Super-compact alternating-battery power-grid! No more heavi-watt wires!

[Nikorasu]

The other day I came across a really interesting video/post by "Gamers Handbook", describing a novel power-grid design, that removes the need for heavi-watt wires. I was so fascinated with it, that I spent my free-time around Christmas tinkering with it, and I think I've made a significant improvement to the design, at least when it comes to the space it takes up.

The design uses automated power-shutoffs that alternate a couple batteries back and forth between the load and generator sides of a power grid, thus preventing loads from drawing directly on backbone line by isolating those circuits. And since generators and batteries themselves don't overload wires, doing this allows us to use the cheapest power wire in the game, as a grid-backbone line, while ignoring it's watt-limit! No more heavi-watt wires needed, and no more struggling to get wires through walls!

Gamers Handbook's transformer-loopback design even allows the system to regulate generator activity based on your power needs, which isn't usually possible with other similar switching-battery systems. Tho how it achieves this is a little harder to explain.. It uses 2 transformers to loop power back into the switching-batteries, so they charge each other through the backbone line while their generator is off. And since they're all on that same line, that keeps generator-controlling smart batteries all synched up to the demand on the grid.

Unfortunately, while it is a very clever way to bypass using heavi-watt wires, it's also a bit tricky to understand, and even more challenging to fit into an existing base. The smallest versions I could find were roughly 8x2 or 7x3. Now normally the game intends for us to draw 1-2kWs off our heavi-watt backbone lines, via a couple transformers.. 8x2 isn't huge, but it isn't exactly convenient either; It's twice as large as those 2 transformers, which traditionally serve the function we're aiming to replace here. So in order to make this more useful/worth it, I wanted to shrink it down as close as possible to 4x2, to make it similar in size to the thing it replaces. Luckily compacting things like this is my specialty, and after some trial-and-error, I got it down to 4x3. (Which I think is the smallest physically possible.)

So anyway, enough explaining, here's how to build it:

I hope the power wiring isn't too hard to see.. Those overlapping wires are wire bridges, which bring the backbone line up to their power shutoffs. Everything got way smaller when I realized the connection port of a wire bridge could be placed directly on top of a shutoff. lol

And here's how it can be connected to generators, to regulate them:

As Gamers Handbook mentioned in his video, there are several aspects which can be tweaked depending on your needs. More batteries can be added, the batteries' automation thresholds could be adjusted. And another useful thing to note, you can attach up to 1kW of load to the backbone line, or even 2kWs if you use Conductive Wire as your backbone.. Tho be careful, putting too much directly on that line WILL overload it.

Hopefully now that it can be made so compact, this idea will become more useful/viable for more players.

Feel free to let me know if you have any questions or improvements! Happy Holidays!

[McTraveller]

Wait, what? Generators and batteries can't overload wires!?

Yet another new thing I've learned after more than 500 hours playing...

[Saturnus]

11 hours ago, Nikorasu said:

Unfortunately, while it is a very clever way to bypass using heavi-watt wires, it's also a bit tricky to understand, and even more challenging to fit into an existing base. The smallest versions I could find were roughly 8x2 or 7x3. Now normally the game intends for us to draw 1-2kWs off our heavi-watt backbone lines, via a couple transformers.. 8x2 isn't huge, but it isn't exactly convenient either; It's twice as large as those 2 transformers, which traditionally serve the function we're aiming to replace here. So in order to make this more useful/worth it, I wanted to shrink it down as close as possible to 4x2, to make it similar in size to the thing it replaces. Luckily compacting things like this is my specialty, and after some trial-and-error, I got it down to 4x3. (Which I think is the smallest physically possible.)

So basically the same as my over 3 year old design.

Of course back then smart batteries didn't exist yet but we still made switched battery set ups none-the-less.

EDIT: Note that mine is 4x4 tiles when you count the wiring needed, yours is 4x5 tiles when wiring is counted. That's because I made this version specifically to be stacked on top of each other so no wires could be in the base tiles. I also made a version with tiny batteries that was even smaller but I can't find the picture of that one.

[Nikorasu]

33 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

So basically the same as my over 3 year old design.

Of course back then smart batteries didn't exist yet but we still made switched battery set ups none-the-less.
 

