an axe, a spear and the hambat have different powers. People skip spear and rush the best option using the cheapest option. Always has been. 

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4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

healthy for the game to have different characters with different skill caps. That wendy or wigfrid are brain dead character doesnt make wolfgang, wurt or wormwood deserve a buff , if they deserve a buff it should be because will improve the experience with the character

This it isn't about the strength of your character but the amount of fun you can have with them or how well you align with their personality/traits

Wanda isn't Wolfgang she has the damage but not that oh so sexy look i mean she lacks his hp pool and Wolfgang lacks her cool timey wimey nonsense

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1 minute ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

This it isn't about the strength of your character but the amount of fun you can have with them or how well you align with their personality/traits

Wanda isn't Wolfgang she has the damage but not that oh so sexy look i mean she lacks his hp pool and Wolfgang lacks her cool timey wimey nonsense

i know for that i said that

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4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i know for that i said that

And i agree :)

I still dunno how people compare Wolfgang and Wanda when she is literally a time warping, teleporting, old Gran that hits like a truck when on her death bed. And they compare her to the simplistic young dumb buff tank of a man that loves to eat and lift like these aren't completely different types of characters and yet people wonder why they don't play the same

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28 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i dont want this argumentation going futher, i just shared my opinion on how we should treat downsides for a, imo, more constructive feedback, nothing else

I'd like to convince people that Wanda is more sturdy than they give her credit. Nightmare armor is 4 times stronger than football helmet, and coincidentally Wanda has 4 times less hp than default characters (in boomer mode alone). It is the best armor, but is it more expensive? Not really, just a couple of reeds. Shadow manipulator is number 1 priority already, nightmare fuel too. And you can collect reeds by hand or you can use lureplant and reeds trap, or use multiple lureplants in a dense reeds area with 8-12 in the screen range and swap to wiker once a year. Or you can cheese shadow boss to get eternal night armor. 

So yeah, her fragile body is not something that should be focused on. Rather, her need to always carry body armor on her while other characters don't need that. Is this really worth paying attention to?

She is also weak to non physical damage so uh... use thermal stone, don't just stand in a fire and most importantly - don't starve.

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So a quick and short opinion to improve Wolf current status.

Honestly, i think its hilarious to see the lift animations , nothing some minor tweaks can fix. I get some Jojo vibes when thinking of doing it in front of some bosses. It's mostly about mighty duration and how faster it fills and how long it lasts. 
- Should it be repetitive? Kinda? not a lot.
- Filling speed: Of course it should be fast.. around 3secs~5secs more and it becomes really tedious , it should be tolerable and memorable ( Think about it like casting a long ability for buffs )
- Duration: It should last longer (with the basic item~half a day or 1/4) , gym making it last more ( idk.. 3 days?, to make it worth to quickly speedrun bosses , since we are exchanging some losses ~  not all the playerbase is casually playing.. hence the choice to pick different styles/characters for a purpose)


Of course that's my opinion we all know we can trust Klei and isn't the final stage of the rework.. so don't get too negative about it :D


Edit: So.. since i was away from the game for a long time because work and only saw videos about this, i had the time to actually try it.
Honestly.. it's not as bad as i expected, the speed issue isn't even noticeable if you consider we traded it for a bunch of "strong man" perks , carrying strong armors without penalty and more backpack slots early? .
Also the damage numbers are really constant now.. and believe me it adds up a lot in bosses.
I like the heavy lifting of bosses statues if you prepare the field in each boss arena. 
So what i would add now? i'm thinking in a way to provide something to the team. Everyone should be able to use the gym getting a lower damage buff. 


Good rework Klei :)

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10 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

 

I just wanted to give examples, like i said i dont typically get hit by the bosses. but she does have effectively 40 health if you’re going to be granny mode the entire boss fight. Shadow armor is good for this, but between you and me, i prefer marble because the speed penalty doesn’t matter if she can use the backstep, and the sanity penalty per hit and hunting down papyrus is annoying since i dont live in or near the swamp, though teleportation would fix that in a really long world. 
the health thing IS something to note. The damage isn’t better than wolfgangs either. The range is nice, but if you are using the backstep as reliably as you claim then the range doesnt even help for bossfights, as you’re using the backstep to dodge faster anyway. 
you seem alright too, and I prefer wanda to wolfgang i want to be very clear about that. I just dont think she beats wolfgang as easily as its claimed she does. 

