Health modifier

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Seero said:

Its not so bad, every boss in game is soloable

in fact, if we imagine if DST was never multiplayer but still had all the content, this would be pretty normal

Actually, when you play DS with their 1000hp bosses you feel boring since there isnt any "farming work" to fight a boss, just wait respawn and bring a weapon...

I love how "sUpER gRindY" and "iMPosSibLe" to beat solo are dst bosses. Makes you stay bussy while not building

[Seero]

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Actually, when you play DS with their 1000hp bosses you feel boring since there isnt any "farming work" to fight a boss, just wait respawn and bring a weapon...

I love how "sUpER gRindY" and "iMPosSibLe" to beat solo are dst bosses. Makes you stay bussy while not building

bussy!?!?!?!?!?

the SW and hamlet bosses can be a big pain in the tush if you're not wolfgang

[ArubaroBeefalo]

14 minutes ago, Seero said:

bussy!?!?!?!?!?

the SW and hamlet bosses can be a big pain in the tush if you're not wolfgang

Quacken with almost dst beefalo hp is a problem? 

Is true that sealnado is powerful but you dont need to be wolf, they already have little hp

About hamlet bosses... i killed them as wilson. The poor iron hulk didnt showcase all their atacks because i was using darksword and they die so quick...

They are difficult, ofc, but the fight is so short and easy if you already know barely how to survive the fight.

Also take in count that in sw only sealnardo comes to you, maybe you will encounter tigershark. So you have 3 bosses, 2 of them with deerclops difficulty and hp and the 3rd one that can be rushed at day 5 with a spear because doesnt deal a lot of damage and has less hp than a big mob from dst, also you fight him when you want

For hamlet is similar, you only have 4 bosses. You chose when and how to fight 3 of them and the 4th one only has <2000hp and very little damage and you can chose not fighting him (herald).

If i have all the time of the world to fight those bosses, why they have less hp than deerclops? I mean, is fun to need farming materials to keep farming bosses which doesnt happend in single player since with anyweapon and armor you can beat them (not even need healing food thanks to armor stack)

Maybe is just me that i got used to dst but i feel bored of DS single player because of that. I dont like to be 99%of the time building but repeating bosses that only last 30s isnt enough to break the routine of being chill bulding 

I even edited the files to give them more hp and damage (armor stack in ds op) except iron hulk because idk how to edit him (where is the iron hulk folder? I could only found the pieces) along with other qol changes like stars from star caller staff lasting 8min except 30secs, recipes tweaks in some items, durability, etc

 

I love having the task of always having resources for fighting raid bosses like weather pains, sanity and healing foods, lazy explorers, high quality armor and weapons, ... is a crafting sandbox so i like farming materials

 

The moonstorm is to grindy, that is something im agree with many in the forum. Is a pain to farm infinity light but isnt because CC has 30000hp, is because you need several hours to farm to repeat the fight

 

[Seero]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

For hamlet is similar, you only have 4 bosses. You chose when and how to fight 3 of them and the 4th one only has <2000hp and very little damage and you can chose not fighting him (herald).

 

I was mainly thinking of sealnado iron hulk and womant queen, I struggle with those 3 a bit

the only difficult bosses in dst are optional, the only 2 bosses that come after you are deerclops and bearger

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, Seero said:

I was mainly thinking of sealnado iron hulk and womant queen, I struggle with those 3 a bit

the only difficult bosses in dst are optional, the only 2 bosses that come after you are deerclops and bearger

Yes, they are difficult. Im sure i would die vs sealnardo if i start a new world. But non forced bosses like womant or ironhulk are difficult but the fight is too short. For examplr you will fight only 1 womant per world (idk why she doesnt respawn to farm honeycombs or something..) so is sad to see that the fight only last few seconds

Iron hulk is so well designed that i started to use weapons weaker than dark sword to enjoy the fight. If you have so much damage iron hulk doesnt have enough time to use all his moves

[StretchVanb]

You have to keep in mind how the majority of players here are, to put it lightly, massive tryhards. I’m just going to make a massive assumption and say that most of the players in this thread have already “completed” the “basic gameplay learning” loop and understand how to survive effectively indefinitely, except for situations involving user input error or mistakes.

