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Make Wes More Useful


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Honestly when you stripe it to the bare bones TL:DR Wes is character slot, a character slot that is currently being Wasted by being intentionally bad.

And in my opinion Wes’s character as it stands right NOW could just as easily be a toggle option for playing as any character: But with Wes stats and no cons or perks, something that the Host of a world should have full control over rather it’s allowed or not. (And players playing in this way will be clearly marked in the pause menu with a little Skull & Crossbones symbol by their player choice indicating they can’t USE any powers.)

Which opens Wes the character up to get some truly unique gameplay features, preferably things that lend towards his compendium description: Has trouble staying alive, practices Balloon-o-Mancy, What the Heck even IS Balloon-o-Mancy?

Because you have to look at things from several perspectives: What the majority of Players want, What KLEI Wants us to know Wes as, What people who already Main him want and most importantly of ALL- What’s going to drive more skin sales for him and turn Klei a profit.

Because let’s just be honest, they would just leave Wes as he is without doing an actual rework if they weren’t planning to upgrade him to be an actual viable character choice.

Now the problem: Anything and I do mean ANYTHING they add to Wes will eventually be seen as a Perk rather than a Con..

For example: Draws Aggro of all Mobs and they target Wes above everyone else... Okay Mister Wes- You now have a tool to Kite enemy Mobs EXACTLY Where you want them..

kite em to Abigail to apply damage buff, kite em to a treeguard, kite then into a fence full of tooth traps and cage them inside- My point: Even if it’s challenging at first, people will eventually be using it to their advantage.

What if he got something like a very weak balloon raft that bursts at the slightest damage? Again.. useful as an early game perk to help someone like Wurt gather Kelp for her own Kit.

Things that are supposed to add to that “has trouble staying alive” will eventually be seen as something New that can and WILL be used to Wes’s advantage.

Theres only one legitimate compromise I can conceivably come to a decisive decision of what should be done: 

Offer up a mode/Character toggle that lets you play as anyone same as Wes plays Currently.

While also reimagining Wes himself with new perks that may be challenging at first.. but will eventually be used to Wes’s own Advantage.

People aren’t going to see “Has every hound in entire server chasing him” as a downside- Especially the SKILLED players who know how to abuse such a incredibly useful feature to their own advantage.

However: Making Wes even WORSE to play as for beginner players may not exactly be the best way to handle his refresh, because that’s just going to monopolize his potential skin sales.

Now to clarify: I’m not saying make Wes mind Numbingly easy mode to play, But maybe give him some fun things to do that make players want to stick with and learn to use those downsides to their advantage.

Wes is supposed to Have trouble staying alive.. yet he has twice as much health as Maxwell.

Maxwell pretty much gets one shot killed by Tallbird without proper armors or kiting skills.

Ultimately Klei will decide what they want Wes to represent: If they want to make him easier to play as and more Mime with Balloons I’m okay with that, if they want to make him harder to play as suffer often but give him things like “all mobs target Wes” it may not be the best choice if your trying to pull more players into playing him and buying skins for him but I as a fairly skilled player above that casual knowledge am equally okay with that because I’ll know how to manage and abuse its power to my own advantages.., but what I am NOT OKAY With is him staying exactly like he is now.. it has to change- for better or worse.

Its for the greater good. :wilson_love:

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1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

We are withholding Wes captive from the general public. I am willing to bet that those who do main wes would be quickly outnumbered by more casual fans should klei decide to buff him. Look at Wendy and how many new fans she gained after her rework. You might think that selfish to cater to the many at the expense of the few but from kleis perspective it may make sense. We have seen them do this multiple time too.

That is klei choice, if making a casual game for money or a good deep game

Some people want to make money with art and other want to make money with crap

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1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

Cant argue with what you want from the game as it is your opinion.

Not sure where I gave off the vibe I want things handed to me... I dont. Im actually a sucker for pain and enjoy games like darkest dungeon, The binding of Isaac, Master mode Terraria, etc. The initial difficulty is what attracted me to this series in the first place.

Don't you main Willow? I have played every character by now probably, for at least over a ingame year. 

This is true. Ideally you would want only people who play a certain character to have a voice in the changes made. Though if we did that this thread probably wouldn't be as long as it is. Im giving my two cent mostly because I want to see how far the character can be take. Who knows, maybe, Id main the new wes (not a vaild reason, I know)? 

I am a member of this forum and as such Id like to think that my opinion still matters to some extent. The primary function of a forum is promote discussion not exclusivity. Not to shut down non like minded individual so your assessment is very unfair.

What's ironic is that the changes DO affect me if I were to open up a public server. If those meat eater eat spoiled meat against my previous warning am I to affected by their resulting diarrhea? No. That doesn't me I wont have to deal with said diarrhea smell if we are to share living space. 

