Opinions on Wolfgang's Refresh?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

30 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Can someone actually give me Wanda's downsides aside from slowly dying all the time, like what prevents people from just staying at her young age?

young age is a myth i never seen it

[Gi-Go]

Just now, Toros said:

My advice to you would just be to play Wanda.

But of course, how did I not figured it out myself. The whole point of this rework was to make Wolfgang players drop him, and make someone else play him. You opened my eyes, wise man. 

[Toros]

Just now, Gi-Go said:

But of course, how did I not figured it out myself. The whole point of this rework was to make Wolfgang players drop him, and make someone else play him. You opened my eyes, wise man. 

You’ve spent 10+ posts making a good argument for Wolfgang still being worse than Wanda for your preferred playstyle, and I agree.

I don’t think old wolfgang or new wolfgang would be able to kill all the bosses in a year if Wanda’s teleporting is a key part of that strategy, which means that Wolf simply can’t compete in that category.

Of course, there’s no point in adding a speed boost to compete with Wanda if she remains the premier boss rusher. Better to let Wanda have that niche and let Wolf do something else.

[Cloakingsumo198]

8 minutes ago, Toros said:

Mightiness in the current form takes 5 seconds per 6.5 minutes to maintain.  At worst, it’s a lateral move compared to having to cook and eat a bunch more food in exchange for mighty.  Difference is now you get consistent 2x damage without having to top off your hunger in combat.

No, it’s not a valid enough reason because Wolf has been given several buffs with the removal of speed boost and max health.

My advice to you would just be to play Wanda.

I will give this perspective it is not how easy it is to lift the weight but what it gives.  Wolfgang isn't as unique as the new characters coming out nor has his rework fully kept to his original perks like all the others. It is disappointing to say the least that the closest character Wolfgang can relate to is Wanda but only due to similar damage values. But Wanda isn't a strongman she is some time person, and all her abilities can't be replicated at all, allowing far greater potential than wolf whilst also being entirely unique.  If wolf had more interactions for his mighty form, I'm sure people would have less issues.

12 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

young age is a myth i never seen it

So just like elite wolfgang's never not being mighty, elite Wanda's can never be young.

[sudoku]

17 minutes ago, Toros said:

Mightiness in the current form takes 5 seconds per 6.5 minutes to maintain.

I think the changes they made to using dumbells in combat are good, because you are being rewarded for doing something in the game (fighting). But i still think the gym and using the dumbell out of combat are just flawed mechanic design at the core because instead of being rewarded for doing something, you are given an extra hoop to jump through no matter how frequently or infrequently you must do it.

[Toros]

4 minutes ago, sudoku said:

I think the changes they made to using dumbells in combat are good, because you are being rewarded for doing something in the game (fighting). But i still think the gym and using the dumbell out of combat are just flawed mechanic design at the core because instead of being rewarded for doing something, you are given an extra hoop to jump through no matter how frequently or infrequently you must do it.

Yes, that’s the point.  Part of Wanda’s downside is that she has to use her watch to reverse her age as her “health” is constantly ticking down.

You invest resources to get a greater return on those resources.

[Yuuko]

32 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

You're saying she is Wilson in her full hp mode, I'm saying she has more survivability than him if you consider night armor to be her character exclusive item (and I do, because using it as others is invalid strategy). 

If you want to consider it that way you can, but you're wrong.  Anyone can use night armor or marble suit for 95% damage reduction.  Anyone planning to take such an amount of damage would be smart to do so XD  Unless in Elder form Wanda has the same penalty using it as anyone else...

7 minutes ago, sudoku said:

I think the changes they made to using dumbells in combat are good, because you are being rewarded for doing something in the game (fighting). But i still think the gym and using the dumbell out of combat are just flawed mechanic design at the core because instead of being rewarded for doing something, you are given an extra hoop to jump through no matter how frequently or infrequently you must do it.

ofc the problem with using dumbbells in combat is that a single hit takes a massive chunk of durability away for a single pump, and if you're mighty you can only throw the dumbbell, meaning you lose durability, gain only 1 pump in might, and need to pick it up again which can mess up inventory management...  imo the system is still lacking in answers for maintaining mighty over extended fights.

[sudoku]

Just now, Toros said:

Yes, that’s the point.  Part of Wanda’s downside is that she has to use her watch to reverse her age as her “health” is constantly ticking down.

You invest resources to get a greater return on those resources.

Hmm, i think a better comparison is Wigfrid.

Wigfrid has to fight enemies to build her meter. Fighting is part of the main gameplay loop of the game so this is what id call good design.

If instead she had to play a vocal chord warmup minigame or stop to polish her spear for 5 seconds every 6 minutes, i wouldnt find that as strong design.