 

The majority of the players of this game are absolutely not like this. I have friends who are willing to set up a base in a mosaic biome and get pelted with meteors, and others that refuse to use their keyboards. Unless I’m misinterpreting everything about my social situation, the majority of players are going to be like this.

 

In that respect, raid bosses are actually really not in a good spot right now because, even though all of them are technically soloable, none of them are designed to be. They’re all still fun fights, but needing three blue gems and multiple non-renewable resources (pan flutes) just to kill a boss is kinda weird. I mean, most enemies in the game can *technically* be killed with a flint axe, but raid bosses are locked behind advanced equipment or just “lots of people”, which kinda sucks because it means having multiple people is actually the most boring form of the bosses.

But adding some kind of health scaling wouldn’t help because I’d imagine there’s at least a few other players like me out there that work together with other players but are effectively solo when fighting.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

31 minutes ago, StretchVanb said:

They’re all still fun fights, but needing three blue gems and multiple non-renewable resources (pan flutes) just to kill a boss is kinda weird

using more ingame mechanics than press F is weird? i love fights where i need to use different game mechanics and items

also i asume that your example is about DF which imo isnt a good example. 3 blue gems can be obtained very easily even in early game (graves, stalagmites, blue hounds from 1st winter and mctusks hounds...) and pan flutes are renewable via klaus and green gems, the same green gem you will get if you defeat df...

fw is one of the best fight, if not the best, for all the mechanics and items that you need to know and use

[StretchVanb]

35 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

using more ingame mechanics than press F is weird? i love fights where i need to use different game mechanics and items

also i asume that your example is about DF which imo isnt a good example. 3 blue gems can be obtained very easily even in early game (graves, stalagmites, blue hounds from 1st winter and mctusks hounds...) and pan flutes are renewable via klaus and green gems, the same green gem you will get if you defeat df...

fw is one of the best fight, if not the best, for all the mechanics and items that you need to know and use

Fuelweaver is great, I mean you make a good point. I think dfly specifically is a “pet peeve” of mine because it was one of the first damage sponge raid bosses added. 

[Sir Noel]

I really believe that bosses are as good as they'll get right now. Do some bosses have very high health? Yeah... but that's honestly what makes some fights enjoyable. Can you imagine DF only having 5k health? Would be way less difficult/enjoyable to do.

Longer fights typically require different items too, like for DF it's recommended to have a panflute to calm her down, for Toadstool you're gonna need an axe to chop his trees, and even for Klaus if you wanna use ice/fire staffs on the deer to make it slightly easier then you can!

This notion that they should decrease the health because new players would have trouble with them is unfair. Unexperienced players don't have to fight these beefy bosses and they shouldn't be anywhere near them in the first place. Don't forget that at the end of the day... most bosses are optional. Dragonfly, Toadstool, Klaus, Crab King, Bee Queen... really every boss is optional if you think about it!

Klei has purposefully left in cheese methods to make people who don't like longer fights get through them quicker, and if cheesing is boring to you then there's always the old fashioned way! Every boss in this game is very doable solo, what matters is how prepared you are going into the fight. And, once again, if you're having trouble with a boss, take time to understand it. Learn the basics like kiting/tanking, know what you need to have going into a fight and what strategy you will use, and most of all just prepare before jumping into it. Eventually you will have no problem killing bosses.

[GetNerfedOn]

i certainly hope the results and concepts in this old poll of mine provide some insight

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/126606-poll-on-creature-health-scaling/

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Actually, when you play DS with their 1000hp bosses you feel boring since there isnt any "farming work" to fight a boss, just wait respawn and bring a weapon...

