[Spaced Out! Update] - 457903

[crbd115]

3 hours ago, CheeseGromit said:

I'm just going to highlight this because it stalled my last base. It feels like a design oversight not having access to reed fiber on either of the two most accessible planets.

I agree with this partially because I don't think duplicants should be able to go out into vacuums without suits in the first place. But also because I find it inconsistent that one start has access to it when the other doesn't. It would make sense if one start had one way and the other had a different way not the way it is now where the sandstone has both dreckos and plants and the swamp has neither.

 

2 hours ago, marioespinho said:

well, it's pretty easy to just fly a rocket to the third planet and get acess to drecko ranching, so i wouldn't call it an oversight, but more like another step that needs to be overcomed.

One of the things i liked about the multi-asteroid thing is that it makes some stuff not easily acessible, and forces us to adapt. It gives the same vibes that the game gave when i first played it.

I like having things be gated by asteroids and different starts but a core mechanic like suits should more be gated by the method to get them not getting them in the first place. Like maybe one start has dreckos but no reed fiber, another has reed fiber but no dreckos, and maybe they eventually make a third way to get fiber. I since the two current methods are agriculture based it would be neat to have a manufacturing based method. 

[Friar Tuck]

On 3/27/2021 at 5:38 AM, Ipsquiggle said:

• Rearranged the tech tree to move Conveyor Rails earlier.

But left the chute needing atomic research?

[CheeseGromit]

6 hours ago, marioespinho said:

well, it's pretty easy to just fly a rocket to the third planet and get acess to drecko ranching, so i wouldn't call it an oversight, but more like another step that needs to be overcomed.

One of the things i liked about the multi-asteroid thing is that it makes some stuff not easily acessible, and forces us to adapt. It gives the same vibes that the game gave when i first played it.

I've done the first part of this but it's been time consuming and a bit frustrating. I've got 'access' to drecko through the printing pod now, which is the lame method but I'm going to run with it. I'll see what I can establish on the third planet, it's going to take a while since it's a weird planet with a large space exposed vacuum in the centre.

I understand challenges and adapting. I like that the game provides different options to solve the same problems. In this case it feels like the right tools weren't available at the right time. I'd be very interested to know what the design intention is here. Should atmo suits be more accessible and perhaps use different materials for construction if reed fiber isn't available? What are the intended use cases for oxygen masks vs atmo suits? I guess I feel the whole space thing should be done with atmo suits.

As a slight aside, why does -50°C not pose a health threat like +100°C and thus require the hazard protection of an atmo suit?

4 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I agree with this partially because I don't think duplicants should be able to go out into vacuums without suits in the first place. But also because I find it inconsistent that one start has access to it when the other doesn't. It would make sense if one start had one way and the other had a different way not the way it is now where the sandstone has both dreckos and plants and the swamp has neither.

Agreed. The other alternative would be different construction materials for atmo suits where reed fiber isn't available.

Out of curiousity, did drecko always provide a source of reed fiber?

[crbd115]

1 hour ago, CheeseGromit said:

I understand challenges and adapting. I like that the game provides different options to solve the same problems. In this case it feels like the right tools weren't available at the right time. I'd be very interested to know what the design intention is here. Should atmo suits be more accessible and perhaps use different materials for construction if reed fiber isn't available? What are the intended use cases for oxygen masks vs atmo suits? I guess I feel the whole space thing should be done with atmo suits.

As a slight aside, why does -50°C not pose a health threat like +100°C and thus require the hazard protection of an atmo suit?

Agreed. The other alternative would be different construction materials for atmo suits where reed fiber isn't available.

Out of curiousity, did drecko always provide a source of reed fiber?

I feel the same way, I did a post suggesting changes to make space something that shouldn't/cant be done without at least some protection. Also as far as I know the drecko always provided reed fiber but I wasn't in the beta when it was introduced so I'm not 100% sure on that.

[marioespinho]

8 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I like having things be gated by asteroids and different starts but a core mechanic like suits should more be gated by the method to get them not getting them in the first place. Like maybe one start has dreckos but no reed fiber, another has reed fiber but no dreckos, and maybe they eventually make a third way to get fiber. I since the two current methods are agriculture based it would be neat to have a manufacturing based method. 

 

3 hours ago, CheeseGromit said:

I've done the first part of this but it's been time consuming and a bit frustrating. I've got 'access' to drecko through the printing pod now, which is the lame method but I'm going to run with it. I'll see what I can establish on the third planet, it's going to take a while since it's a weird planet with a large space exposed vacuum in the centre.