  We are withholding Wes captive from the general public. I am willing to bet that those who do main wes would be quickly outnumbered by more casual fans should klei decide to buff him. Look at Wendy and how many new fans she gained after her rework. You might think that selfish to cater to the many at the expense of the few but from kleis perspective it may make sense. We have seen them do this multiple time too.

i didnt say you wanted them handed to you, i said you like your dst experience expedited. basically you want to do them better faster(or at least this is what you've expressed. as to whether or not you meant to express it that way is anyone's guess)

i do not main willow. i main wes, always have and have clocked up no less than 800 hours as him in together and about 130ish maybe a bit more in solo when i want a challenge. (ngl, i kind would have expected the name and icon and the fact that i participate in wes-themed threads to tell you as much, ha)

i didnt say you couldnt have a voice i just said that your critiques of a character you don't play isn't valid in a discussion about changing the mechanics of the character to make playing him more interesting since, you know, you don't play him and your opinions are at best woefully underdeveloped. it is why i wouldnt go on in a thread to make woodie or wx more fun. i dont play them and my opinion isn't helpful or constructive when it comes to playing them. that is just pragmatic.

actually the statistical chance of you meeting a wes is unlikely. for every 1 wes there were 4,500 wigfrids and 3,700 wendys at any given time only about 5 months ago. your odds are not good and  you are also conflating character choice with player skill again. this presumes all wes are bad and all wes are not contributing and all non-wes are innately better players and will contribute more to you personally as an individual. your expectations are nonsensical.

wendy's rework didnt change wendy's character in any dramatic way or undermine her play style. a wendy whose abigail doesn't need a rabbit to summon isnt really any different from one who does in a thematic way. a wes who talks when wes is literally based on an unspeaking artistic performer is. this is not solely on mechanics in a dry abstract way but also in a wet mucky way that affects the narrative of the character and the expectations the player has of the game. also as an aside there were wendy players who wanted changes to wendy. it wasn't done to only make non-wendy players happy, it also serviced the people who cared about the character and wanted her handled with dignity and care. a wes rework that did not take away from the character or mangle him thematically is fine but these suggestions are comprised almost entirely of ham-handed lazy speculations on what would make A character novel to play for a couple hours not thoughtful ones on what would make THIS character a better fit for a multiplayer game.

 

also so you dont get your knickers in a twist i have been openly trying to encourage more people to play wes since day one and while i have only gotten two people to main him and one to play him casually i have been trying and i do want more people to play him at least once or twice. my wish that he isnt removed from the game and replaced by a different character with the same face should never be confused with wanting to gatekeep and refuse others who earnestly want to play(actually if i could i would ask you to give him two or three goes at it with an open mind and a willingness to try new things.)

 

 

1 hour ago, QuQuasar said:

Yeah, I suppose you are correct. Even if we make any stat reductions entirely self-inflicted, players may demand that Wes outfit them by harassing them in chat. Bad.

But on the other hand, that toxicity already exists due to Wes' perceived status as a useless character who will only burden the team. Hence Wes mains getting kicked as soon as they join, players refusing to revive Wes players, "Don't pick Wes!" servers, some of the posts in this very thread (not pointing any fingers)...

With that in mind, we're back to the original concept for Wes: we need to maintain his status as a challenge character for expert players while alleviating the perception that he is The Load who contributes nothing and will eventually bring the entire server down.

So, okay, here's a few idea's that shouldn't change the game significantly for Wes players...

1. Eliminate his increased metabolism so he eats the same as anyone else while lowering his max food so it still takes him the same amount of time to starve.
2. A unique craft that negates the server-wide sanity loss from ghosts.
3. Give balloons a small sanity aura for non-Wes characters in addition to allowing them to be popped to quickly lower sanity.
4. Mime tools. Gather resources without costing tool durability.

Others have already mentioned idea's such as drawing aggro away from other players by being automatically prioritized by hostiles or having the ability to craft things that benefit others without benefiting him.

actually, i know this is going to sound kind of awkward but as soon as i started only playing in servers that were social or joining hosted worlds where i was upfront about my playstyle i stopped getting the pvp jokes and aside from a single instance where the server had that character(and a couple others) disabled i have not had an issue with not being able to join as him. going to be incredibly clear here too, at no point has anyone ever refused to revive me and in pubs i am regularily given heals by wortox players even when i am capped XD so i am not really sure where that came from

actually. that hunger swap would be pretty bad. see in solo i set my caps to 100, 100, 50(normally he is 113, 150, 113) and add 7% MORE drain to his meter and i still overproduce food, the downside is i am already barred from eating a LOT of foods because they either fill so much of my bar that i have to be close to starving to justify them or else i cannot eat them because they fill more than my stomach can hold at 0. i think he'd be even less desirable if he literally wasted food, also he is currently brilliant at sleeping as a health/sanity option but he'd probably waste rolls if he could not stay asleep for long enough to justify their use and not having sleep as an option makes caves a lot harder

i've been one of those people who go on and on about increasing his aggro. he is already a good bait(well, aside from wendy they all are) so letting him have the designation as THE bait would be a neat way to let him contribute actively in group combat without people fussing that weapons are a waste. it also would help with an issue that mobs sometimes have of not aggroing quickly enough and wasting time when trying to seperate them from a group

would the balloon pop as soon as the wes left the server or is it perpetual and if it is perpetual then would a ghost debuff or sanity boon make him a pick-and switch? if he is only viable after his balloon pops(and only until a new one is made) wouldn't he fall in the same spot as winona who is only needed while she is building then not needed after? aaalso he'd become a troll character if he could plant twenty sanity-drain balloons somewhere that they will cause problems

the sucker i am for shipwrecked i would love an invisible oar. it is too overpowered though and kind of ruins a lot of the value for driftwood but as silly as it is i would like it x''D defos dont think it should be added though especially after seeing and playing wortox. soulhops are common and accidental oaring would be too

 

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On 1/15/2021 at 5:02 PM, gaymime said:

dude, a character is only dead-weight is the player is dead-weight >_____>; just because wes does not have a  BONUS doesn't mean he is bad(especially since he can basically survive on seeds and flower garlands for three quarters of the year).