I love how "sUpER gRindY" and "iMPosSibLe" to beat solo are dst bosses. Makes you stay bussy while not building

See this right here is where we differ in opinion, what you find Grindy & rewarding other players may just see as unnecessary & time consuming- If someone only has limited time to play they want to enjoy as much content as possible.

Like how The Midsummers Cawnival wasnt 4 hours of preparation and set up, it was all mindless fun anyone could enjoy in 15 minutes or less.

Boss fights in this game can also be short but fun encounters, but I would like for WAY MORE then just their health and damage to scale, when 3 or more players are playing together the bosses should learn some new abilities that make cooperation required or You Die- For example.. maybe the bosses can grab someone up in their clutches and the other two not ensnared team members need to quickly damage the hand to force the boss to let the other player go.

It FORCES Co-op Or you all Die.

In the same way I want it to be HARDER with more players it should get EASIER if solo (none of the above ensnarement abilities, maybe less minion mobs like Larvae, lower health & damages.)

There is clearly room Klei could improve upon this area of the game to make it not just enjoyable for you but for everyone who wants to experience that content.

And I don’t care one bit how mind numbingly casual it can get, as long as there’s options for harder versions I can careless.

Take the current QoL beta as a Perfect example: They casualized the HELL out of Inventory management & Knowing where your at/ where your headed by giving players an option to PAUSE the game during doing these things..

For ME managing your inventory and checking your map while the game is NOT PAUSED plays a massive part into the survival aspects & my enjoyment of the game- And if Klei can Casualize that to what be non-existent with what you have now available to you in the Beta… they can Casualize bosses just as much.

[Capybara007]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

 Take the current QoL beta as a Perfect example: They casualized the HELL out of Inventory management & Knowing where your at/ where your headed by giving players an option to PAUSE the game during doing these things..

Are you assuming that players will pause the game to strategically manage the inventory and speak to the teammates? Because if that is how you think let me tell you that isnt gonna happen, sorry if i missunderstood you.

[Nettalie]

23 hours ago, lakhnish said:

Klaus is one of the best multiplayer bosses for that reason. Compare that to Toadstool who was designed for 6 people :/

Or god forbid misery toadstool who feels like they were designed for 12.

Not in terms of difficulty but trying not to take so long fighting them you die of old age in real life.

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Take the current QoL beta as a Perfect example: They casualized the HELL out of Inventory management & Knowing where your at/ where your headed by giving players an option to PAUSE the game during doing these things..

They... casualized the hell out of game mechanics by providing a quality of life feature...?

You are aware that these things were a thing in ds already right?

[Yuuko]

It would be cool if they added different attack patterns based on either how much damage was dealt in a certain amount of time - similar to dfly rage mode - and how many players are within a certain range.  idk about scaling health though...  I think most bosses have a decent amount of health for single player based on the tools available.  Just need to change up the fights so when 1 person fights dfly its similar to now, but maybe if she gets ko'd when she recovers she starts doing aoe damage until she hits rage or resets.  Or maybe if there are 4+ people around her she'll drop some lava on the ground when she flies around similar to bee queen's honey, giving burn damage to people who stand on the trail.

Just something to spice them up a bit really.

[fishofwar]

As a solo player, I believe enemy health is (for the most part) well balanced. I think the one exception would be Toadstool, but to be perfectly honest I've never bothered with fighting it.

[Milordo]

Ok, let me get straight to the point. I was and still am an advocate for health scaling. Why? 

I always thought, it was a neat idea for balance, improvements, ecc.... My general consent, after teaching the game for too many people and learning/playing since 2013, was that there are very heavy unbalanced parts in Don't Starve together. One of it, the health in players and mobs. Putting aside the characters problem, which is another discussion that always derails in hell, what i always noticed, and for sure all of you guys, is when you play alone the difficulty increases exponentially meanwhile with more players it decreases pretty quickly.

