New Twitch Drops Coming Soon.

[Misuto]

7 hours ago, JoeW said:

With the new Twitch drop system, we can't ban or otherwise block bad behavior. The majority of bad behavior in the past was AFK streaming, and that must be dealt with otherwise things get real messy real fast. With the new Twitch drops API, there is no concept of blocking or unlinking accounts for Streamers, ONLY whitelisting.  If the Twitch API had not changed, likely I would have just added some new rules (follow twitch rules, please do not game the system) and that would be that.

Thank you for explaining the situation more clearly. This does a much better job of explaining why you need to be more picky in who is whitelisted for drops as it's a permanent choice that can't be undone. I'd say this is such a critical piece of information that you may want to consider editing this into your first comment. (Let me know if I'm misinterpreting this paragraph though.)

 

That said though, my primary question after this response is how does Klei expect to have both a protected and inclusive system of drops going forward without the ability to un-whitelist or blacklist/ban ne'er-do-wells? You've stated that whitelisting cannot be undone with the new system and I'd say that's the biggest problem of the past (twitch not actually moderating the system on their end to block people breaking ToS) and it will remain the primary problem going forward.

 

Consider, the rise of the 24/7 ad spamming drop abusing streamer didn't happen overnight or randomly out of luck; a demand for the service they provided existed (and still exists). As I mentioned previously, there are many people who do not use twitch and have no interest in it, they simply AFK for their drops. For those people, a stream that is both always on and has drops enabled is the best way to ensure that they get their free skin without having to actually watch a stream. The market's demand was there and is still there now for the type of service those rule-breakers provided. So, you've stated that going forward the only system to prevent someone from trying to fill the profitable space that will now be left vacant is that Klei does not whitelist the wrong person. How will Klei predict that a streamer who is legitimately streaming now will not change course to fill this demand after getting approved for drops? It doesn't even take one bad apple slipping through the cracks for us to end up in exactly the same situation we were in before, it just takes 1 person being tempted by easy money.

 

8 hours ago, JoeW said:

I have every intention of being inclusive rather than exclusive.

Because of the above stated problems, there is no way to make the program inclusive and also safeguard against the rise of the previous problems we faced (drop abusers). 

 

8 hours ago, JoeW said:

Second - I am also well aware of the perceptions and concerns of favoritism or feeling left out. I have every intention to include those that represent our community well and are nice, friendly and welcoming to other players. No different than these forums, you need to be polite and behave properly. But frankly, I have never seen that as a problem with our Twitch community.  

 

Does Klei have any plan in place to preempt these concerns though? Some streamers are known to have personal insider connections to Klei for instance - how do we as a community know that they and their acquaintances won't get preferential treatment? With no transparency in the choices being made or why they were made what safeguard do we the community have against a cronyistic system arising where people aren't added for the merits and contributions and positive influences but instead being added because they know the right people? 

 

8 hours ago, JoeW said:

All that being said, something that I left out of the announcement that I should have put in there is that we will continue the practice of putting Twitch items on the rewards page. So, those that do not want to watch Twitch streams to get items, can simply wait a little while and get them later. But they will still need to keep an eye on our community to get the points to do so. 

This is great to hear and perhaps should also be edited in to your first post. As a suggestion, it'd also be great if you utilized the other platforms you have to share points with (for example twitter or facebook). You give people a 1 time bonus for following, but it'd be nice to incentivize people to be active there too. They don't always have to be huge multi-thousand points, just quick expiring (like 3-7days for 200-500 points or so). This would really reward people who are invested in the community and actively following it everywhere and not just the forums and twitch. 

 

I hope none of that came across as hostile or rude, but just as genuinely concerned. Personally, despite having my entire career (a full time streamer) made by the existence of drops in DST, if I had been given the choice you were, I'd have gone with no drops until Twitch could provide a way for Klei directly to blacklist or ban streamers who are negatively impacting the DS/T community without having to jump through hoops and hope that Twitch actually does something and enforces its own ToS. If Klei had the ability to ban people who were abusing the drop system (from the drop system, not entirely from twitch) then you could have designed your side of the system to automatically whitelist anyone who applies and simply blacklist rulebreakers. That would actually create an inclusive system and fix the issue with rule-breakers.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I am not saying there is anything wrong with viewers AFKing on twitch, I feel like some points are getting mixed up in this thread. I am simply stating that because said people exist, there exists a demand that gives way to the rise of AFK streamers which was the issue before. 