Oh wow! I thought I had searched around pretty thoroughly, to see if anyone else had made a small one like this, but I must have missed yours. Oh well.. At least it's fun to see how we achieved basically the same thing, just in a different way. heh

That really is an interesting way of wiring it up, both with your power wires, and your automation wires.. You must have a totally different way of thinking about compacting these circuit layouts than I do. You avoided using bridges in a way I never would have thought of. Pretty impressive/clever design, especially considering you did it before smart batteries existed!

Tho actually, I think I managed to reduce the complexity even further than yours, using less logic gates, and even fitting the automation wiring entirely behind the batteries themselves, rather than going into the floor or above the power-shutoffs. Course that doesn't add much benefit over yours, but it might make it even easier to fit into tight spaces.

[Saturnus]

4 minutes ago, Nikorasu said:

Actually, I think I managed to reduce the complexity even further tho, using less logic gates, and even fitting the automation wiring entirely behind the batteries themselves, rather than going into the floor or above the power-shutoffs.

It's only the oscillator that dips into the floor, and that's shared by all stacked battery switchers so it really doesn't count.

Automation is deliberately going above power the shut offs because it's "dead space" anyway as you need to have the wiring there.

What you'd do is stack a bunch of these on top of each other and then just run the automation wires in a big U.

[Nikorasu]

43 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

It's only the oscillator that dips into the floor, and that's shared by all stacked battery switchers so it really doesn't count.

Automation is deliberately going above power the shut offs because it's "dead space" anyway as you need to have the wiring there.

Ah, true. heh (Sorry I was editing my post when you replied.) hmm, I'm not positive I get why you've got 2 buffers and a second NOT gate in there, but I assume it's because you're not using smart-batteries, and those make up for it with timing? Without smart-batteries it's also not as responsive to adjust itself to power demands/spikes, tho that probably doesn't matter in most cases. heh But more importantly, using smart-batteries means it can be used to control generators, which your version doesn't.

Also, no, my version doesn't need 4x5 anymore than yours does, that's just for ease of visibility/layout in the example image. Actually the backbone line in my example can even be wired in from the top or bottom with my design, depending on need, simply by changing where the bridges are. The backbone and load lines don't count as part of the design's space requirements, since they'd exist regardless, and just flow past, on their ways to other things. This just taps into a backbone line already in a floor, by sitting on top of that floor. lol

And since mine doesn't use the floor or empty space above it for automation, it can be fit into a 3-tall room, in an area where most walls are already being used for other automated things. Not really that big an advantage, but it still might be a nice option for tight bases. When I said 4x3, I meant the buildings and automation, since those power wires can still connect to other things in various ways.

[Saturnus]

31 minutes ago, Nikorasu said:

But more importantly, using smart-batteries means it can be used to control generators, which your version doesn't.

Yeah, that was a bit tricky before smart batteries but we had solutions for that too.

See if you can figure out a way to simulate a smart battery using nothing but AND, OR, XOR, and NOT gates. And only having access to basic sensors (hydro, atmo, and thermo).

[HeatEngine]

That's a neat power wire configuration!

Setup I often use is the same size but slightly different configuration. Might be useful depending on were things are located.

Nearly identical automation, but I use ribbon reader/write as I often forget to adjust the delay on the filter gate and get super confused why stuff isn't working

[Nikorasu]

Holy cow! Our automation IS almost identical! Pretty sure that must be the only way to get it this small. heh Kinda like your way better.

And I LOVE your power-wiring layout for that, probably gonna start wiring mine that way! Originally, for the sake of taking the screenshots, I thought maybe splitting mine up between a backbone in the floor and load along the ceiling would make it easier to understand, since that's how GamersHandbook did it.. But unfortunately, it kinda turned out that my bridges make it a bit harder to see in there. lol Your wiring is easier to interpret and doesn't overlap the bridges over the shutoffs weirdly.

And I agree, having both wiring options available does make it easier to fit into different situations. For example, I think my wiring might be better for the generator/transformer-loopback scenario, since all the backbone-side stuff happens along the bottom in that case.

Thanks for sharing!