Keep in mind that i do NOT consider at all public servers. They should never be considered in these discussions please and i'm glad in these last years klei noticed it......  And i know a group of new players is more difficult because they do not know what to do and do a lot of mistakes. I had experience in that field. So i'm considering normal players, not necessary "tryhards ones" or "veterans". 

The health scaling would give a help in bosses like bee queen, which are a mess, and even mobs. Because there are a lot of mobs changed in DST to have high hp since klei expected that everybody have always friends ready to play......yeah about that......

But @ArubaroBeefalo bring some neat arguments and others too. You would prefer that bosses would have more special attacks, special patterns, better and new A.i when more players show up in the battelfield. Klaus is an excellent example we all agree, in fact i would say it's much better to AF in terms of this (design, balance,ecc...) and yes it's more smart to do this way. But this does not resolve the problem for normal mobs either because i don't think you'd prefer put new special attacks or different patterns for like the clockworks right? They're fine as they are.

SO, if we find a compromise where bosses have special attacks/ability and new/better A.i when more players show up AND the game would put a slightly health scaling based on the players in the server, so slightly that you still feel weak if you're not with the others but you're doing a little better/ feel strong with others but still need to be careful and you can still change the difficulty for more challenge with bosses like dragonfly and still doing fine if you're alone meanwhile the others are dead on the other biome of the world, would you like that or not? This question is not only for @ArubaroBeefalo but for others too. Sorry for the logn discussion but it is really important for me, i'm really curious. 

[Monkey Cups]

3 hours ago, Nettalie said:

Or god forbid misery toadstool who feels like they were designed for 12.

Not in terms of difficulty but trying not to take so long fighting them you die of old age in real life.

If I ever have to fight vanilla misery toad solo again I will jump off a bridge. I did it once. Never again.

[Mike23Ua]

I’ve killed Dragonfly 3x in my entirety of playing DST- and I can say with no doubt in my mind that the fight is a boring drag when playing alone.

the Pierogi meta doesn’t work either, If I want to fight it as Wormwood or Wurt or even Wanda..

The bosses designs are bad, and the newer characters we get, the more Klei changes the game.. the more they’ll realize this.

plus I genuinely don’t understand the point of them anyway: Why am I fighting this thing?? For bragging rights? For its loots? It’s so called “loots” is a Furnace that keeps Thermal stones at 100% heat & provides infinite light…. That sounds like something designed to make survival EASIER- Not something a VETERAN would even want or need.

And therefore: It should be more easily accessible to the people who struggle staying alive and actually NEED it right?

We have options to toggle More Dragonfly, Less Dragonfly or No Dragonfly at all… but WHERE are the options to toggle how much health it has or damage it does or if it scales in A.I. Based on how many players are fighting it?

the people who want these fights to remain largely unchanged are still also probably playing the game on its Default settings the META WAY..

But many of us have broken away from that mold: My weather seasons and seasons lengths now happen at random, my worlds can be locked to permanent darkness, I can set Flowers to Lots but the Butterflies that spawn from them to none at all, I can even set Nightmare monsters to spawn More often and in larger numbers- Making losing sanity in these dumb fights a death sentencing in of itself…

So the fights NEED Scaling options, there’s no reasoning why they shouldn’t.. If Klei can go through the trouble of making Pearl Nocturnal on Lights Out worlds, they can surely revisit and improve Boss scaling.

[Mantispidae]

I think a health scaling mechanic would be nice, as long as its one that is:

1) Toggleable, and I would leave it off on a server by default. But it would be something you could turn on for smaller/less experienced groups or solo play if you think it would be better. But you would still originally have the non-scaled version first and foremost, so that players coming into the game can see how its going to be most of the time, and then can modify it to their liking to learn.

2) Bosses were all adjusted with their own custom modifiers, so that how they scale can be more balanced than just a blanket percent modification. That way you can still keep the overall feeling of the boss without having it just be an extra-large damage sponge.