I understand challenges and adapting. I like that the game provides different options to solve the same problems. In this case it feels like the right tools weren't available at the right time. I'd be very interested to know what the design intention is here. Should atmo suits be more accessible and perhaps use different materials for construction if reed fiber isn't available? What are the intended use cases for oxygen masks vs atmo suits? I guess I feel the whole space thing should be done with atmo suits.

As a slight aside, why does -50°C not pose a health threat like +100°C and thus require the hazard protection of an atmo suit?

I believe the problem is that we got too attached to atmo suits in the past, and it was really easy to just rush them and not ever have to worry about anything anymore.

Right now, oxygen masks have a purpose, and making reed fiber or dreckos always acessible at the start would just render them pointless since they are just a weaker version of atmo suits. Getting to the third planet is an easy enough task that could be accomplished with oxygen masks or even without them, to be honest.

To be fully honest, i still think atmo suits are overpowered, and adding the reed fiber cost was nice, but it doesn't change the core issue with them.

But even if you feel like you absolutely need them in your playthrough, them you can start on terra cluster and have them available, so i see no real reason to change how the game is.

Edited March 28, 2021 by marioespinho

[crbd115]

56 minutes ago, marioespinho said:

 

I believe the problem is that we got too attached to atmo suits in the past, and it was really easy to just rush them and not ever have to worry about anything anymore.

Right now, oxygen masks have a purpose, and making reed fiber or dreckos always acessible at the start would just render them pointless since they are just a weaker version of atmo suits. Getting to the third planet is an easy enough task that could be accomplished with oxygen masks or even without them, to be honest.

To be fully honest, i still think atmo suits are overpowered, and adding the reed fiber cost was nice, but it doesn't change the core issue with them.

But even if you feel like you absolutely need them in your playthrough, them you can start on terra cluster and have them available, so i see no real reason to change how the game is.

I don't feel I need them or oxygen masks when I play the game, which is part of the problem in my opinion. I have been able to get around not using both for a long time, which creates a problem in the opposite extreme as well. Duplicants can literally just do most things for an extended period of time by just holding their breath. I have completed multiple full asteroids telescope areas and sent duplicants to other asteroids to colonize them without them. You can pretty much do anything without them if you know the basic strategies to circumvent why you would need them.
 Yes I fully agree they are overpowered even now and have said so many times and posted multiple suggestions on how to rebalance them. The reason why I believe we should have them on the first planet is because it makes absolutely no sense to be able to go out into the vacuum of space without them from a logic standpoint. You cannot hold your breath in a vacuum and any liquid exposed to a vacuum begins to boil.
 This is easy to rebalance. You can change the recipe to gate them such as adding glass or small amount of steel to the recipe. You can lower the oxygen supply they can store to force you to build them only in entrances to areas you need them. Space can have debuffs associated to it for being exposed to it similarly to how hazardous gases work now in the dlc. I have said all of these many times in suggestions and discussions.

[sakura_sk]

1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

The reason why I believe we should have them on the first planet is because it makes absolutely no sense to be able to go out into the vacuum of space without them from a logic standpoint. You cannot hold your breath in a vacuum and any liquid exposed to a vacuum begins to boil.

Please don't bring sense and logic into a game and suck all the fun out of it... Especially in ONI's case. If we would apply logic to ONI, we shouldn't have a game in the first place. Because it is just illogical to print people and control them (however simpleminded they are...) or have all the information of every element just presented to you without any research.

[crbd115]

4 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

Please don't bring sense and logic into a game and suck all the fun out of it... Especially in ONI's case. If we would apply logic to ONI, we shouldn't have a game in the first place. Because it is just illogical to print people and control them (however simpleminded they are...) or have all the information of every element just presented to you without any research.

If that's your argument then why have thermo dynamics or gravity in this game. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by crbd115

[sakura_sk]

1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

If that's your argument then why have thermo dynamics or gravity in this game.

Because you need enough realism to be able to understand what is happening (maybe it shouldn't be so realistic to the point that some people compare Physics with a game simulation but that is a development choice -I think-), and not enough realism in order for the game to be enjoyable. I don't find it "fun" if water snapped to steam the moment it was placed or transported to vacuum (because there is no "boiling" mechanic in game) or dupes refusing to go to space or... explode.

[crbd115]

8 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

Because you need enough realism to be able to understand what is happening (maybe it shouldn't be so realistic to the point that some people compare Physics with a game simulation but that is a development choice -I think-), and not enough realism in order for the game to be enjoyable. I don't find it "fun" if water snapped to steam the moment it was placed or transported to vacuum (because there is no "boiling" mechanic in game) or dupes refusing to go to space or... explode.

I'm not suggesting they explode maybe take a look at the suggestion area for what I suggested involving this mechanic. What do you mean there is no boiling mechanic does water not turn to steam if heated enough? I wasn't suggesting they explode because that's not what happens despite what some movies or tv would have you believe.