 

of course i'd wager a lot of the people complaining about wes dont play him or play with people who play him and are instead just looking at wiki and the forums for all of their information.

I agree, and disagree. It does depend on the player. But I would prefer an experienced Wicker, over an experienced Wilson.

43 minutes ago, gaymime said:

~SNIPPITY SNIPP SNIP!~
 

 

Holy smokes. This man just got both of you.

I whole heartedly agree with him.

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1 hour ago, gaymime said:

i didnt say you wanted them handed to you, i said you like your dst experience expedited. basically you want to do them better faster(or at least this is what you've expressed. as to whether or not you meant to express it that way is anyone's guess)

Sorry but you literally said "have your games do the work for you". Having a character become more interesting (my whole argument so far) does not equate to me wanting a faster experience.

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i do not main willow. i main wes, always have and have clocked up no less than 800 hours as him in together and about 130ish maybe a bit more in solo when i want a challenge. (ngl, i kind would have expected the name and icon and the fact that i participate in wes-themed threads to tell you as much, ha)

Oh, my bad. I saw you posted 'I main willow' on a 'who do you main' thread. It just occured to me that that was sarcasm.

 

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it is why i wouldnt go on in a thread to make woodie or wx more fun. i dont play them and my opinion isn't helpful or constructive when it comes to playing them. that is just pragmatic.

The way I see it there are two consensus' one is in favor of buffing Wes for general betterment of the community and the other prefers to have him neglected in favor of personal preference. So far the way I find klei takes feed back is when it is being expresses by a majority. I am in favor of the former and as such I will continue to support those who share that sentiment. I have so far not given any new ideas for perks because, as you say, I don't have much knowledge in that department. That doesn't mean I don't have valid points when allying with Wes mains (former and future mains) that the character has room for improvement.

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actually the statistical chance of you meeting a wes is unlikely. for every 1 wes there were 4,500 wigfrids and 3,700 wendys

These character are easier to use so of course they are more plentiful. 

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at any given time only about 5 months ago. your odds are not good and  you are also conflating character choice with player skill again. this presumes all wes are bad and all wes are not contributing and all non-wes are innately better players and will contribute more to you personally as an individual. your expectations are nonsensical.

I know a wes can contribute and I am not arguing that at all. If anything in all of my arguments I am presuming all Wes player to be innately SKILLED. Wes is great in good hands, that's a given, and also the problem. Wes has no chance of leaving the "challenge character" shadow that so closely follows him. 

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wendy's rework didnt change wendy's character in any dramatic way or undermine her play style. a wendy whose abigail doesn't need a rabbit to summon isnt really any different from one who does in a thematic way.

 

We can agree to disagree on that one. Wendys potions added so much versatility and utility that calling her "unchanged" is the understatement of the year.

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a wes who talks when wes is literally based on an unspeaking artistic performer is. this is not solely on mechanics in a dry abstract way but also in a wet mucky way that affects the narrative of the character and the expectations the player has of the game.

What does Wes being a mime have to do with expectations of any sort? If you mean he is weak because he is a mime then I can assure you there are mimes in the city of paris that can kick asses and take names.

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also as an aside there were wendy players who wanted changes to wendy. it wasn't done to only make non-wendy players happy, it also serviced the people who cared about the character and wanted her handled with dignity and care. a wes rework that did not take away from the character or mangle him thematically is fine but these suggestions are comprised almost entirely of ham-handed lazy speculations on what would make A character novel to play for a couple hours not thoughtful ones on what would make THIS character a better fit for a multiplayer game.

I haven't suggested any ideas on how he should be reworked... I have suggested making him more interesting but that doesn't mean I necessarily want him stronger. If you are in favor of making him a better fit for multiplayer then we are on the same side lmao! My stance is this to put it simply No change = bad. 

Now if I were to add suggeations for perks:

From your perspective wes is like a teacher and you sound like a great lad (or lady or nonbinary) who cares to give everyone an enjoyable experience so...

1. Let him take some of the damage of his fellow friends. Laughter is said to be the best medicine so perhaps he can amuse his friends at the cost of his misfortune (leaning on a wall only to fall). Kinda like pain split in pokemon. 

2. Taking the aggro off others ( As suggested multiple times).

3. Providing a show where he loses constant sanity while increasing the sanity of others (to protect them from nightmares).

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also so you dont get your knickers in a twist i have been openly trying to encourage more people to play wes since day one and while i have only gotten two people to main him and one to play him casually i have been trying and i do want more people to play him at least once or twice. my wish that he isnt removed from the game and replaced by a different character with the same face should never be confused with wanting to gatekeep and refuse others who earnestly want to play(actually if i could i would ask you to give him two or three goes at it with an open mind and a willingness to try new

 

I have tried him and thank you, for your sincere approach. If all Wes players are as helpful as you are then I beseech klei to give you the tools to give you an edge in the way you approach others. Now more than ever do I want klei to update Wes' tool kit but with a more clear goal in mind. That is to give others the notion that if a Wes player has joined the server they are going to have a good time. That they will be taught and guided to becoming better players.