 

[Sir Noel]

33 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’ve killed Dragonfly 3x in my entirety of playing DST- and I can say with no doubt in my mind that the fight is a boring drag when playing alone.

The fight is just fine solo, and a boring drag is the last thing I'd describe it.

33 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

the Pierogi meta doesn’t work either, If I want to fight it as Wormwood or Wurt or even Wanda..

There... are other healing options for those characters. And there are much better healing options than pierogis nowadays.

33 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

plus I genuinely don’t understand the point of them anyway: Why am I fighting this thing?? For bragging rights? For its loots? It’s so called “loots” is a Furnace that keeps Thermal stones at 100% heat & provides infinite light…. That sounds like something designed to make survival EASIER- Not something a VETERAN would even want or need.

You're fighting it because it's a boss in the game that drops loot on death. Dragonfly is a really nice way to get lots of extra gems early on and the scaled furnace has a number of uses. "sounds like something designed to make survival easier" um... yeah? That's the point?

33 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And therefore: It should be more easily accessible to the people who struggle staying alive and actually NEED it right?

We have options to toggle More Dragonfly, Less Dragonfly or No Dragonfly at all… but WHERE are the options to toggle how much health it has or damage it does or if it scales in A.I. Based on how many players are fighting it?

the people who want these fights to remain largely unchanged are still also probably playing the game on its Default settings the META WAY..

What is the "meta way"? Preparing for a boss and killing it like the game intends? Dragonfly is honestly one of the easier bosses for solo if you use good strategies. And besides, if you aren't prepared why are you even trying to fight Dragonfly anyway? Like you said, all it drops is things "designed to make survival easier". Don't need to be an option for something that doesn't really need it.

33 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

So the fights NEED Scaling options, there’s no reasoning why they shouldn’t.. If Klei can go through the trouble of making Pearl Nocturnal on Lights Out worlds, they can surely revisit and improve Boss scaling.

Gonna take a shot in the dark here, but maybe they haven't revisited it because it's not really something too important they need to revisit. Not saying they won't in the future, but they have way more important things to focus on as of now.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

40 minutes ago, Milordo said:

 

the problem with hp based on players on the server is that, sometimes, players go alone to defeat a boss to split tasks or more players come to the fight when it was already started so what happen in these scenarios?

 

16 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’ve killed Dragonfly 3x in my entirety of playing DST- and I can say with no doubt in my mind that the fight is a boring drag when playing alone.

personal preference, for me is a very satisfactory fight

16 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

he Pierogi meta doesn’t work either, If I want to fight it as Wormwood or Wurt or even Wanda..

there is no pierogi meta, there is plenty of accesible healing options.

For wormwood you can use batbats for quick healing and honey poultice for healing in moments when you can do the animation safely.

Wurt, and more after rwys, has a lot of options for healing. Also she can bring warriors to make the fight faster and easier. With few you can stun df to get an extra scale and deal a lot of free damage to her

Wanda only needs a night armor (you can tank arround 4 or 3 hits in old age) and bring more ageless watchs if needed, her backstep watch makes kiting her easy. Also she has access to huge damage so the fight will be short to need that much resources. She can stun her too

21 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

plus I genuinely don’t understand the point of them anyway: Why am I fighting this thing?? For bragging rights? For its loots? It’s so called “loots” is a Furnace that keeps Thermal stones at 100% heat & provides infinite light…. That sounds like something designed to make survival EASIER- Not something a VETERAN would even want or need.

for the 5th time. The furnace doesnt make the game easier just less grindy, if you have problems having a heat and light source in your base (the place where you will want to build the furnace) then you dont deserve to have the furnace. A veteran or any player able to fight her want it so that player doesnt need to chop trees every few days to fuel a fire in their base. Is useless since you will repeat this nonsense again but well...

 

24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And therefore: It should be more easily accessible to the people who struggle staying alive and actually NEED it right?