Edit: also water does disappear when exposed to space in the game, as long as their is no background tile

Edited March 28, 2021 by crbd115

[sakura_sk]

1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

What do you mean there is no boiling mechanic does water not turn to steam if heated enough?

I mean there is either water or steam, only one state per element. Boiling, turning from one state to the other when a certain boiling point is reached, isn't a concept in game because there is no "atmosphere pressure" concept. Boiling in game would mean constant flickering (if you ever saw water or oil dropping to lava) that consumes memory and frame rate. If water is instant "boiling" in vacuum that means you will have an explosion of steam if you transfer or drop water that touches vacuum. 

 

2 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Edit: also water does disappear when exposed to space in the game, as long as their is no background tile

Yes, because vacuum ≠ space. Vacuum can be created around a gas pump. Should water convert to steam if a dupe that transfers it passed in front of a gas pump?

 

1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

I'm not suggesting they explode maybe take a look at the suggestion area for what I suggested involving this mechanic.

 

1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

I wasn't suggesting they explode because that's not what happens despite what some movies or tv would have you believe.

Yes, I saw that suggestion and I don't think there is a "like" from me . I don't agree because it makes atmo suits mandatory but they never were (and I don't think they ever should be).

Also, explosion would be more fun  (brutal... but maybe enjoyable after a period of "getting used to it")

[marioespinho]

2 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I don't feel I need them or oxygen masks when I play the game, which is part of the problem in my opinion. I have been able to get around not using both for a long time, which creates a problem in the opposite extreme as well. Duplicants can literally just do most things for an extended period of time by just holding their breath. I have completed multiple full asteroids telescope areas and sent duplicants to other asteroids to colonize them without them. You can pretty much do anything without them if you know the basic strategies to circumvent why you would need them.
 Yes I fully agree they are overpowered even now and have said so many times and posted multiple suggestions on how to rebalance them. The reason why I believe we should have them on the first planet is because it makes absolutely no sense to be able to go out into the vacuum of space without them from a logic standpoint. You cannot hold your breath in a vacuum and any liquid exposed to a vacuum begins to boil.
 This is easy to rebalance. You can change the recipe to gate them such as adding glass or small amount of steel to the recipe. You can lower the oxygen supply they can store to force you to build them only in entrances to areas you need them. Space can have debuffs associated to it for being exposed to it similarly to how hazardous gases work now in the dlc. I have said all of these many times in suggestions and discussions.

Rebalancing atmo suits is a whole another topic, but i don't think the right way to do it is by changing a core mechanic of the game. Yes, you can do most things in the game by having dupes hold their breaths, but that would make them have to stop every now and then to breathe, losing time. It's a tradeoff that we can either accept or opt for oxygen masks/ atmo suits. Not everything has to be a reflection of how reality works.

Also, like i pointed out before, you do have a cluster, out of 2, where you can get atmo suits easily, so i don't see why that should be the case for every starting cluster. Different clusters, different challenges.

[The Plum Gate]

Dreckos are not as straight forward to ranch. They apparently need hydrogen to stimulate scale growth, but I can't find this information in the codex for some reason.

My experience with them has been a quick glimpse of reed fiber, but not to the extent it is easy or early game.

From a swampy start, I got a drecklet from the printing pod shortly after landing a rover on the nearest moonlet ( the metal ore planetoid ). Now I have a pile of them in a small ranch and am having trouble with scale growth - otherwise they are happy in their simulated original habitat.

 

[SharraShimada]

3 hours ago, The Plum Gate said:

Dreckos are not as straight forward to ranch. They apparently need hydrogen to stimulate scale growth, but I can't find this information in the codex for some reason.

Yes they need food with its specific environment. But scales only grow in hydrogen. So you have to figure out a way they can feed from plants, and idle in hydrogen. Its not that hard though. And for the codex: There is much missing.  Use https://oxygennotincluded.fandom.com/wiki/Drecko instead. 

[Steve8]

Dreckos are relatively easy once you figured out a stable design that's reliable. You can also hack together crude stables with some hydrogen on top and oxygen at the bottom in what's basically a regular room. They aren't super efficient because the time in hydrogen is reduced, but they work. Just get some hydrogen to float at the top by using an electrolyzer or a canister emptier.

Another thing that throws people off is that they eat directly from the plants. You can't just give them harvested fruit. Plastic dreckos are a lot easier with that as you can feed them mealwood or bristle berries. If you feed mealwood to regular dreckos they turn into plastic ones eventually. To consistently ranch them for reed fiber you either need to grow pincha pepper in an all hydrogen atmosphere, or balm lily with a layer of chlorine at the bottom. The latter doesn't take any resources.

