Why is sandstone/terra start still this hot?

[babba]

40 minutes ago, psusi said:

Volcanoes now spawn on only 3 tiles of neutronium?

...

That is how they currently spawn in the current dlc terra world. I was surprised too

[misotoma]

13 minutes ago, babba said:

That is how they currently spawn in the current dlc terra world. I was surprised too

OH MY GOD   haha thanks man! No wonder I saw so many 3 tile neutronium in my map I was thinking.. "are they bugged geysers?"

Awesome thanks for that bit of info.

[Lurve]

58 minutes ago, psusi said:

Except vanilla has cold biomes to allow you to survive until you can build a ST+AT and possibly a cool slush or PW vent.

The entire surface layer is deeply frozen and has tons of ice to melt.  You can't possibly thaw the entire thing without deliberately trying.  It's easier than a vanilla ice biome, in fact, because you can mine the abyssalite and just let your hydrogen roam free up there to conduct heat from your piping.  If even that is insufficient, the teleroid has lots of wheezeworts which would be an embarrassment of riches for cooling a vanilla world, because its surface layer is one giant cold biome.  IIRC, three are sufficient to cool an electrolyzer's output.  My map is at 15 and counting.

There are lots of cooling options other than suckling from a slush vent.

[misotoma]

5 minutes ago, Lurve said:

The entire surface layer is deeply frozen and has tons of ice to melt.

Yep the more I play the asteroid the more I agree with your view. Also! Don't overlook two things which .. well I just thought of right now to be honest. Dreckos are available.. which means early plastics (cooling) and reed fiber is right there lol. The play style is VERY different here which is, to my surprise, cool. If that was intended by Klei, well done lol.

[Slvrsrfr]

Possibly reigning in some of the boundary temps would be nice.

the bottom abyss layer could be set at lower, I feel. It really needs to be no more than the deepest oranges, imho. The main biome ring could still be brought down a few degrees. And possibly set with clamps for the extremes. Stray matter 4-5 times hotter than the avg temp needs equalizing, or elimination via substitution. Stray material seems to fall in from the left side, into the right sides of neighboring hexes. Something in the code is not aligning, it seems to me. It is persistent, consistent, and readily predictable. I view it as a problem.

The upper abyss boundary is also too cold in that same respect. It should be more equalized with the adjacent hexes. A high yellow, more green. Much warmer.

Also the abyss does not have to be a consistent avg temp as a given, in older versions of map gen, the abyss boundaries would have different temp layers within the bands.

not entirely thrilled with the etched consistency in the caustic biome abyss banding, and overall temps.

They did increase the number of wheezeworts appearing, that's nice.

[babba]

My Swamp after 170 cycles, with no cooling built at all.

I`m starting to heat up the map with lots of built composters, otherwise its too cold and everything will freeze.

Swamp is a very easy start map and good for beginners to the game.

DLC Terra is for hardcore players.

Swamp: 2x -10 celsius geyser`s

Terra: 2x 110 celsius geyser`s

Both maps are extreme to either temperature side IMHO.

[TripLykely]

24 minutes ago, babba said:

Both maps are extreme to either temperature side IMHO.

I have a feeling (read: hope) future cluster starts will change your definition of extreme.

[babba]

2 minutes ago, TripLykely said:

I have a feeling (read: hope) future cluster starts will change your definition of extreme.

Ty

Once all rockets are in the game it will be so much more fun ( for me at least ).

[Sasza22]

Ok i started another playthrough on terra expecting it to be hell and needing to evacuate to the swamp biome in under 50 cycles. I played a bit recklessly mining out most of the starting biome and even uncovering a minor volcano (that entombed itself back with the first eruption a few cycles later).

After about 40 cycles the only things heating my biome are the buildings i made myself. Most of the biome is safe in the green temp range without even using insulated tiles. Looks like the temperature problems will start much later. The cool steam vent is pretty close but not touching the starting biome. Dumps the 110 degrees water that goes fast to 50 while it dumps the heat around itself. Again it will be a problem in about 50-60 more cycles. No rush.

Maybe it was a lucky spawn with mostly slime biomes around but it still feels like beginners won`t encounter issues for about 80-100 cycles. Meanwhile the swamp start can be tricky for them with all the mud falling down and it generally being easy to flood your base by accident. Sandstone start is cleaner and easier at the beginning. Later it will require a lot of transitioning as algae and coal run out while the swamp offers you a longer time of stability after the initial cleanup.