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1 hour ago, gaymime said:

i think he'd be even less desirable if he literally wasted food, also he is currently brilliant at sleeping as a health/sanity option but he'd probably waste rolls if he could not stay asleep for long enough to justify their use and not having sleep as an option makes caves a lot harder

Fair. I didn't consider the effect on sleeping, high-food foods and the window with which to eat, only the time-till-starvation.

His metabolism does still seem to be the primary source of complaints when it comes to sharing a server with a Wes (despite the fact that food is easy to come by. It's about perception), so I'd still be looking for ways to remove that 25% or switch it from a group cost to a personal one... but nothing comes to mind off the top of my head.

1 hour ago, gaymime said:

would the balloon pop as soon as the wes left the server or is it perpetual and if it is perpetual then would a ghost debuff or sanity boon make him a pick-and switch?

I'd make it perpetual. Most of the characters have some pick-and-switch abilities at this point: this would be Wes'. 
 
I'd rather Klei make switching characters more expensive rather than factor it when deciding what character changes to make (honestly, it's rediculous that it takes 3 purple gems to teleport but only 1 to change characters), because the unique character crafts are some of the most fun and game-changing abilities in the game.

1 hour ago, gaymime said:

the sucker i am for shipwrecked i would love an invisible oar. it is too overpowered though and kind of ruins a lot of the value for driftwood but as silly as it is i would like it x''D defos dont think it should be added though especially after seeing and playing wortox. soulhops are common and accidental oaring would be too

We agree on shipwrecked. Best gamemode. :)

I was actually thinking the invisible tools would be items, craftable for free and only visible as icons within Wes' inventory (perhaps as a dotted outline), that disappear if dropped on the ground or left in a chest. So using an invisible oar would be exactly equivalent to using an ordinary oar.

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32 minutes ago, QuQuasar said:

 

Fair. I didn't consider the effect on sleeping, high-food foods and the window with which to eat, only the time-till-starvation.

His metabolism does still seem to be the primary source of complaints when it comes to sharing a server with a Wes (despite the fact that food is easy to come by. It's about perception), so I'd still be looking for ways to remove that 25% or switch it from a group cost to a personal one... but nothing comes to mind off the top of my head.

I'd make it perpetual. Most of the characters have some pick-and-switch abilities at this point: this would be Wes'. 
 
I'd rather Klei make switching characters more expensive rather than factor it when deciding what character changes to make (honestly, it's rediculous that it takes 3 purple gems to teleport but only 1 to change characters), because the unique character crafts are some of the most fun and game-changing abilities in the game.

We agree on shipwrecked. Best gamemode. :)

I was actually thinking the invisible tools would be items, craftable for free and only visible as icons within Wes' inventory (perhaps as a dotted outline), that disappear if dropped on the ground or left in a chest. So using an invisible oar would be exactly equivalent to using an ordinary oar.

yeah, there is so much extra stuff that is tied to the hunger outside of passive hunger drain itself. klei did a LOT of thinking when they designed this and really had an eye for giving people alternative means to accomplish their goals.

yeah, i am not sure how someone would repackage him conceptually, i mean wolfgang literally can curbstomp if he over-eats but people still get really quiet when one asks for food in pubs and there is still a forum perception that wolfgangs are a resource drain any time they are not fighting

walter has campfire stories which is a sanity boost that has no downside outside of immobility for the one that is telling the story and i watched three walters wreck stories by all telling it at once, the stories were boosted for the listeners and all the walters got notable boosts too

i have not heard anyone give any serious claim to making the idol more costly but it might not have the effects you want. for people a thousand days in the difference between one and five purple gems is not insurmountably impossible to bridge and for people who base on pubs(hosts, mods and dedicated builders) it would just increase the demands for certain characters and reduce the desire for anyone else which isnt what you want in a game where you are encouraged to play your favorites and given the necessary tools to thrive as those favorites

prettiest game for certain. i just am enthralled sailing through a biolu-filled beach during the night or a jungle when hurricane season kicks in. it is everything my little nerd heart wants<3

which is nice in theory but there are two MASSIVE problems, one of which the forum has jumped on. firstly having greatly-reduced need for resource gathering cuts out massive amounts of time, effort, drive to explore and gives severe advantage over any other character and the 'cost' would have to be prohibitively high to make it seem 'fair'; second this means griefers can come into a pub and without any delay or effort begin demolishing the server. a troll who can instacraft a hammer and torch is a very dangerous troll and if being a specific char is exclusively and unequivocally known as 'the troll character' then the banning and abuse only intensifies. right now the mod protocol for willows and webbers in peaceful communal servers is to be followed around(and sometimes invasively chatted up) like potential shoplifters in a crowded shop and the bulk of them are harmless and decent people.

 

 

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

Sorry but you literally said "have your games do the work for you". Having a character become more interesting (my whole argument so far) does not equate to me wanting a faster experience.

Oh, my bad. I saw you posted 'I main willow' on a 'who do you main' thread. It just occured to me that that was sarcasm.