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20 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

I just wanted to give examples, like i said i dont typically get hit by the bosses. but she does have effectively 40 health if you’re going to be granny mode the entire boss fight. Shadow armor is good for this, but between you and me, i prefer marble because the speed penalty doesn’t matter if she can use the backstep, and the sanity penalty per hit and hunting down papyrus is annoying since i dont live in or near the swamp, though teleportation would fix that in a really long world. 
the health thing IS something to note. The damage isn’t better than wolfgangs either. The range is nice, but if you are using the backstep as reliably as you claim then the range doesnt even help for bossfights, as you’re using the backstep to dodge faster anyway. 
you seem alright too, and I prefer wanda to wolfgang i want to be very clear about that. I just dont think she beats wolfgang as easily as its claimed she does. 

Wanda does not looses sanity from night armor in her granny mode. It's another perk of hers. 

The damage IS better due to range, making you do extra hits. Backsteping also makes you do better damage than kiting Wolfgang. And also due to it being 142.8 instead of 136.

The health thing is ignored because you can easily take zero damage, and when you make mistake and do get hit - you loose 10% of your granny hp, while your heal restores 50% per use. 5 mistakes are allowed in the spam of 2 minutes if you have just 1 heal clock. 

Range helps to do extra hits in all the fights where backstep is unused. 

I think she beats him very easily. 

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1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

 I'm not sure how things work in console dimension, but in our world building crafting stations is not considered be a hard work. It's just a small thing you do early game and never again. 

Klei did not attempted to make Wolfgang more grindy. Gym is less work than eating food and that's intended. Dumbbells have different powers not to slowly progress from worst to best. an axe, a spear and the hambat have different powers. People skip spear and rush the best option using the cheapest option. Always has been. 

Yeah see there’s a massive difference between PC gaming & Console gaming: On console in particular people seem to enjoy short burst sessions (at least from mine and my friends lists perspective) and mini-games: Klei has filled the game with Mini-Games- There are 4 in the Trade Inn Lobby, 3 in the Mid Summers Cawnival, 1 if you give a belt to PigKing, I’m pretty sure when the Mini-Game comes to console: Your going to get positive responses from the Gym Mini-Game because: People on Xbox love them.

What they DON’T like are 10+ Hour Quests they need to do to get to new content to enjoy: There are reasons behind this, but the most noteable one is that Klei Official & Dedicated Servers do not at the time of this post: Exist on XBOX Console- And never have… Which means: For Xbox players all worlds are PLAYER Hosted, Meaning all worlds are played under a Hosts world Gen settings- Darkness, Bosses, Hound Waves, Sanity Monsters Etc can all be toggled off, The host can have the world locked to 24/7 Summer or Winter: It’s like a Grab bag of what your going to get when joining a Server.

However: Since all worlds are Hosted by a player & under their rules- Most people only play in those servers for a few hours and then the host logs offline & you never see that world again.

Almost all reworked characters with exception to Willow, Wes & Woodie: have to progress through different “tiers” of Crafting Usually in the order of stone, gold, and then Gems in recipe costs: This may be a short thing YOU do early game then never do again…

But consider that this is the XBOX Loop, this is how WE Play.. there are very few Xbox players still hosting 10,000 day worlds: Because most worlds don’t even last past spring.

The “Grind” to gather crafting ingredients to set up the Science, Alchemy, Prestihatitator, to get better more powerful character abilities is OUR Gameplay loop..

And personally I find the starting part of just struggling to collect stuff and get established the most fun part of the entire game.

People have varying playing experiences & im sure that’s what Klei took into account when creating this rework.. Some people may not be to thrilled about it- but I’m pretty sure once it goes live on Xbox your going to get a whole different perspective of opinions.

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Don't starve console players are like 3th world county's citizens. noone cares about their problems. 

And mods and good controls are like medicine and clean water to them. A foreign concept. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a joke, don't hate me. 

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4 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Wanda does not looses sanity from night armor in her granny mode. It's another perk of hers. 

The damage IS better due to range, making you do extra hits. Backsteping also makes you do better damage than kiting Wolfgang. And also due to it being 142.8 instead of 136.

The health thing is ignored because you can easily take zero damage, and when you make mistake and do get hit - you loose 10% of your granny hp, while your heal restores 50% per use. 5 mistakes are allowed in the spam of 2 minutes if you have just 1 heal clock. 

Range helps to do extra hits in all the fights where backstep is unused. 

I think she beats him very easily. 

I’ll test all of this when i get home, give me a few hours and i’ll update you

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7 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Don't starve console players are like 3th world county's citizens. noone cares about their problems. 