This isn't as complicated as it sounds once you've done it a few times and have a design you are familiar with. It just takes a while to spin up the population. I've built a lot of drecko stables just for plastic and I've also done reed fiber stables with the same design - just different gasses

Edited March 29, 2021 by Steve8

[The Plum Gate]

I may have to look at the tool tips again. I thought they only ate balm lilly.

I have a decent ranch, but it was at first, a balm lilly room. They are so slow, I had to put a mask station outside the room so they could be groomed properly. 

I wonder if they can eat while they're hanging from the ceiling.

This past few hours I was playing with plastic manufacturing and everything that leads up to it, so I wasn't paying too much attention to the ranchers save for installing a mask station and removing some eggs.

These flowers, I have almost a thousand flowers clippings now, is there any use to them outside of medicine? They're practically indestructible! 

It would be nice if we could perhaps create flower arrangement for decor with them. Perhaps they eventually wilt and turn to a rot pile in this instance...I wouldn't want to press my luck, such a transformation may trigger rebalancing them into a resource consuming plant.

[CheeseGromit]

15 hours ago, marioespinho said:

Rebalancing atmo suits is a whole another topic, but i don't think the right way to do it is by changing a core mechanic of the game. Yes, you can do most things in the game by having dupes hold their breaths, but that would make them have to stop every now and then to breathe, losing time. It's a tradeoff that we can either accept or opt for oxygen masks/ atmo suits. Not everything has to be a reflection of how reality works.

Also, like i pointed out before, you do have a cluster, out of 2, where you can get atmo suits easily, so i don't see why that should be the case for every starting cluster. Different clusters, different challenges.

As a minor note to this. I used oxygen masks to build my rocket and supporting structures on the surface. They worked well for oxygen supply where there was none but came with minor time loss and stress factors e.g. soggy feet and sore eyes?? from ?hydrogen and/or natural gas environment.

In theory I like the idea of different clusters, different challenges. In practice, as mentioned, I got frustrated when presented will a 100°C oil biome and no atmo suits. I spent a fair amount of time manually managing dupe vitality trying to make something work before attempting the fly to third planet looking for reed fiber option. I guess I would have been happier moving to the third planet in my own time rather than solely in search of reed fiber. Perhaps this is where I need to adjust and learn. Is there another solution here that I missed?

[babba]

10 minutes ago, CheeseGromit said:

As a minor note to this. I used oxygen masks to build my rocket and supporting structures on the surface. They worked well for oxygen supply where there was none but came with minor time loss and stress factors e.g. soggy feet and sore eyes?? from ?hydrogen and/or natural gas environment.

In theory I like the idea of different clusters, different challenges. In practice, as mentioned, I got frustrated when presented will a 100°C oil biome and no atmo suits. I spent a fair amount of time manually managing dupe vitality trying to make something work before attempting the fly to third planet looking for reed fiber option. I guess I would have been happier moving to the third planet in my own time rather than solely in search of reed fiber. Perhaps this is where I need to adjust and learn. Is there another solution here that I missed?

I use my borehole-fluid-method. It works if there is oxygen somewhere up to 50 tiles above, the dupes are athlete runners, keeping the drill fluid below 65 Celsius and the dupes fully covered in fluid + building metal poles to ascend fast...Then I drill up to 1000 Celsius hot tiles without suits.

Edited March 29, 2021 by babba

[marioespinho]

8 hours ago, CheeseGromit said:

As a minor note to this. I used oxygen masks to build my rocket and supporting structures on the surface. They worked well for oxygen supply where there was none but came with minor time loss and stress factors e.g. soggy feet and sore eyes?? from ?hydrogen and/or natural gas environment.

In theory I like the idea of different clusters, different challenges. In practice, as mentioned, I got frustrated when presented will a 100°C oil biome and no atmo suits. I spent a fair amount of time manually managing dupe vitality trying to make something work before attempting the fly to third planet looking for reed fiber option. I guess I would have been happier moving to the third planet in my own time rather than solely in search of reed fiber. Perhaps this is where I need to adjust and learn. Is there another solution here that I missed?

Yea, i use oxygen masks for early space construction/clearing, and those issues are tradeoffs that we need to accept in order to balance how easy it is to build and maintain them.

As for the second question, if you start in swamp, to get into oil you need to either fly to the third asteroid to get fiber ( easy option ) or try and search for a cooler oil spot, something like 60c, or try to cool that section down by letting fluids drop down and absorb some of the heat ( harder option ).

[JRup]

9 hours ago, The Plum Gate said:

These flowers, I have almost a thousand flowers clippings now, is there any use to them outside of medicine? They're practically indestructible! 

Besides being an ingredient for medicine the compost is your friend for this task... I'll recommend sedimentary rock as building material.