 

The way I see it there are two consensus' one is in favor of buffing Wes for general betterment of the community and the other prefers to have him neglected in favor of personal preference. So far the way I find klei takes feed back is when it is being expresses by a majority. I am in favor of the former and as such I will continue to support those who share that sentiment. I have so far not given any new ideas for perks because, as you say, I don't have much knowledge in that department. That doesn't mean I don't have valid points when allying with Wes mains (former and future mains) that the character has room for improvement.

These character are easier to use so of course they are more plentiful. 

I know a wes can contribute and I am not arguing that at all. If anything in all of my arguments I am presuming all Wes player to be innately SKILLED. Wes is great in good hands, that's a given, and also the problem. Wes has no chance of leaving the "challenge character" shadow that so closely follows him. 

We can agree to disagree on that one. Wendys potions added so much versatility and utility that calling her "unchanged" is the understatement of the year.

What does Wes being a mime have to do with expectations of any sort? If you mean he is weak because he is a mime then I can assure you there are mimes in the city of paris that can kick asses and take names.

I haven't suggested any ideas on how he should be reworked... I have suggested making him more interesting but that doesn't mean I necessarily want him stronger. If you are in favor of making him a better fit for multiplayer then we are on the same side lmao! My stance is this to put it simply No change = bad. 

Now if I were to add suggeations for perks:

From your perspective wes is like a teacher and you sound like a great lad (or lady or nonbinary) who cares to give everyone an enjoyable experience so...

1. Let him take some of the damage of his fellow friends. Laughter is said to be the best medicine so perhaps he can amuse his friends at the cost of his misfortune (leaning on a wall only to fall). Kinda like pain split in pokemon. 

2. Taking the aggro off others ( As suggested multiple times).

3. Providing a show where he loses constant sanity while increasing the sanity of others (to protect them from nightmares).

I have tried him and thank you, for your sincere approach. If all Wes players are as helpful as you are then I beseech klei to give you the tools to give you an edge in the way you approach others. Now more than ever do I want klei to update Wes' tool kit but with a more clear goal in mind. That is to give others the notion that if a Wes player has joined the server they are going to have a good time. That they will be taught and guided to becoming better players.

yes, having the game do the work for you is literally what expedited means in a game with tasks, you gave up some of your agency by having the game automate and simplify tasks for you. having it handed to you means neither you not the game put in any work and it was just a free thing you got.

i've got my own personal theory on klei's opinion on the matter considering his rework animatic and the many times he has been featured in official art work. while they do change things if enough good-faith arguments are had on why a change needs to be made they do also trend towards following their own path when the complaints are lacking in merit or are detrimental to the game in some way

i'm not really concerned if he has the title of challenge character. that isnt really the concern here since it is actually his purpose. it is a bummer it makes him unpopular and it would be better if he was more desirable by far but the sentiment is fairly neutral. challenge characters are in many games it is just the rubbish idea that challenge=bad design which needs amending.

making him 'more interesting' still is reworking him though? unless what you are trying to say is you'd like the idea of him being changed but wouldn't actually condone it?

wendy's potions are still canonical and lore-friendly. they dont change her as a person and while they expand a player's understanding of her theme it doesnt change it. wendy is still a floramancer who has a dead sister and is obsessed with the occult because of it. nature-themed potions play into that really well and are fine.

so his lore(little though there is) is that he is weak/fragile and he has a very difficult time staying alive, he is also often shown being brave and adventurous despite this repeated showing of his delicate bodily constitution but even in his dreams the lack of physical capacity is kept intact. you can see this in the solo and together character selects, in the animations he shows up in and in several drawings done in the klei streams which generally imply or openly express his fragility, i mean his flavor-text literally states him having the survival odds of 'none' while the others are slim/grim X''D it is no secret that his fragility is as much his overarching themes as his compassion is

i actually asked if the poster would believe it since they were just as transparent with their love of webber X''D it was less sarcasm and more of a jape. most of the regulars are well aware of my preference and those who are not can totally see how clearly my favoritism is laid out by how i express myself

it is good to keep in mind the roles of other players, right now wortox actually fills the healer role since he can heal several people( as well as himself). wes would just be a very rubbish wortox which i think would not be a great idea since at the moment even the things he does as well as others is looked down on heavily because there are individuals who excel at it?. bad perception is one thing, actually doing a poor-man's bodge on a character would get even non-forumites frustrated
 

ok, so i have to make a confession. i cant tell if that is sarcasm or sincerity so i had to really think about if i should reply to it or not but i am going to assume you were being prosaic and a little rude  and not just smarmy with the intent of riling me X''D if it is the latter though that was really clever at least. as far as you having tried him i am not really sure what two hours did for you, may i ask how it went? what did you do? have you changed any part of how you played or did you try your usual methods of play in an effort to brute-force the tasks at hand? how did you deal with his drain? how did you interact with the local wildlife? what was your cave experience like? what recipes did you try?

2 hours ago, RoughCactus69 said:

I agree, and disagree. It does depend on the player. But I would prefer an experienced Wicker, over an experienced Wilson.

Holy smokes. This man just got both of you.

I whole heartedly agree with him.

if we assumed all players were equal then sometimes i agree with you on wicker being better. still doesnt mean wes is bad though it just means he isn't lord of the tentacles x''D for sure though i envy no wicker with a decorated winter's feast tree or who has 1hp and no healing consumables on-hand

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39 minutes ago, gaymime said:

ok, so i have to make a confession. i cant tell if that is sarcasm or sincerity so i had to really think about if i should reply to it or not but i am going to assume you were being prosaic and a little rude  and not just smarmy with the intent of riling me X''D if it is the latter though that was really clever at least.