[Griver84]

1 hour ago, Misuto said:

That said though, my primary question after this response is how does Klei expect to have both a protected and inclusive system of drops going forward without the ability to un-whitelist or blacklist/ban ne'er-do-wells? You've stated that whitelisting cannot be undone with the new system and I'd say that's the biggest problem of the past (twitch not actually moderating the system on their end to block people breaking ToS) and it will remain the primary problem going forward.

I think there might be a misunderstanding about how whitelisting works here and I'm sure Joe can correct me if I'm wrong. Just because the system doesn't allow for blocking and/or black listing someone from using it doesn't mean they can't be removed from the whitelist. Its not like once you'll be eternally on the whitelist once added. Those lists in my experience can be editing/deleted/cleaned out at any random point. Assuming the Twitch system works the same it would just be on the team to edit the list when they needed to. Hence the new approval process.

[GLERMZ]

5 hours ago, Misuto said:

Because of the above stated problems, there is no way to make the program inclusive and also safeguard against the rise of the previous problems we faced (drop abusers).

There is, let's say someone who will have drops starts abusing the system, they can get removed from the program. Creating a whitelist allows you to remove any bad apples. Thats how it works because in other communities some people got removed from having drops and being their partners. Now if it would be the system that everyone would have it there would be no way to prevent an abuser unless twitch would do it themselfs.

[Misuto]

18 minutes ago, GLERMZ said:

There is, let's say someone who will have drops starts abusing the system, they can get removed from the program.

This is literally the opposite of what JoeW officially said though. 

 

6 hours ago, Misuto said:

With the new Twitch drop system, we can't ban or otherwise block bad behavior. The majority of bad behavior in the past was AFK streaming, and that must be dealt with otherwise things get real messy real fast. With the new Twitch drops API, there is no concept of blocking or unlinking accounts for Streamers, ONLY whitelisting.  If the Twitch API had not changed, likely I would have just added some new rules (follow twitch rules, please do not game the system) and that would be that.

To emphasis: "With the new twitch drop system we CAN'T ban or otherwise block bad behavior....With the new system there is NO concept of blocking or unlinking accounts for streamers ONLY whitelisting." 

 

It's possible that JoeW catastrophically misspoke to the point that he accidentally typed the exact opposite of what he meant, but I'd like to hear from the actual source. 

 

If Klei can actually edit the whitelist (which is again, the exact opposite of what JoeW typed), then that would be really good. It means Klei would have a lot of power but could still create a transparent and fair system on their end:

 

They could create a quick script which automatically adds anyone who "applies" to the whitelist. They could then manually update their own blacklist for their script which prevents people who have abused the system from being auto added to the whitelist again. This way it's a fully transparent system that allows Klei to remove drop abusers. It wouldn't matter if twitch has a blacklist feature or not as it would be their own script that has it and prevents abusers from automatically getting back in. This system would also allow for an innocent until proven guilty methodology and would fix all the concerns with smaller streamers being left out as well as the fear of favoritism that some may have. 

 

However, because that is the exact opposite of what JoeW typed and how easy a solution this would be that would fix literally every concern mentioned by everyone in this thread, I am inclined to trust the Klei staff who stated that they cannot remove from said whitelist. 

[GLERMZ]

Just now, Misuto said:

This is literally the opposite of what JoeW officially said though.

To emphasis: "With the new twitch drop system we CAN'T ban or otherwise block bad behavior....With the new system there is NO concept of blocking or unlinking accounts for streamers ONLY whitelisting." 

Pretty sure what was ment is the old system in this new twitch API wouldn't allow you to ban/block people and thats why we are having this system. It's the only one that allows you to withdraw someone in Twitch Drops 2.0 API.

[Misuto]

Just now, GLERMZ said:

Pretty sure what was ment is the old system in this new twitch API wouldn't allow you to ban/block people and thats why we are having this system. It's the only one that allows you to withdraw someone in Twitch Drops 2.0 API.

I'd still like to hear from an actual Klei employee rather than your guess.

[GLERMZ]

30 minutes ago, Misuto said:

I'd still like to hear from an actual Klei employee rather than your guess.

I would love that too, merely stating my point of view in what was written in this thread. I just drew different conclusions on it.

[Misuto]

Just now, GLERMZ said:

I would love that too, merely stating my point of view in what was written in this thread. I just draw different conclusions on it.

