Combined power from a battery and a transformer

[beeper]

I am just starting to get the hang of sandbox mode and hopefully in the future I won't have to ask stupid/easy questions. In the following setup, will the AT run continuously or will it only run ~83% of the time (1 kW/1.2 kW)?

If it will run continuously, how much continuous power draw can I get from a setup like that (assuming enough power on the front end)?

[UnderwearApp]

Put the two transformers beside eachother and run the big wire from the petro gen through both of their large inputs. Then run a regular conductive wire through both of their outputs to the battery and the AT. Gives you 2 kW on the battery line which is what the petro gen produces.

 

[JRup]

59 minutes ago, beeper said:

will the AT run continuously

The AT will attempt to run continuously because it's not being switched on/off by automation. What one usually must do is build a liquid thermo sensor on the pipe right next to the AT's input. This way you can set a target temperature within the range the liquid you're cooling permits. If you happen to go lower than that then you'll have to deal with pipe damage.

For more info:

Spoiler

You might like to look into the setups in this other thread. It also covers AT bypassing.

The 1k power wire will suffer damage from this kind of setup on account of some buggyness when it comes putting batteries on the right side of transformers. I'll only mention that there are builds that accomplish using 1k wire as your power delivery option instead of the big decor killer wires.

Spoiler

Search battery flippers, for example.

I won't get into much detail as it will inevitably result in a wall of text, which you'll get used to in due time.

[Pyrex042]

What is your goal with this setup?  As shown, it won't work properly as the AT will try to turn on, then immediately run out of power and stop.

If you want it to run full-time, you need to do like @UnderwearApp said and feed the AT from two transformers.

If you're trying to limit the uptime of the AT to reduce power consumption, you need to use some automation to turn the AT on/off.  You can either automate it from the Smart Battery, or if you want to control when it runs (only run it during the part of the day where your Solar is at peak output) you can use a Cycle Sensor (for this example, set the Activation Time to 17%, and the Activation Duration to 50% to only run when Solar is at-peak).

[beeper]

1 hour ago, Pyrex042 said:

What is your goal with this setup?  As shown, it won't work properly as the AT will try to turn on, then immediately run out of power and stop.

A fully charged smart battery should be able to run the AT for 16.6 seconds since the AT draws 1.2 kJ/sec and the SB holds 20 kJ of charge. My thinking was that the transformer should be able to supplement the SB and let the AT run for 100 seconds before the SB runs out since over 100 seconds the AT requires 120 kJ, the transformer would supply 100 kJ and the SB would provide the last 20 kJ. The issue is I do not know how power priority works during a "brownout". I also read someplace that the transformer can actually supply 1 kJ per tick so you could put a 1 kW load on the transformer and still charge a battery.  This might mean the AT could run even longer.

[Pyrex042]

Without automation to keep the AT in the 'off' state, the SB will never charge.

The easiest solution is to connect the SB automation output to a Not gate then connect the Not to the AT.  That way, when the SB runs dry, it will shut off the AT until the SB charges again.

[nakomaru]

On 3/12/2021 at 7:19 AM, beeper said:

I also read someplace that the transformer can actually supply 1 kJ per tick so you could put a 1 kW load on the transformer and still charge a battery

On 3/12/2021 at 5:07 AM, JRup said:

The 1k power wire will suffer damage from this kind of setup on account of some buggyness when it comes putting batteries on the right side of transformers.

This was a bug, where transformers hooked up in series could charge batteries at 5x their rated power. It was fixed maybe two years ago.

On 3/12/2021 at 7:19 AM, beeper said:

the transformer should be able to supplement the SB and let the AT run for 100 seconds before the SB runs out since over 100 seconds the AT requires 120 kJ, the transformer would supply 100 kJ and the SB would provide the last 20 kJ

Yes, you understand it correctly. I usually do my first aquatuner in a similar way using manual generators. You need to use automation like @Pyrex042 says in order to turn off the aquatuner while the battery is charging again.

[Soulwind]

What I don't get is why 2 transformers?  If you're using conductive wire anyway, what's the point of multiple transformers?

[gabberworld]

14 minutes ago, Soulwind said:

What I don't get is why 2 transformers?  If you're using conductive wire anyway, what's the point of multiple transformers?

yeah, i think the same thing, transformers is needed if you want lower wattage , but not needed in this case at all

[nakomaru]

I believe the OP intends to use the 1kW wire to deliver 1kW over a long distance with little cost. The second transformer is needed to make a small, local 20kW circuit (2kW in my example) which can handle intermittent 1200W load from the aquatuner.

It's basically like a straightforward, worse version of a transformer+switching battery pair.

[beeper]

4 hours ago, nakomaru said:

I believe the OP intends to use the 1kW wire to deliver 1kW over a long distance with little cost. The second transformer is needed to make a small, local 20kW circuit (2kW in my example) which can handle intermittent 1200W load from the aquatuner.