I was 100% praising you. I feel like every time I post I'm met with a little bit of aggressiveness. Not sure with what tone people are reading what I write but im super chill like most of the time. 

39 minutes ago, gaymime said:

as far as you having tried him i am not really sure what two hours did for you, may i ask how it went? what did you do? have you changed any part of how you played or did you try your usual methods of play in an effort to brute-force the tasks at hand? how did you deal with his drain? how did you interact with the local wildlife? what was your cave experience like? what recipes did you try?

I used him for a in-game year in single player and then dropped him forever. I just played like normal building pig farms, setting base, killing bosses, etc. It was super boring. 

I ran out of things to argue about so... Good night. I said what I wanted to say so I leave the rest to Klei. Ciao.

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19 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I was 100% praising you. I feel like every time I post I'm met with a little bit of aggressiveness. Not sure with what tone people are reading what I write but im super chill like most of the time. 

I used him for a in-game year in single player and then dropped him forever. I just played like normal building pig farms, setting base, killing bosses, etc. It was super boring. 

I ran out of things to argue about so... Good night. I said what I wanted to say so I leave the rest to Klei. Ciao.

it is kind of just how this forum is. in circles where the most competitively pressing(not necessarily mean or hateful but certainly not relaxed or zen) speakers are given the most room to express themselves and nuance is fairly non-existent it is a given that tones will be taken with the least charity

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On 1/21/2021 at 12:13 AM, gaymime said:

if we assumed all players were equal then sometimes i agree with you on wicker being better. still doesnt mean wes is bad though it just means he isn't lord of the tentacles x''D for sure though i envy no wicker with a decorated winter's feast tree or who has 1hp and no healing consumables on-hand

Yeah, I agree. Sadly I don't act on that agreement. On PS4 the skill to player ratio is much lower than on PC. I normally ask for no Wilson's or Wes's. If I see that, it's an instant kick. In my opinion they don't bring the aspects I'm looking for. Now I understand that there are exceptions. (You for instance.) But I see so few Wes's and even fewer good Wes's. I just spare the headache and throw, "NO WES'S!" In the description.

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Its a bit more complicated than that..

Wes burns through more Wigfrid Battle Spears and Helms then any other character because he’s so weak with damage numbers, (a problem Wendy shared with him that was Fixed when she got the Petal Buff) Wes quite literally eats through more Armor & Weapons then any other character and it’s all BECAUSE of his bad design.

Now I’m not saying that Wes himself should be buffed: No as I said at the top of this post- It’s A bit more complicated than that.. Wes’s power and ability should come directly (and maybe even indirectly) from his TEAMMATES

Klei has already done this with him ONCE by making his favorite food a dish only WARLY knows how to create for him.

But it needs to be Deeper than that.. To make up for Wes wasting more Battle Spears maybe Wes can create a Unicorn Balloon that when given to Wigfrid boosts her OWN Damage (I play a lot of game like Smite and Paladins and I assure you that WES isn’t the first almost completely useless character without team mates to compliment him I’ve come across)

Wigfrids Weaponized Scroll could even be updated so Weapons used by WES last just as long as weapons used by non-Wes characters.

Wendys Petal buff could increase Wes’s damage to be on par with standard damage numbers of everyone else (if Wendy can get a bit of additional damage, Wes can too)

Thats how you balance him without actually balancing him.

Now as far as Wes’s Kit (the things he can do to help other players) the Unicorn balloon is one example.

Being able to create Basic tools using the REAL Resources required to create them (axe’s/pickaxes) and then because he’s a Mime looking at those tools in disgust and tossing them away before Miming that he is chopping / mining (and actually does so) is ANOTHER way to make him more of a team Character BECAUSE-

Wes has to gather the resources for and craft the actual axe/Pickaxe, but much like Woodie and Lucy axe the moment he tries to use a non-Lucy axe it swaps sprites with the axe he just dropped..

Wes would be almost identical to this except he would do it with an invisible tool (there was a glitch a while back that made characters do this) But The tool he throws away will all be 100% durability items his team mates can pick up and use themselves-

Wes’s mime versions last for the same durability as a normal axe.. and once depleted he must craft another.

Completely USELESS if your playing alone by yourself (what I suspect many of the players who play Wes wants him to be..) but when in a TEAM Setting Wes indirectly gains a perk that benefits others around him by leaving behind 100% durability tools Wes can’t even use. (Again basic tools only nothing OP)

There are literally a million and one Ways Klei can make Wes more of a viable character pick without making him any less “Wes” 

And until they change him to offer something like the above examples people are still going to keep kicking Wes out their servers.

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6 hours ago, RoughCactus69 said:

Yeah, I agree. Sadly I don't act on that agreement. On PS4 the skill to player ratio is much lower than on PC. I normally ask for no Wilson's or Wes's. If I see that, it's an instant kick. In my opinion they don't bring the aspects I'm looking for. Now I understand that there are exceptions. (You for instance.) But I see so few Wes's and even fewer good Wes's. I just spare the headache and throw, "NO WES'S!" In the description.

dude, as long as you openly disallow others from playing the game you arent going to be met with a better quality of player

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9 hours ago, gaymime said:

dude, as long as you openly disallow others from playing the game you arent going to be met with a better quality of player

I believe use of controller is not very easy in DST - the port was made as best it could be made, but as few times I tried to play DST with controller everything except fight (because I was bad at this anyway) was much harder.