[Yuuko]

24 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

But of course, how did I not figured it out myself. The whole point of this rework was to make Wolfgang players drop him, and make someone else play him. You opened my eyes, wise man. 

tbh - do you want to play Wolfgang, or do you want to speed run?  If you want to speed run, you'll do whatever makes the speed run work.  This was always picking Wolfgang b/c of his perk, but if any other character outclassed him on a run it would quickly change.  The whole point of speed runs is to maximize efficiency whether what we do is intended, thematic, or straight up bug exploitation.

If you want to play Wolfgang, then look at what Wolfgang is as a character, not as a tool for a speed runner.  As far as speed runs go - all existing records will need to be marked as legacy, and new records will need to be recorded from this patch going forward.  For an avid speed runner this should be no surprise.  It happens in many games when they get patched.

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Hmm, i think a better comparison is Wigfrid.

Wigfrid has to fight enemies to build her meter. Fighting is part of the main gameplay loop of the game so this is what id call good design.

If instead she had to play a vocal chord warmup minigame or stop to polish her spear for 5 seconds every 6 minutes, i wouldnt find that as strong design.

I can't not laugh when people give minigames to the other characters as well it just such a bizarre concept lol "vocal warmup minigame"

[Gi-Go]

6 minutes ago, Toros said:

Of course, there’s no point in adding a speed boost to compete with Wanda if she remains the premier boss rusher. Better to let Wanda have that niche and let Wolf do something else.

Alright, let's get REAL.

Speed belongs to Wolfgang. It's part of him, and like I said it was part of him for 8 years now. That's probably longer than you played this game, and meaby even longer than i did. 

Speed and damage is what I based my foundation of this character's play style on long ago, and he grew on me and became dear to my heart. 

I'm not asking klei to ADD speed. I demand them to KEEP it.

You prefer new perks over old one? I don't care. Wolfgang is not your possession and he isn't mine either. It's a character available for everyone.

If someone likes to chop trees more than travel that's none of my business, nor should it be my problem. 

I'm not asking for rework to get canceled, I'm not asking for working speed, or dumbbells, or whatever other stuff they add to be removed for the sake of keeping speed. Im asking to keep both so that everyone were left happy with this rework. Will he become too good then?

I. Don't. Care. 

This is what happened with every other rework, people called litteraly every single character ever since Winona's rework to be overpowered but nothing bad really happened. The game stayed as easy as it ever was.

I demand justice for Wolfgang players, who appreciate old perk over new ones. You can't just dismiss me and say sh*t like "oh well, more people liked the new Wolfgang so your opinion don't matter get lost go play Wanda". 

If klei won't listen then well, shows how little they care about fans that are minority. 

And yeah, I was acting immature at times and just can't seem to shut up about this speed removal thing, but that's because I'm low key upset with how some Wolfgang players are treated. Like we don't matter in the slightest. 

[Cloakingsumo198]

14 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Alright, let's get REAL.

Speed belongs to Wolfgang. It's part of him, and like I said it was part of him for 8 years now. That's probably longer than you played this game, and meaby even longer than i did. 

Speed and damage is what I based my foundation of this character's play style on long ago, and he grew on me and became dear to my heart. 

I'm not asking klei to ADD speed. I demand them to KEEP it.

You prefer new perks over old one? I don't care. Wolfgang is not your possession and he isn't mine either. It's a character available for everyone.

If someone likes to chop trees more than travel that's none of my business, nor should it be my problem. 

I'm not asking for rework to get canceled, I'm not asking for working speed, or dumbbells, or whatever other stuff they add to be removed for the sake of keeping speed. Im asking to keep both so that everyone were left happy with this rework. Will he become too good then?

I. Don't. Care. 

This is what happened with every other rework, people called litteraly every single character ever since Winona's rework to be overpowered but nothing bad really happened. The game stayed as easy as it ever was.

I demand justice for Wolfgang players, who appreciate old perk over new ones. You can't just dismiss me and say sh*t like "oh well, more people liked the new Wolfgang so your opinion don't matter get lost go play Wanda". 

If klei won't listen then well, shows how little they care about fans that are minority. 

And yeah, I was acting immature at times and just can't seem to shut up about this speed removal thing, but that's because I'm low key upset with how some Wolfgang players are treated. Like we don't matter in the slightest. 

Y'ALL DID THIS........These forums....These verbal wars....The infighting....all of these casualties for WHAT just to prove why we had fun doing what we loved IS THIS WHAT YOU WANTED?!?!??

[Toros]

 

51 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Alright, let's get REAL.

Speed belongs to Wolfgang. It's part of him, and like I said it was part of him for 8 years now. That's probably longer than you played this game, and meaby even longer than i did. 

 

It's not, I played Wolfgang before he had a speed boost.  My forum account was made Dec. 8, 2012.  I've had a rework for Wolfgang that I coded without a speed boost since 2017, because he does not need it.

51 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I'm not asking klei to ADD speed. I demand them to KEEP it.