Even if the first line was a typo and was referring to the old system. He goes on to state:

 

"With the new Twitch drops API, there is no concept of blocking or unlinking accounts for Streamers, ONLY whitelisting."

 

He would have to have mistyped the most critically important part of that statement twice in a row for that interpretation to make sense. 

 

He directly states that there is no concept of blocking or unlinking in the new system. Both of these terms would be synonymous in meaning to the concept of removing someone from the whitelist. 

 

If Klei is able to un-whitelist people there should be no problem with just accepting literally everyone who "applies". Joe even stated that the problems from the twitch community were extremely rare anyways. Being able to remove people from the whitelist (unlinking/blocking them from distributing drops) would let Klei create their own self maintained blacklist to stop drop abusers. With this being such an obvious and simple solution, it just wouldn't make sense for that to be the case. I don't think Joe double typo'd, but if he did, I'd be more interested in to hear why they wouldn't adopt an auto accept all approach especially when it sounds like they need to push a new whitelist for each drop campaign based on this quote he said earlier:

 

"However, I still have to deal with the challenge of manually adding participants for each campaign, and I really don't know how that's going to work out in the long term. "

 

It'd be easy to make a script that just remembers the accounts of people who have applied and also maintain a personal blacklist of people Klei won't reapply. Anyways, money where my mouth is, Klei, feel free to contact me if you think setting up your own program for this is something that you don't have the resources for, while I'm a full time streamer now, I was a programmer with a specialty in securities two jobs ago. 

 

 

 

 

[GLERMZ]

11 minutes ago, Misuto said:

Even if the first line was a typo and was referring to the old system. He goes on to state:

 

"With the new Twitch drops API, there is no concept of blocking or unlinking accounts for Streamers, ONLY whitelisting."

 

He would have to have mistyped the most critically important part of that statement twice in a row for that interpretation to make sense. 

 

He directly states that there is no concept of blocking or unlinking in the new system. Both of these terms would be synonymous in meaning to the concept of removing someone from the whitelist. 


Sorry for the edits. Was just trying to clear some typos.

 

If Klei is able to un-whitelist people there should be no problem with just accepting literally everyone who "applies". Joe even stated that the problems from the twitch community were extremely rare anyways. Being able to remove people from the whitelist (unlinking/blocking them from distributing drops) would let Klei create their own self maintained blacklist to stop drop abusers. With this being such an obvious and simple solution, it just wouldn't make sense for that to be the case. I don't think Joe double typo'd, but if he did, I'd be more interested in to hear why they wouldn't adopt an auto accept all approach especially when it sounds like they need to push a new whitelist for each drop campaign based on this quote he said earlier:

 

"However, I still have to deal with the challenge of manually adding participants for each campaign, and I really don't know how that's going to work out in the long term. "

 

It'd be easy to make a script that just remembers the accounts of people who have applied and also maintain a personal blacklist of people Klei won't reapply. Anyways, money where my mouth is, Klei, feel free to contact me if you think setting up your own program for this is something that you don't have the resources for, while I'm a full time streamer now, I was a programmer with a specialty in securities two jobs ago. 

 

 

 

 

But this is where i draw a different conclusion. Every system that works in a base of whitelisting gives you the ability to both add and remove so why would Twitch one be different? JoeW also mentioned a rotation basis, so how would that be possible if they would not be able to remove people while adding others? Also like i mentioned above i saw Sea of Thieves partners being dropped from drops for breaking rules, and Sea of Thieves have been using the twitch 2.0 system for 6 months now so i doubt that changed, and they do use the whitelist system.
To be clear they were removed during an ongoing campaign.

Again, and this is my view on things is that the way we had drops before, in this new system, doesn't allow you block someone. Keep in mind that the system didn't needed action from Klei to add people by "hand", it was automatic.

Still, as you stated i would love Klei to be able to clarify this subject because this is only my rudimentary knowledge of twitch API and drops of talking to other streamers and communities.

[TemporarySolutn]

17 hours ago, ladylz said:

As for the afk, view botting, ad spamming streamer it absolutely 100% hurts not only other streamers in the community but members of the community as well and anyone who says otherwise is lacking awareness or doesn't care. I don't know how anyone could be okay with spamming max ads on the lowest cooldown it's disgusting.