Even to put sticks in a chest was quite complicated effort. So... Quality may be worse in general just because of controls. 

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18 minutes ago, Notecja said:

I believe use of controller is not very easy in DST - the port was made as best it could be made, but as few times I tried to play DST with controller everything except fight (because I was bad at this anyway) was much harder.

Even to put sticks in a chest was quite complicated effort. So... Quality may be worse in general just because of controls. 

Theres that.. but there’s also literal facts that Wes doesn’t bring anything at all of significant value to a team scenario- his entire kit no matter How good you are at the game is to take away by having X, X or X harder on him meanwhile he does not give back what he takes.. even if your the best Wes player to ever exist and can walk circles around everyone else due to their lack of experience compared to yours- The character Himself (and not the player playing him..) just takes away without giving back.

Wolfgang takes more food but he gives back in more damage (again the CHARACTER- Whoever is playing them is irrelevant to this discussion) 

Wes just takes more food and doesn’t give back Anything- no extra damage, no Sisturn sanity station NADA, Zip, Ziltch.

In fact I as a #Wendy Main would campaign to have the Sisturn removed from Wendy’s Kit and given to Wes so that for Wendy to use the Sisturn (the thing that makes her sisters flower bloom faster) and for her to have the most use out of Abigail, WES has to create it.

They could take away Wes’s own Ability to gain Sanity from wearing Head Garlands but in return.. he can craft them for only 3 Plucked Flowers instead of 12- it does nothing useful for HIM but it would give non-Wes (and Walter) players an early game easy sanity managing tool.

Wes hitting Weaker than average means he burns through more Wigfrid Spears ETC too, so that Wigfrid actually has to craft MORE spears just for Wes. (A problem him and Wendy BOTH shared until Klei gave Wendy the Petal Damage Buff)

In his current form all Wes’s character design does is take things away: And the only thing he gives back in return is maybe a few decorative balloons. It doesn’t matter how good the person playing the character is, Thats 125% irrelevant to what the character ITSELF can actually do.

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2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wes hitting Weaker than average means he burns through more Wigfrid Spears ETC

For this kind of things is important to take in count the player experience when talking about characters. A wes main will make hambats to dont waste weapons in boss fights (the only situation were his damage really matters because with dark sword he still be able to kill hounds with the same amount of hits)

And the food, again, isnt a problem. A experience player can bring, with ANY character, more food that he will never eat

He will eventually get his rework and will be oriented on teamplay like every new and reworked character but making a rework that only works in multiplayer, as some of you said, is a bad idea, there is a lot of soloplayers and even playing with people, most of the taks are divided to be more efficient so most of the time you play "alone". He can get new fun perks and new downsides like happend with woodie that is a good example of "risk and reward"

What he shouldnt get is a buff or downsides removed, there is already easy characters tuat bring too much to their selfs or for the team

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3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

snip

I consider people finding Wes as "only trouble" bad players themselfes. Who more and louder annouce "Wes useless" just probably have more problems to survive than average player. Otherwise, why anybody would be even bothered by somebody playing a harder character... :/

We don't need to have every character strong or too strong. Btw. Don't write to me big walls of text how "bad" is Wes, because I am not stupid and I know that character. :/

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4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

He can get new fun perks and new downsides like happened with woodie that is a good example of "risk and reward"

What he shouldnt get is a buff or downsides removed, there is already easy characters tuat bring too much to their selfs or team.

How is that going to be possible? The first part about getting new fun perks completely contradicts the second part about not giving him a buff or removing his Downsides.

If Every hound on the entire Server was reprogrammed to target and try to kill Wes first: Only people who already struggled playing as Wes will have problems with this new Downside, but the people who play Wes because he is quote “The Challenge Character” will Immediately be using this To their advantage, they already KNOW these hounds are going to ignore all their Non-Wes friends and beeline straight for him.. The rest is simply luring the hounds exactly where you want them to go.

My point any fun perks or additional downsides they give Wes will still be seen in a positive light as something Useful they gave him that he didn’t have before.

Edit: And you’d also have to take into account how the game would handle that if MULTIPLE Wes are in the world.. do all the hounds target the first Wes who joined the Server? Do they get evenly split down the middle between the two Wes’s? Or do they run around back & forth completely confused between the Wes player’s?

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18 hours ago, gaymime said:

dude, as long as you openly disallow others from playing the game you arent going to be met with a better quality of player

I'm not sure where you said it, but you said something about 1/200 - 1/400 players are Wes. (Let's go with 1/200.) So let's say that Half them picked him because they are new, having fun, just goofing off/trolling. Then lets say the other half .5/200 (0.0025%) of the player base are decent Wes people. I'm good. Play what you want, but if the description says no Wes and you join and get kicked...... well......