And mods and good controls are like medicine and clean water to them. A foreign concept. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a joke, don't hate me. 

To tell the truth (no jokes) Players on PC probably can just aim somewhere and throw the Dumbell by clicking on screen, For us Console Peasants it’s likely going to be like Wortox’s always on the ground circle indicator, or water balloons, or Fishing rods you can’t adjust the range or length your throwing them.. you have to line that circle up just right where you want it and then perform the action.

I hope it’s more like Walter for console players (sees bird or rabbit in sight press X to Attack prompt pops up game automatically does the rest) but since I’ve heard PC players complaining about “missing” their target I’m pretty sure console players will be more like Wortox on ground indicator so we also “Miss” too.

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I really don’t understand why people are trying to say that Wanda is better at combat than Wolf.

Wanda is the best in the game at kiting, and kiting is the most powerful strategy.  She also has a lot of additional utility and that makes it easy to make the argument she is a better character but it doesn’t automatically make her a better fighter.

Wanda is basically forced to use either a dark sword or the alarming clock to fight with, which gives her great damage but also means she’s limited to one powerful strategy.

While the alarming clock is the best weapon in terms of damage against most targets, she can’t effectively use darts, ranged weapons, the morning star, or effectively tank her way through problems.

Wolfgang is a combat generalist and able to use every weapon effectively.  Many of the weapons are disappointing even in his hands, but the hambat, blow dart, dark sword, morning star, and shield of terror are not, and dumbbell tosses have a niche as well.

While it’s fair to feel like there is still room for improvement before release, to say that a character is either the best in their niche or ruined is absurd.

 

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On 12/14/2021 at 8:16 AM, Toros said:

I really don’t understand why people are trying to say that Wanda is better at combat than Wolf.

Wanda is the best in the game at kiting, and kiting is the most powerful strategy.  She also has a lot of additional utility and that makes it easy to make the argument she is a better character but it doesn’t automatically make her a better fighter.

Wanda is basically forced to use either a dark sword or the alarming clock to fight with, which gives her great damage but also means she’s limited to one powerful strategy.

While the alarming clock is the best weapon in terms of damage against most targets, she can’t effectively use darts, ranged weapons, the morning star, or effectively tank her way through problems.

Wolfgang is a combat generalist and able to use every weapon effectively.  Many of the weapons are disappointing even in his hands, but the hambat, blow dart, dark sword, morning star, and shield of terror are not, and dumbbell tosses have a niche as well.

While it’s fair to feel like there is still room for improvement before release, to say that a character is either the best in their niche or ruined is absurd.

 

What you not get?

Wanda is best combat character because she can kill all bosses in the first year (minus bearger). Simple as that. 

Forced into using infinite weapon with double range that deal same damage per hit as Wolfgang with wet morning star. What a nightmare. 

Your utility weapons all suck. Every one of them. 

Also for the last time Wanda is not a glass cannon God damn it, she can take 40 hits from spiders or hounds without healing. She can take 8 hits from dragonfly without healing, and 5 more per each heal use. And yes, I'm talking old Wanda only. 

To hell with it, call wigfrid the best fighter for all of her silly combat perks. 

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2 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Wanda is best combat character because she can kill all bosses in the first year

like every character (?)

 

2 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Forced into using infinite weapon with double range that deal same damage per hit as Wolfgang with wet morning star. What a nightmare

actually some users calc it and seems like is the same dps than wolfg with a darksword since wanda hits slower with her clock. She has more damage per hit, tho

 

3 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Also for the last time Wanda is not a glass cannon God damn it, she can take 40 hits from spiders or hounds without healing. She can take 8 hits from dragonfly without healing, and 5 more per each heal use. And yes, I'm talking old Wanda only

isnt the best glass cannon desing but x2 damage and can take 8 hits from dragonfly vs x2 damage and being able to tank 80 hits from df makes a difference

wolfgang shouldnt lose speed but lets make klei nerf Wanda. I dont get this mentality

5 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

To hell with it, call wigfrid the best fighter for all of her silly combat perks. 

totally, faceroll character but needed when people need to learn how to survive season while learning that few spiders can kill you easy

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6 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

actually some users calc it and seems like is the same dps than wolfg with a darksword since wanda hits slower with her clock. She has more damage per hit, tho

Per hit I said per hit! The last thing I need is accurate damage calculation, when it's inaccurate anyways since it counts nonstop hitting which is not how you fight bosses - you kite and generally won't be able to do an extra hit mid dodges because of a slightly faster speed. 

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