I afk, I get skin

He max ads, he get money

its not like its horribly painful for me to have to watch ad after ad while I have it muted with 120p in the background, he took advantage of the fact that most people just tune in for skins which is very smart and I feel bad that he cant continue to do that

[JazzyGames]

21 minutes ago, TemporarySolutn said:

I afk, I get skin

He max ads, he get money

its not like its horribly painful for me to have to watch ad after ad while I have it muted with 120p in the background, he took advantage of the fact that most people just tune in for skins which is very smart and I feel bad that he cant continue to do that

Well that was depressing to read. Just because you have zero interest in the Twitch community doesn't mean you need to endorse the abuse of it for profit.

Misuto, when Joe said "unlink" he was referencing the old system where you could unlink certain streamers. In the new API you cant just enable drops for everyone except those you want to blacklist. You have to whitelist. I find the notion that Klei won't be able to remove whitelisted channels next to impossible.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, JazzyGames said:

Well that was depressing to read. Just because you have zero interest in the Twitch community doesn't mean you need to endorse the abuse of it for profit.

He just bait in every topic, dont feed the sad troll

[TemporarySolutn]

13 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Well that was depressing to read. Just because you have zero interest in the Twitch community doesn't mean you need to endorse the abuse of it for profit.

everyone says "abuse" like he's hurting people, anyone who watched his continuous stream watched it to grind for skins sorry I'm not gonna seriously sit somewhere for 8 ******* hours to get a fish skin for a lightning rod

tell me what he did wrong without bringing up any of the "rules"

[JazzyGames]

9 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

He just bait in every topic, dont feed the sad troll

Fair enough.

[TemporarySolutn]

13 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

He just bait in every topic, dont feed the sad troll

 Except that its not bait and I'm 100% serious

[Griver84]

25 minutes ago, TemporarySolutn said:

 Except that its not bait and I'm 100% serious

You assert that he's doing no harm, yet shift the burden of proof that he's doing no harm onto others. This is a fallacy and not how this type of discussion works. Trust me when there are many of us saying there was harm done. 

If you want to assert that he's done no harm its on you to prove that. Not on others to disprove you. 

[TemporarySolutn]

1 minute ago, Griver84 said:

Trust me when there are many of us saying there was harm done. 

How am I supposed to believe this when you dance around me asking what he did to harm anyone

[MondayNight]

33 minutes ago, TemporarySolutn said:

How am I supposed to believe this when you dance around me asking what he did to harm anyone

That AFK Streamer subtracted potential viewers from actual game-content streamers. Now that he won't be around, a big chunk of afk viewers will afk in mentioned active/actually-playing-the-game streams. How big of a number is up to debate, as time-tables differ and I reckon most afk viewers were going for that Russian's afk stream precisely because of different time zones not overlapping at "sensible" (mid-day/evening) hours. From what I get, majority of streamers out there are USA-based, followed by Asian ones. That means EU and Middle East don't have choices for a mid-day comfortable time-table.

[TemporarySolutn]

T

3 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

subtracted potential viewers

this is not harm

[MondayNight]

Just now, TemporarySolutn said:

T

this is not harm

It's from potential revenue view-point. They run ads on those streams, number of viewers matter for that, obviously.

[TemporarySolutn]

1 minute ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

It's from potential revenue view-point. They run ads on those streams, number of viewers matter for that, obviously.

if i stream myself and im "subtracting protentional viewers" is that also harm? thats is the stupidest reasoning i could have imagined someone would make up lmfao

[ladylz]

If you can’t “find” a streamer that is on when it’s convenient for you to watch and get drops then chances are you aren’t looking hard enough. Just because the streamers you follow aren’t on doesn’t mean there aren’t others out there. Joe even mentioned having all time of day covered. You have two weeks for 6 hours of watch time come on now. 

[TemporarySolutn]

6 minutes ago, ladylz said:

You have two weeks for 6 hours of watch time come on now. 

some people wait until last minute

[ladylz]

12 minutes ago, TemporarySolutn said:

some people wait until last minute

Procrastination is a user problem. Not a Klei or streamer problem. Should probably plan better yeah. 
 

But again there are streamers on at all times of day. You might have to go outside of who you follow but they are there. You’re just not looking. 

[TemporarySolutn]

2 minutes ago, ladylz said:

a user problem

 

23 minutes ago, ladylz said:

. You have two weeks for 6 hours of watch time come on now.

some people dont have two weeks for 6 hours of watch time on the first week, im just trying to explain to you why your logic is flawed, come on now