It's basically like a straightforward, worse version of a transformer+switching battery pair.

Exactly. And I totally agree that it is a worse version of the switching battery, but it seemed more straightforward to me.

[Soulwind]

15 hours ago, nakomaru said:

I believe the OP intends to use the 1kW wire to deliver 1kW over a long distance with little cost. The second transformer is needed to make a small, local 20kW circuit (2kW in my example) which can handle intermittent 1200W load from the aquatuner.

It's basically like a straightforward, worse version of a transformer+switching battery pair.

OK, I get it.  There's supposed to be a big distance between the 2 transformers.  First transformer limits to 1000 W, run a normal wire the length, then 2nd transformer acts just as a circuit isolator to separate the battery and AT from the normal wire, so conductive is just needed for that few spaces.

That makes more sense.  Thanks.

[Argelle]

On 3/12/2021 at 8:35 AM, nakomaru said:

Yes, you understand it correctly. I usually do my first aquatuner in a similar way using manual generators. You need to use automation like @Pyrex042 says in order to turn off the aquatuner while the battery is charging again.

Something's conter intuitive here...

My first guess would have been that 1200 W is drawn from the smart battery to  the aquatuner and the normal wire is only there to recharge the battery while AT is off. At a max 1000 W. But then the arrow on the transformer indicate that the current does not pass this way !

So it's not a setting I would come up with from scratch.

power ====conductive===== transfo >>>>>> -----------------normal---------------- <<<<<<< transfo ============= AT === SB

 

 

 

[nakomaru]

6 hours ago, Argelle said:

My first guess would have been that 1200 W is drawn from the smart battery to  the aquatuner and the normal wire is only there to recharge the battery while AT is off. At a max 1000 W. But then the arrow on the transformer indicate that the current does not pass this way !

I'm not sure what you thought worked in a different way, but here are some rules that I hope can clarify things:

• The capacity of the lowest capacity wire tile will be use for all connected wire tiles.
• Charging a battery with a generator causes 0 wattage of load on the line.
• Charging a battery with a transformer causes 0 wattage of load on the battery side of the line.
• Charging a battery with a transformer causes whatever wattage of load the transformer consumes to the input side of the transformer.

With these rules in mind:

• The left conductive wire in the schematic can be normal wire. It's shown as conductive to represent a larger backbone / series of of transformers.
• The middle wire will only ever see 1kW load max.
• The right wire will only ever see 1.2kW or 0W load, but nothing in between. (ignoring averaging when cycling)
  • When the right wire is charging the battery while the aquatuner is off, it will see 0W running through it.
  • Therefore all wire tiles in the right line must be at least 2kW capacity.

[Argelle]

So during the charge of the battery, there is o W load, and because of this the transformer is not considered ?

The arrows on the transformer are here to indicate the way the current flows, but... 0 W 0 current it's ok to go against the way of the arrows ?

What bugs me is the

-----------------normal---------------- <<<<<<< transfo ============

part...

 

 

 

 

 

 

may be i'm misread the picture ?

I would have go for :

Power ====conductive===== transfo >>>>>> -----------------normal---------------- transfo >>>>>> ============= AT === SB

Or, to take into account your remarks:

Quote

The left conductive wire in the schematic can be normal wire. It's shown as conductive to represent a larger backbone / series of of transformers.

Power --------------normal------------- transfo >>>>>> -------------normal------------- transfo >>>>>> ======= AT === SB

or plain and simple :

Power -----------------normal---------------- transfo >>>>>> ========= AT === SB ?

 

 

 

[sakura_sk]

19 minutes ago, Argelle said:

Power -----------------normal---------------- transfo >>>>>> ========= AT === SB

@Argelle I think this last schematic would fry your normal wire (maybe I'm wrong...) if you put any batteries on it.

The other reason there is a need for a second transformer is because it acts as a limiter (1000w) for the normal wire. 

 

or... you misread the picture..? The flow in the picture works like this

25 minutes ago, Argelle said:

Power ====conductive===== transfo >>>>>> -----------------normal---------------- transfo >>>>>> ============= AT === SB

 

[nakomaru]

@Argelle Yes, I think you misread the picture. It is set up in the way you would have made it. The power can only go from left to right on this transformer.

[KittenIsAGeek]

I've used a similar method for transferring large amounts of power to areas of my base that needed it.  Normally I use a large transformer (or two!) that is capable of transferring 4kw down a line to a battery.  Once the battery is full, automation connects it to a transformer that sends the power to where it is needed.  Here are some examples:

Power from slugs into the grid:

Spoiler

My slugs produce 2kw of power right now, but only during the night. For a short time, when the babies have matured but the adults haven't passed on yet, the slugs will produce over 3kw of power.  Clearly conductive wire won't cut it, and I don't want to run heavi-watt through my base.  Ignore the automation -- it isn't necessary and its an experiment I'm tryin g.

