MondayNight Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 I remember seeing en passant, recently, 2-3 comments about a - as per thread's title - change of the Fire spreading/Heat damage mechanic that invalidates any form of boss/mob "oven" take-down method (including QB and Toad). Didn't care at the time I've read respective comments, but the subject resurfaced on a server am playing currently (some people tried above-mentioned methods and failed flamboyantly, as expected via the new "sneaky" change). Wanted to re-read them and maybe get a more detailed explanation of said changes, but for the life of me I can't yield any meaningful result via search function, and can't remember who were the posters discussing subject at hand. So can someone pls post here a lapidary explanation of what the fire/head mechanic changes were or point me towards comments/discussions on this matter? Ty! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 I don't think there were any official comments from the devs about it honestly the changes feel completely unnecessary, not sure what they were supposed to accomplish Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jivesukka Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 My Bee Queen oven broke in this update. I tried all kinds of methods to get it working again but no luck. Seems there is almost a cooldown before it can ignite again. Oh well, back to catapaults and bunny houses. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dextops Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 13 minutes ago, jivesukka said: My Bee Queen oven broke in this update. I tried all kinds of methods to get it working again but no luck. Seems there is almost a cooldown before it can ignite again. Oh well, back to catapaults and bunny houses. heard its impossible now with mini signs but possible with rope source:dude just trust me (for real try doing this in a test world i don't wanna be responsible for any deaths to beequeen the fbi has already put me on a list) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 6 hours ago, Dextops said: heard its impossible now with mini signs but possible with rope source:dude just trust me you got that from me smh I thought I made it clear secret stuff stayed inside the secret chat when I invited you Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin0616 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 They changed heat propagation on the release of Waterlogged (474494), and again in update 475356. The breaking change was on the release of Waterlogged, where they introduced a max heat gain per update tick. The max heat was set to (flashpoint / 2) * 0.5 As of 475356, they tweaked it slightly to make it more code friendly and added some eased randomness to the "stop spreading" method of the propagator. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baark0 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 darn, looks like you'll actually have to fight the boss Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falkenpelz Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 Wait, what happened exactly? Can someone give a short explanation of what does/doesn't work now? So, is it for example no longer possible to kill beequeen through fire damage from burning stuff, while freezing her next to a magma pool? (Do not comment on this ridiculous 45 min strat itself, it's the only way I ever took her down) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parusoid Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 On 8/22/2021 at 11:36 AM, penguin0616 said: They changed heat propagation on the release of Waterlogged (474494), and again in update 475356. The breaking change was on the release of Waterlogged, where they introduced a max heat gain per update tick. The max heat was set to (flashpoint / 2) * 0.5 As of 475356, they tweaked it slightly to make it more code friendly and added some eased randomness to the "stop spreading" method of the propagator. how does it affect the gameplay now? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MondayNight Posted August 23, 2021 Author Share Posted August 23, 2021 On 8/22/2021 at 6:30 PM, Baark0 said: darn, looks like you'll actually have to fight the boss There are plenty easy strats to kill raid bosses outside of "ovens" that imply 0 armor and no melee weapon(s) at all - aka non kiting/tanking. For example I can do BQ as Walter with nothing aside 2 Turkeys, some Walls and a lot of Pellets - if am very sadistic and lazy patient, I can use only-but stacks of Rocks, since I usually camp in Caves and have them freely delivered and gathered in-bulk, chests stacked (not mentioning the stacks of Gold and Marble also piling up over time). But that's beside the point of this thread. I wanted to know what and how exactly was modified in the spreading of fires and/or heat damage mechanic. If KLei wants to uproot any-and-all easy/"cheese" strats to remain solely with normal kiting/tanking, then they have a long-long way to go. Not mentioning doing so will shorten the shelf-life of their game, proverbially "shooting themselves in the foot". If only available strategies were said kite/tank, I for one would've been gone from DST a very long time ago. Emergent gameplay I reckon was a thing. Still not saying all bugs that make for "cheese" should remain, au contraire: blatantly easy exploits should go. Much to discuss with various degrees of subjective assessment, yet, once more - is beside the point in OP. 15 hours ago, Falkenpelz said: Wait, what happened exactly? Can someone give a short explanation of what does/doesn't work now? That's what I also would fancy. 9 hours ago, Parusoid said: how does it affect the gameplay now? Yep, some explanations and examples would be excellent, again still hoping someone would detail aside "wink-wink, strat changed, only insiders know, hehe". Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dextops Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 4 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said: Yep, some explanations and examples would be excellent, again still hoping someone would detail aside "wink-wink, strat changed, only insiders know, hehe". don't really know exactly but the way the fire spread mechanic worked was changed making the mini sign version of the oven incapable of working but doing it but replacing the signs with a lot of rope would work but at a slower rate pretty sure so it isn't completely gone Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 Its updates like this that make me wanna quit the game :\ they got rid of mosslings being preserved into summer and the Klei dev response indicated they had ZERO CLUE what the reason was to actually use this. Now they're ruining fire farms. If I wanted to play combat simulator I would, thx no thx Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Rage Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 I thought mosslings always disappeared at the very end of spring. They simply fly away. xd I never noticed them staying longer than spring, even if (or especially) when being in close proximity. Klaus you can keep around for as long as you want, as long as you stay near him and don't let him despawn. What good are mosslings for in the summer? Inducing thunder and rain..? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tin04ka Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 I, for one, welcome the change. Bundling wrap is arguably the best item in the game and it doesn't feel right that you can get it on like day 5 with almost no skill or effort. As for moslings, devs know the exploit was used to summon rain and prevent wildfires and they said they would consider adding a way to summon rain to the game. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cropo Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 I am having such a hard time understanding this but if I had to make an assumption is this nerfing the suncaller staff and ice flingo permastun? (I like to call it Stuncaller staff). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1487961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MondayNight Posted August 25, 2021 Author Share Posted August 25, 2021 This lad made a pretty comprehensive analysis about subject at hand, and his conclusions: Quote The overall conclusion is that for the combustibles 【within 6 geometric points from the heat source】, the time from the Ice Flingomatic extinguish the combustibles to re-smolder is a fixed 7.5S or 8s in the previous version.(Before 2021.8.19) In the current version, this time is a fluctuate value. The probability of 50% will fall into the interval of 【9, 12.5】.The theoretical calculation interval is 【3.5, 14】. As for the ingame behavior there is no doubt about the minimum value 3.5s, and the maximum value may be about 16S.(After 2021.8.19) Source. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1488263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatJash Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 I kind of liked fire farms, or "ovens". They were cool to set up and fun to kill bosses with. Kinda sad they don't work anymore. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1488295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 awful change tbh Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1488336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 44 minutes ago, Guille6785 said: awful change tbh Nah, good change. As I've said they are exploits. At some point they'll probably patch fuelweaver and toadtool exploits too. Whatever, I'll just have to use Winonas catapults for the first time. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1488347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirsg Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 I disagree with "exploit" changes. I fight almost all the bosses manually and may not actually automate farming them for the most part, but this is human vs beast. Humans don't lose to any animal. We're not the strongest, we're not the fastest, we don't have claws or fangs, but we are smarter. Exploits against your bee queen, your dragonfly, your this, your that, they're all clever methods people have found throughout the years to destroy bosses in ways that suit them. I don't want everyone to play the game the way I do. I don't want to play the game in only one single way for the rest of my life. Taking away a lot of these mechanics forces a single playstyle and takes away many methods of playing the game. Whenever I see anyone say "Fix this mechanic, take away this exploit" I just see "Noooooo you're playing the game wrong. You must play it my way" It's a bit like my opinion on wildfires. Don't remove them, but add feasible ways to combat them, not reduce the inventive ways that people solve these problems. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1488352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 47 minutes ago, HowlVoid said: Nah, good change. As I've said they are exploits. fire farms weren't exploits, if they wanted to patch bq oven (which there's no reason for, cheeses like these don't affect anyone) they should've just removed her collision against mobs, this change is shitty and limits creativity because fire farms can be used for other things Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1488355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 54 minutes ago, Guille6785 said: fire farms weren't exploits, if they wanted to patch bq oven (which there's no reason for, cheeses like these don't affect anyone) they should've just removed her collision against mobs, this change is shitty and limits creativity because fire farms can be used for other things It doesn't necessarily take a "bug" for something to be an exploit. Do you think the devs intend for things to die within seconds to fire? No, it limits creativity. I don't use fire farms so I seek alternative ways to up my damage as Wormwood. That can be using deerclops or lureplants to expedite phase 1. Why would anyone bother with alternative methods when you have an almost instant kill field. Fire farms are only useful for killing mobs so I'm unsure just how much creativity can be had with a one trick pony. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1488363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said: It doesn't necessarily take a "bug" for something to be an exploit. Do you think the devs intend for things to die within seconds to fire? No, it limits creativity. I don't use fire farms so I seek alternative ways to up my damage as Wormwood. That can be using deerclops or lureplants to expedite phase 1. Why would anyone bother with alternative methods when you have an almost instant kill field. Fire farms are only useful for killing mobs so I'm unsure just how much creativity can be had with a one trick pony. I can understand why you don't like them but I don't understand how denying players the option to use them is beneficial to you Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1488366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 16 hours ago, Guille6785 said: I can understand why you don't like them but I don't understand how denying players the option to use them is beneficial to you I'm praising the change but I did not advocate for it. I don't believe I have ever pushed for the banning of exploits. I understand the statement the devs are making with this change. Should they revert it, yeah, it wont affect me and I'll remain indifferent to its existence. (I only don't like it for my personal use) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1488371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Rage Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 The community tends to have preconceived notions that bosses are of poor design as soon as new ones is added to the game and instead of learning how to fight them they rely on gimmicky imperfections in the game engine to take them down. Thus the general whine persists. It took me ages to learn how to fight Klaus as Willow but in the end it was a gratifying experience. The fight still poses a challenge while finally feeling manageable. Most bosses are actually well designed, regarding kiting patterns and attacks, and so are the items made for battling them. Likewise, it won't affect me personally while playing that people are burning bosses in the most obscure and gimmicky ways possible, since I never tried to set up such farming methods, but since parts of the community seems reliant on such things it makes me believe that the developers could become discouraged when designing new bosses and content since it will meet the same one-trick-pony fate as @HowlVoid points out above. It is one thing to figure out a farming method on your own. That is a gratifying thing. However, if players start relying on these things without having a clue on how to battle bosses, because the farming methods become so prevalent, it probably won't be healthy for the community, nor make for exciting game design, nor do the future content of the game any good. You are right indeed, however - to each their own. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132866-recent-change-of-the-fire-spreadingheat-damage-mechanic/#findComment-1488379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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