 

not at all, if you want qol items or op loot deal with the bosses. What would be the logic behind giving to noobs op loot to make the game easier. Are you serious?

 

25 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

We have options to toggle More Dragonfly, Less Dragonfly or No Dragonfly at all… but WHERE are the options to toggle how much health it has or damage it does or if it scales in A.I. Based on how many players are fighting it?

is not that simple. how can you control that a player doesnt start the fight alone and later other players join it after to make it easier? or why would the boss have less hp if you are taking all the loot for yourself?

 

[Yuuko]

Quote

plus I genuinely don’t understand the point of them anyway: Why am I fighting this thing?? For bragging rights? For its loots? It’s so called “loots” is a Furnace that keeps Thermal stones at 100% heat & provides infinite light…. That sounds like something designed to make survival EASIER- Not something a VETERAN would even want or need.

I suppose you'd prefer an optional boss that destroys all constructed objects on the surface once you defeat it? lol

Quote

the Pierogi meta doesn’t work either, If I want to fight it as Wormwood or Wurt or even Wanda..

Wanda has a pretty easy dfly with backstep watch.  WHICH WORKS THE EXACT SAME WAY ON CONSOLE VS PC.  With Wanda vs dfly I usually just bring 1 dark armor and 1 football helmet in case I mess up, but I never need healing the way I do on other characters where I would typically tank the first hit each cycle plus mistakes.

26 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the problem with hp based on players on the server is that, sometimes, players go alone to defeat a boss to split tasks or more players come to the fight when it was already started so what happen in these scenarios?

This is a real concern - People can get pretty toxic when you give them the right situation.  I wouldn't want to incentivize harassing people off a server b/c you're trying to do a boss fight.  Even if you zone it so that a boss's health scales dynamically based on proximity, you still run into the risk of someone trolling or being toxic to others with this feature.

I don't see anything wrong with the health of current bosses EXCEPT TS/MTS and CK.  I think those could come down a decent amount, and then we'd be fine.  Yes a boss is easier with multiple people there for most fights, but they are all possible solo even without cheese.  I think its better to simple add more dynamic attack patterns and behaviors rather than scale up health.

[TemporarySolutn]

 

On 9/28/2021 at 3:50 PM, Hornete said:

I think it feels very "fake" and video-gamey to simply increase a mobs health the more players there are, and DS/T to me always had its environment and mobs feel very real.

I feel that its missing alot, like I mean nothing really does anything everything kinda sits and place and might sometimes attack a bad guy, nothing really roams or has like food chains, why frogs not eat bugs? 

[Sir Noel]

45 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I don't see anything wrong with the health of current bosses EXCEPT TS/MTS and CK.  I think those could come down a decent amount, and then we'd be fine.  Yes a boss is easier with multiple people there for most fights, but they are all possible solo even without cheese.  I think its better to simple add more dynamic attack patterns and behaviors rather than scale up health.

Crab King especially is the one that needs to change like, now. Sure Ancient Guardian is forced on you to get to Fuelweaver, but at least AG is extremely easy even solo. 

You need Crab King in order to get to Celestial Champion, and CK is easily the worst boss in the game, not just because the mechanics are all over the place (if it was more balanced it would be pretty fun imo) but the health is absurd for a boss that heals itself constantly, can literally perma freeze you, and can very easily break your boat. I know there are new strats out now that can make it cheesable but this boss is just... oof. Trying to do it the regular way is just not worth it, you gotta cheese this one.

Even if you don't like Misery/Toadstool, at the end of the day it's more an optional/challenge boss. CK is forced on you and you need to do it to get to CC. If they revisit anything, they need to revisit him.

[Monkey Cups]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the problem with hp based on players on the server is that, sometimes, players go alone to defeat a boss to split tasks or more players come to the fight when it was already started so what happen in these scenarios?

If one person goes to fight dragonfly or any other boss alone while other people are on the server then nothing changes, really. It'd be exactly like doing that now.