 

Hamster wheel power!

Spoiler

Rather than making my dupes run half-way across the base, I put a base station near my power grid that takes high wattage from the hamster wheels and stores it in a battery.  These batteries are a back-up system for when the rest of the grid is lagging, hence the switch in the upper left corner.

This isn't the neatest build, but it does the trick.  Basically there is always one battery connected to the wheels, and one battery connected to the grid.  The smart battery is set at 0% to 95% -- otherwise the dupes will fall off the wheels before the system shifts.  With the smart battery set this way, then if the regular battery also needs charging, the dupes will simply continue to run until its full.  This reduces downtime considerably.  When I had the smart battery set at 0% to 100%, then the dupes would fall off the wheel, start another task, and by time the dupes returned to the wheels, the smart battery would be empty and reconnected to the wheels.  Remember: That large transformer can dump 4kw onto the grid if necessary, so that battery can drain fast!  Here's the hamster room at the moment.

 

Clearly I need to discover reeds and get glass windows researched, but.. hey, its a work in progress.

High power to local grid:

Spoiler

Its a bit of a mess.  I need to go through and organize cables, but... you can see how it works.  I picked this particular design up from the forums long enough ago that I don't remember who to attribute.  I've used a variety of designs, so there are many many ways to do this.

 

 

For smaller grids that run rarely or use little power, I use this configuration: 

 

Power comes in from the left and goes out to power devices on the right.  Because I'm pushing at least 4kw down the line, the smart battery will recharge before the transformer will discharge, so there's no brownouts or anything.  

** EDIT CORRECTION: This design WILL cause momentary power failures, but they'll be very short.  Instead of switching off the transformer, put a switch on the right side of the battery between the battery and the transformer.  That will disconnect the drain from the source and the remaining charge in the transformer will hold your appliances over during the battery recharge.

Some notes if you're going to use a switched network:

1) A battery doesn't count as a consumer for the purposes of power calculation on the line, so you can recharge a battery using 20kw of power on a small wire.

2) Transformer inputs (high side) DO count as consumers, so the wire connected to the high side must be able to support the potential output on the low side.  For example, if you have a large transformer and you're using the full 4kw on the low side to charge a battery, then you must use heavi-watt wire on the high side or you'll burn out the wires.

3) A battery connected to a battery will not transfer power.  It needs a "push."   So your design needs to be battery --> transformer --> battery in order to recharge the battery at the end of the line.

4) You can do straight switched networks without transformers, but I've found that using transformers helps me control how much power gets used per grid. Its very easy, for example, to put 3kw of consumers on a single regular wire and suffer burnouts that are hard to track down.

 

Anyway, hope this was useful.  

[Argelle]

Still trouble in power land :)

Network as follow :

Solar panel -- jumbo battery -->--small transformer -->-- radiobolt (480 W) -- (battery) --<--small transformer ==(*)==<== ²H generator

I would expect the jumbo battery to fill up, but it remains at zero..

Is it because the consumer (480 W) always exceed the left generator (solar, at best 380W) ?

So the sources of power (solar and ²H genrator) are not equaly split ?

Should I have to the left (solar) the same shinagan as to the right ?

(*) is not shown but it's the classical:

---- smart battery --- --<--small transformer -------<---- smart battery ---- ²H generator  (+ automation not shown)

so to fill the jumbo battery, one would need to replace it with a smart one ?

Solar panel --- jumbo smart battery --->--small transformer -->----- smart battery ----- (+ automation)

Raison I ask is that the very good Nilaus does not seem to have problem with the simple set up solar - jumbo - transfo : (@9:48)

 

[nakomaru]

36 minutes ago, Argelle said:

Is it because the consumer (480 W) always exceed the left generator (solar, at best 380W) ?

Yep. You are using more power than you are generating, so of course the battery has nothing to do.

36 minutes ago, Argelle said:

So the sources of power (solar and ²H genrator) are not equaly split ?

This is complicated.

Spoiler

At low power levels they are both going to contribute as much as they can. When you are producing more than you are consuming, and feeding a main line with multiple transformers, the oldest transformers deliver their power first. So build your solar transformers first, then your fueled transformers after.

If a transformer output is on the same line as a generator, the generator always takes priority as an energy source.

Note that power is delivered 5 times per second, so unless you can completely fill all consumers+batteries in 1/5th of a second with only your highest priority sources, your lower priority sources (newest transformers) will still contribute.

 

36 minutes ago, Argelle said:

so to fill the jumbo battery, one would need to replace it with a smart one ?

No, this won't matter. You need to build more solar panels if you want to fill that battery.

[Argelle]

So that was that simple !!! stupid me

very much appréciated your answer, @nakomaru I did not know this:

4 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

... the oldest transformers deliver their power first. So build your solar transformers first, then your fueled transformers after.