[TheMule]

Be aware of this bug, your design seems vulnerable, too:

 

[Nikorasu]

18 hours ago, TheMule said:

Be aware of this bug, your design seems vulnerable, too:

 

Well.. I am aware of that bug.. But I've yet to encounter it myself (because of the way I always save), and until I do I'm not really too worried about it.. lol

I've got a 0.1 buffer in there, which keeps both switch-side's automation matched up (which I thought reduced the chance of the bug happening), and HeatEngine posted an alternative version with a ribbon-reader, if that matters.. As far as the timer-fix, is that really necessary when the whole thing runs off the Smart Battery's automation port? Or was that fix only needed for people who made these switching-batteries with non-smart-batteries, and just did the switch-timing with an automation loop?

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, Nikorasu said:

I've yet to encounter that bug,

Just wait. One day it will hit you. 

[Nikorasu]

18 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Just wait. One day it will hit you. 

Well maybe, but either way, it shouldn't be too hard to wire a timer into the design to preemptively fix it. lol

Again, I've been semi aware of this bug before I even started playing with this design, saw other people talking about it. It just didn't bother me that much.. Heck lol, when I initially read about the bug, my first idea for a fix for it was to just slap a user-toggleable switch onto the circuit, for testing, so I could manually unstick it, but it never really happened to me, so I didn't give it much more thought.

Back in my Minecraft days, I DID used to encounter bugs LIKE this all the time, with my Minecraft Redstone contraptions/computers locking up on loading the game/chunks. lol So I know how frustrating it can be.

But frankly in this game, I usually make a conscious effort to end my play sessions with a manual save, just an old habit, and in doing so, I usually wait for a moment where my dups and machinery aren't doing anything.. So I think I'm just not very likely to encounter that bug.

[mathmanican]

2 hours ago, Nikorasu said:

snip...

I'm just not very likely to encounter that bug.

Wishful thinking. It will hit you one day and you'll be pretty ticked when it does as your base implodes because of a power outage.  It took me 1000 hours of play before I noticed it happen regularly and could identify the problem. Prior to that I figured it was just something stupid I did (not a glitch in the game). Now I can recreate the bug at will whenever I want, and also have it appear when I don't want. It's an annoying little bugger. You've been warned. FYI, it has nothing to do with smart batteries, and everything to do with power shutoffs. The hysteresis on the battery is the reason why it never resets, which is why it becomes a problem. The bug still occurs with the timer solution, it just resets every second so no problems arise. 

I know @nakomaru tested it in the last month to verify that the bug still exists.  You can find a several year history of potential workarounds for this bug, ranging from water clocks to complicated automation systems, and more. It just requires a little google magic to search the forums (check my signature line). @TheMule provided you with a great starting point too tap into this history.

The timer fix is quite simple, and allows batteries to work both directions (a plus in my opinion). @nakomaru, was the timer addition your creation?  I don't think I've seen that workaround till you posted on the thread last month. It was ingenious, whoever thought of it.  Very elegant and simple. 

[nakomaru]

1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

was the timer addition your creation

As a workaround for the bug, I did add this on my own. (perhaps others have too)

Surely the oldest case of a timed switching battery is no later than early 2018.

When we began to understand the shutoff bug in 2019, and collectively failed to find a smart solution, I gave up on the smart battery and changed to an oscillator, then changed to a timer in 2020. As you point out, it will still fail on load but quickly recovers.

ps: heavi-watt > no heavi-watt
pps: my preferred layout is compact in the vertical direction, which gives ample room for wiring to pass, or stacked every 3 tiles including flooring, and is very easy to follow. To nobody's surprise, this electrical layout comes from @Saturnus as well.

ppps:
If you don't care about the bug, you can also use this layout to work in both directions. Why does it work? Nobody knows.

[psusi]

On 12/26/2020 at 2:18 PM, Saturnus said:

See if you can figure out a way to simulate a smart battery using nothing but AND, OR, XOR, and NOT gates. And only having access to basic sensors (hydro, atmo, and thermo).

You can't?  With a shutoff and a pipe element sensor I suppose you could detect a power failure when the battery dies, but there's no way to detect when it is full ( or at any other threshold ).