Overall i don`t see a reason to rush ST+AT setups or leave the world. There is still enough time to stabilize before it turns ugly. I`m going to try more primitive cooling and see how long it lasts. If i only had more time to play.

[Torvon]

Not a big pro here, but I've played maybe 3k to 4k cycles in various maps over the last 2 years or so.

I really struggle with terra start. Two issues: water and heat.

1) After 70 cycles or so, water is pretty much gone, and the map has heated up considerably, despite me insulating the 2 "cool" (...) steam vents very early on. Only way to get water now is getting into the steam vents, but of course I don't have plastic or steel on this map at this stage, so aquatuner + steam energy is not a possibility.

2) I also have no idea how to cool the base. Yes there is a bit of ice on top but that's not sufficient to deal with the 2 steam vents and all the volcanos / lava. 

No idea how to move forward. Any thoughts welcome.

Food, as others mentioned, has not been a prob so far, given that you can move from mealwood quickly to the grub fruits (tons of sulfur on the map, I use grub stuff to save water because it does not consume any, in contrast to mealwood).

[Sasza22]

6 hours ago, Torvon said:

the map has heated up considerably, despite me insulating the 2 "cool" (...) steam vents very early on.

The steam vents won`t heat up your base by themsleves. The thing that heats your base early on are heat producing buildings like batteries, generators and compost. Just put them near the edges. Then after you run out of water pumping hot water through the base gets it hot in no time.

Next thing you need to think about is what do you need water for. You can rely on grubfruit and meal lice for food and none of them needs water. Grubfruit also grow in up to 50 degrees so you can easily plant them in the slime biomes. If you want water for toilets you can let those heat up to 50-60 degrees safely as long as you insulate it from the rest of the base. Eletrolizers can take pretty hot water as well. Thay output gasses at a pretty high temperatue anyway and it`s much easier to cool those down than water.

Eventually you can run an aquatuner submerged in one of the polluted water pools. It takes 50-100 cycles for that pool to heat up depending on the size of it. That`s enough time to move forward with other things. You can also run the water through the top layer of the map. It`s around minus 65 degrees and hydrogen naturally moves there making a great heat conductor. It can cool down quite a bit of water but might take a lot of rebuilds of the cooling loops once one area gets heated up.

You can also do some exotic designs like ice makers to dump heat into a different spot or thermoregulators on the outside of the base running hydrogen loops. Bringing some wheezeworts from the warp asteroid won`t hurt either. There`s a lot of them out there and it`s already cool enough there.

[Torvon]

Sasza, thanks so much. The second asteroid is indeed so helpful, I should haver gone there earlier (such an easy asteroid, so many resources). 

[tohoheha]

6 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

Eventually you can run an aquatuner submerged in one of the polluted water pools. It takes 50-100 cycles for that pool to heat up depending on the size of it.

Clever, never though about dumping a bunch of heat into one of those pools. I'll try for my next playthrough. My strategy has been rushing plastic with Drekko ranching and building an ST+AT set up but it's fairly annoying without steel.

[Steve8]

13 hours ago, Torvon said:

I also have no idea how to cool the base. Yes there is a bit of ice on top but that's not sufficient to deal with the 2 steam vents and all the volcanos / lava. 

Why do you have issues with volcanoes? Just don't open them.

And cooling is the same as on any other maps. Get some steel by dumping some heat into a polluted water pool. Ranch Dreckos for plastic. And build a steam turbine.

[Hechicera]

I think I should rush insulated tile research here but ...

If this is a world gen for new players:

-  I have a steam geyser 24 tiles horizontally over from the base of the printing pod. 22 tiles between neutronium of geyser and sandstone tile at base of pod spawn.

- it is in a slime biome which intrudes into the starting biome, and has, as I count, about 20 slime tiles that need to be excavated to seal it.

- two of the intruding slime tiles are 21 tiles from pod base.

I can build on the other side sure, but that's a trap as they heat will be getting you fast.

Coord: SNDST-C-1463383216-0    (leave default terra, pan left at load in, can't miss it, not one tile needs to be dug to spot it)

Build on the other side and then go to the second asteroid? Reasonable suggestion.