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22 minutes ago, RoughCactus69 said:

I'm not sure where you said it, but you said something about 1/200 - 1/400 players are Wes. (Let's go with 1/200.) So let's say that Half them picked him because they are new, having fun, just goofing off/trolling. Then lets say the other half .5/200 (0.0025%) of the player base are decent Wes people. I'm good. Play what you want, but if the description says no Wes and you join and get kicked...... well......

I think he's trying to say that good players don't join servers that limit what character people can play as, regardless of whether or not they wanted to play as that character.

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1) Personally Wes is boring for me to play. So is Wolfgang or Winona. I also think Wormwood (pre update) and Warly are more challenging to play, but that's just me. I also don't like the way he generates challenge. Certain things aren't really different (and thus harder) with him. They just take more time and/or preptime. Come to think of it, it's pretty much only combat anyways. 

I do enjoy playing Wilson from time to time, because he has no downside and I really like his examination quotes (those are an important aspect for me - I hate that Wormwood has nothing to say when examining other survivors' skeletons). Wes doesn't even have those. ;-( But I have met other players that really love his Mime-emotes and particular skins. For me it doesn't appeal enough to me to play him, so I would welcome a refresh.

2) I absolutely don't care, if anybody plays as Wes or even if everybody plays as Wes. Do they "cost" additional ressources? For sure! Does it matter? Not at all. Nothing that Wes consumes more of is scarce enough to make any kind of difference. Especially not food or lol @addtional spear durability.

3) I would never join a server, that bans Wes (or Willow or whatever) from playing. I'd automatically assume that the server's host is a narrowminded rookie at best. Worrying about other players class so much shows a certain lack of skill or prejudice that is just not my cup of tea.

4) The sisturn's main function is to make Abigail grow faster into her final form. That's handy and useful, when you try bosses or other things out and have Abigail die a lot. The sanity boost is minor and about as effective as standing on top of glommer for 3 days straight. I'm always amused by the people demanding "sisturns as sanity stations". Ask Wendy to build you a tent instead.

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1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

I think he's trying to say that good players don't join servers that limit what character people can play as, regardless of whether or not they wanted to play as that character.

i'm fine with that honestly. Everyone has rules when it comes to a server. If you don't like the rules, don't join. That's normally how it's been for like..... forever..... Now, if I join a public server and there is a Wes, a Wilson, a...... etc..... I don't care. Have fun my man. But don't get mad when you join a server telling you don't do something and you do and get kicked.

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40 minutes ago, Prinha said:

1) Personally Wes is boring for me to play. So is Wolfgang or Winona. I also think Wormwood (pre update) and Warly are more challenging to play, but that's just me. I also don't like the way he generates challenge. Certain things aren't really different (and thus harder) with him. They just take more time and/or preptime. Come to think of it, it's pretty much only combat anyways. 

I do enjoy playing Wilson from time to time, because he has no downside and I really like his examination quotes (those are an important aspect for me - I hate that Wormwood has nothing to say when examining other survivors' skeletons). Wes doesn't even have those. ;-( But I have met other players that really love his Mime-emotes and particular skins. For me it doesn't appeal enough to me to play him, so I would welcome a refresh.

2) I absolutely don't care, if anybody plays as Wes or even if everybody plays as Wes. Do they "cost" additional ressources? For sure! Does it matter? Not at all. Nothing that Wes consumes more of is scarce enough to make any kind of difference. Especially not food or lol @addtional spear durability.

3) I would never join a server, that bans Wes (or Willow or whatever) from playing. I'd automatically assume that the server's host is a narrowminded rookie at best. Worrying about other players class so much shows a certain lack of skill or prejudice that is just not my cup of tea.

4) The sisturn's main function is to make Abigail grow faster into her final form. That's handy and useful, when you try bosses or other things out and have Abigail die a lot. The sanity boost is minor and about as effective as standing on top of glommer for 3 days straight. I'm always amused by the people demanding "sisturns as sanity stations". Ask Wendy to build you a tent instead.

1- I fully agree with, please Klei re-design Wes and make him a viable character choice- if people still want to play Not Reworked Wes, maybe add a Classic toggle for it.

2- I said this before but, Xbox console does not have Klei official or dedicated servers- we only have Player hosted servers and those usually run for only as long as the host is playing, when the host leaves EVERYONE is kicked from the world: an average play session may last a few hours if your lucky.. And therefore (for Xbox at least) TIME is a serious factor: And Wes simply takes more time to do Everything with no pay off for it.

(Time is something I wish Klei would consider not just while reworking Wes.. but other aspects of the game as well.) 

3-the servers on Xbox one are directly hosted by a host player: Everyone is playing by and adhering to the rules of the server host: Because it’s not YOUR World your playing in.. it’s theirs: That world will cease to exist for you to play in when that host logs offline and it will continue to progress without you when that host hosts it servers that read as “don’t pick Wes” can boil down to two factors: People are inexperienced with the game and if you pick Wes you won’t bring anything but your own knowledge of the game to help them. Or equally likely: They don’t want things that your supposed to be doing collectively as a group TOGETHER to take LONGER because there’s a Wes.

4- I’m a Wendy Main both prior to and after her refresh I’m fully aware of what the Sisturn does, and I STILL Say they could give it to Wes..

For Wendy to get the most effective use out of Abigail Wes would have to build a Sisturn- Wendy gets the Nerf everyone cries out for all the Time, and Wes actually becomes useful to Me.

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