[TheMule]

15 hours ago, mathmanican said:

The timer fix is quite simple, and allows batteries to work both directions (a plus in my opinion)

I think what you loose is the ability to emulate smart batteries in controlling which bank of generators (based on fuel) gets activated first and which last. But is should be easy to go back to a battery controlled setup with the addition of a timer as a reset only.

At the end of the day, what makes the design fail is both batteries disconnected from any grid (all shutoffs open, despite two of them receiving green signal), both full with no load. Things are going to stay like that for a long time (based on runoff). All you need is to reset that. I haven't tested it but it seems that a timer and an AND gate is all you need, to "break" the green signal for a little while. 

[nakomaru]

As much as I dislike this build, this seems like the solution to me.

[mathmanican]

6 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

snip

No dead dupes in that video!!!! Have you gotten soft? You've disappointed me.   Happy new year. 

[KittenIsAGeek]

1 hour ago, nakomaru said:

As much as I dislike this build, this seems like the solution to me.

I like that build for controlling generators.  Use the batteries to control the generators, and the timer to control the power cutoffs.  My current methods have been to use smart batteries at the generators that go through a transformer, providing power to a bank of switched batteries, allowing high power over low quality wires.  This dramatically reduces the complexity of the system.  You can add a simple AND gate to the output from a reservoir to completely disable the generators when hydrogen levels are low.  Alternatively, you could have petrol generators in the same area that disable the hydrogen generators while petrol supplies are adequate.  I think this design has some good potential.

1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

No dead dupes in that video!!!! Have you gotten soft? You've disappointed me.   Happy new year. 

Look in the upper left.  3 duplicants have died.  They simply aren't on screen.

[nakomaru]

These minor tweaks missed my first draft, but you can reduce the height to 4 tiles total without the automation sticking out the bottom like this.

Left:

Both directions:

[Occam Blazer]

I'm beginning to wonder if it's not simpler to scrap all the automation and just run it off a single timer instead of having the batteries control the signals.

[nakomaru]

17 minutes ago, occamrazor said:

I'm beginning to wonder if it's not simpler to scrap all the automation and just run it off a single timer instead of having the batteries control the signals.

You've seen that solution demonstrated already. This new battery solution is only for people who want to solve a problem that doesn't exist (heavi-watt).

[Nikorasu]

Well, after having messed with this method for a few weeks now.. It's certainly a novel way to make a power grid in this game, without much benefits, I'll give you that.. With limited/niche uses that barely even justify using it, in comparison to the minor downsides of heavi-watt.. lmao, But that's not really the point.. Obviously this method isn't worth it for most people. I think it's more like a self-imposed Achievement, like "Avoid using Heavi-Watt wire as a power-grid backbone." lol

For me, it's just been a fun challenge to get working. I've been tinkering with it, trying to understand it in sandbox, and then trying to build it into my survival base legit, and keeping it working, which is even harder..

Originally when I posted this, I hadn't been able to find any existing versions quite as compressed/compact as I'd been able to shrink it.. So I thought I had at least made it more reasonable to achieve, space-usage wise, and was worth sharing.. ^^; But I guess I wasn't the first to fit it all into 4x3. lol

On a side note, I'm learning some interesting things about Power Transformers in this game. In my original images I was using 2 small Transformers to loop power back into the grid, from a battery bank /w generator control (which I got from GamersHandbook).. But I recently noticed if I start adding more batteries to the equation to turn that into a proper battery bank (instead of putting pairs all over the place), my Smart-Battery controlled flipper-batteries elsewhere on the grid, which extract power from the grid backbone down to 2k wires, would all drain out their left batteries, and I'd end up with frequent power outages..

Well, after some testing in sandbox, I figured out I can fix that issue by simply using a Large Power Transformer, and the more I use, the faster those batteries charge/discharge each other, and recharge others on the grid. Of course this reintroduces the need for Heavi-Watt Wire, at least within a Battery-Box, between a large batch of switching batteries, and the Large Transformers.. But IMO as long as it's within an isolated area, I don't mind using the heavi-watt in that case, I just don't like running it between distant areas.

[nakomaru]

Long distance heavi-watt is indeed a problem worth solving. Thankfully it was done years ago with the battery switcher.