And yeah, I was acting immature at times and just can't seem to shut up about this speed removal thing, but that's because I'm low key upset with how some Wolfgang players are treated. Like we don't matter in the slightest. 

You're in no position to make demands, and your overly emotional whining is less likely to be convincing than well-reasoned arguments, which I've been trying repeatedly and without success to coax from you.
 

51 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I demand justice for Wolfgang players

I'm amazed that you wrote this without the little voice telling you that you're being melodramatic, but since you didn't now I have to suffer the second hand embarrassment on your behalf.

This. is. a. game.  Not only is it a game, it's a sandbox game with no scoring system, and no end.  The whole point is to play and have fun, and you're throwing the words "demand" and "justice" around like there's an actual problem and you have a legitimate grievance.

Please go outside and touch some grass.

[HowlVoid]

1 minute ago, Toros said:

Please go outside and touch some grass.

You're reducing yourself to his level?

Then you're no better. 

If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.

[Toros]

7 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You're reducing yourself to his level?

Then you're no better. 

If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.

I don’t mean it as an insult, I genuinely think if someone is that upset fresh air and nature would be theraputic.

[HowlVoid]

Just now, Toros said:

I don’t mean it as an insult, I genuinely think if someone is that upset fresh air and nature would be theraputic.

You can only interpret it as an insult, dude. 

[Toros]

4 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You can only interpret it as an insult, dude. 

Oh yeah?  

Well I hope you either enjoy a sunny day and a nice breeze, stepping on a nice crunchy leaf, or playing in the snow as I have no idea where in the world you live.

[HowlVoid]

7 minutes ago, Toros said:

Oh yeah?  

Well I hope you either enjoy a sunny day and a nice breeze, stepping on a nice crunchy leaf, or playing in the snow as I have no idea where in the world you live.

That's not what you said, you said, go outside and touch grass.

Stop backtracking.

Literally all of us need to go outside, because we've been in here arguing, but that's not what you said. 

Plus, the guy is just passionate and he's not hurting anyone. He's being dramatic on purpose to be funny, anyone can see that, even if he's being repetitive about it.

If you've exhausted the conversation then move on. We're all taking this too seriously and acting stupid making hour long posts. 

Maybe ask yourself if you should take a break from the forum for a bit. 

[Gi-Go]

10 minutes ago, Toros said:

This. is. a. game.  Not only is it a game, it's a sandbox game with no scoring system, and no end.  The whole point is to play and have fun, and you're throwing the words "demand" and "justice" around like there's an actual problem and you have a legitimate grievance.

Am I not not allowed to make demands as customer and a person for whom the rework is made? Klei don't make reworks for themselves they do it for the fans. Meaby I just used a wrong word but my point is that they aren't doing me a favor with this change. 

Easy for you to not show emotions. You don't care about rework. 

One of my favorite characters is about to stop being fun in my favorite game for absolutely no reason and I'm being dismissed. Sorry for caring I guess.

My only argument is that Wolfgang before the nerf was more fun to me. Noone cares what I think, so I guess that's not valid and well constructed argument. 

It's winter. I can't touch grass. 

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

Am I not not allowed to make demands as customer and a person for whom the rework is made?

Hey man I get you're passionate, trust me no one gets it more than me, but stop while your ahead.

A lot of people back you because look no further than the reacts you've gotten, but Klei gets the final say.

Don't hurt your reputability by going overboard. 

Enjoy old Wolfgang while you can and rest knowing you did everything you could. No sense in making enemies when we can all try to be friends. 

[Gi-Go]

29 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You're reducing yourself to his level?

Then you're no better. 

If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.

Nah, he is absolutely right. I am waisting my time here. Forums are not a place to be in. It's pointless. 

I only came here because Klei made the worst rework so far, and i wanted to provide feedback. or at least have my mind changed.

And even then, only because my PC burned resently, so this is what I do in my free time now I guess. 

I think I made plenty of points on why speed should stay. Meaby they aren't valid for everyone, but at least they exist. Unlike any points on why it shouldn't. 

[HowlVoid]

2 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

 

Then it's time to get a big Mac or some ice cream. 

We've all done the best we can do, both sides have pretty much exhausted every angle by now.

[sudoku]

Yes, lets just remember we all love the game, thats why we're here.

Its okay if someone liked Wolfgang before his rework. Its okay if someone likes how he plays now, and its okay if someone wants a different Wolfgang entirely.

Thats why Klei wants our feedback. Just keep the discussion constructive and respectful.

[Gi-Go]

Just now, HowlVoid said:

Then it's time to get a big Mac or some ice cream. 

We've all done the best we can do, both sides have pretty much exhausted every angle by now.

I guess so. Wish I could at least see explanation on why the nerf tho. 

[Cloakingsumo198]

ALRIGHT bring it in everybody, come on, no stragglers now, we've done what we could and we did our best.

By tomorrow if wolf still isn't what we could have hoped then I'm sure it'll look more like this