Guess where the porters are? I used sandbox and checked. So this particular seed is newbie evil. Just plain mean.

I would suggest upping the distance from pod on the hot geyser spawns by 8 tiles. That way closest slime/geyser biome tile would still be outside the granite shell of the starter biome. This would give someone new a reasonable buffer to learn "how to base" and research before a frantic rush to cap, maybe with slime issues.

No slime won't kill you now, but it will slow you down in the rush.

 

 

[sakura_sk]

42 minutes ago, Hechicera said:

So this particular seed is newbie evil

What do you mean? Many seeds are  

SNDST-C-1010389001-0 created at 18 December (don't know if last update changed it) and...

I left it there at cycle 0, created a new map and forgot about that one...

[Hechicera]

True!  A twin to the right!

But this thread was about with a smaller, hotter, Terra start being less friendly. There are more clocks that start ticking in the DLC that a new player may not realize, and more resources missing. So if you want a smaller hotter map to be still newbie friendly then these particular seeds really are mean. There also isn't a teleporter you need to find hiding behind it in a base game.  That was sort of the cake on the seed I had.

 

 

[sheepsy90]

On 12/16/2020 at 10:46 AM, babba said:

I would currently consider the default Terra as too hardcore for beginners and newbies to the game.

Don't worry - we'll manage

Remember glass is easy to create and Solar Panels are now "free energy" so yeah you need to know a little stuff but wiring up an aquatuner to a bunch of solar panels to separate hot from cold until you managed more stuff should be feasible.

Also I am currently at cycle 300 or so and I am still fine making my way to a sustainable colony before moving on to ANY other planet. I agree that if you open up the game for the very first time it might be tough and you might fail after some time. But that will happen anyway as you might not do some essentials in the beginning - it is after all a survival game.

[The Plum Gate]

Having heat issues early on terra largely effects farming rather than dupe comfort.

I have remediate some of this by capturing relatively room temperature liquids from the swamp biomes and pumped this into temperature preserving pools with insulated tile surrounds.

The other thing I have done is taken ice deliveries from care packages and used that. The ice maker and the ice fan.

I dump the cold water it spits out on the floor for additional cooling if need be. I mop that up later.

The other trick is I put heat generating stations at bottom of base along with water sieve and co2 scrubber - this can evacuate a good bit of heat at the bottom of base - I will eventually store the co2, but If I need to get rid of it, i can bring the more moderate o2 down quickly.

I dump heat into secondary liquid pools, it is admittedly easier to use the pools like this with liquid storage buildings inside the pools ( to save space as it were ).

I'll aqua tune from one pool to another if needed. This will come later.

[Sasza22]

1 hour ago, The Plum Gate said:

Having heat issues early on terra largely effects farming rather than dupe comfort.

When out of cool water you can still rely on grubfruit that grow in up to 50 degrees or on dusk caps that should be comfortable in the slime bime temperatures. Just need to make sure your heat producing buildings (batteries, compost, generators) are far from the farms and that you don`t pipe water nearby. A little bit of geyser water getting pumped will add more heat to your base in once cycle than natural heat conduction would in over a hundred.

1 hour ago, The Plum Gate said:

The other trick is I put heat generating stations at bottom of base along with water sieve and co2 scrubber

I`d rather put them near the top. Convection might push the heat faster up than down. Or best just put it next to the base in a biome that`s already too hot for basic crops.

[sakura_sk]

1 hour ago, The Plum Gate said:

Having heat issues early on terra largely effects farming rather than dupe comfort.

My farming on terra needed heating up after putting freezing cold dirt from space biome into mealwood farm. 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Hechicera]

I played the seed I linked. Then started another to try a different tech path (space faster) and ended up with another seed where the steam vent was *right there*. Both of them I got well into the 100+ cycles.

I did rush to cap the one nearby, and that was important. I did two different mitigation strategies (both worked well enough). My feedback on playing it though isn't that, if a newbie, I wouldn't have butted heads on heat management and learned that ONI lesson in "how to base". I was constantly reminded how thin my margin was with heat management. And the run with random ice before cycle 100 was much faster to progress than the one with random ice not appearing in the pod until I was making my own ice.

My feedback here is that dealing with these issues in "how to base", while meaningful, caused me to delay both space access and access to the teleporter planet. If the goal of a more compact map is to get us to move to those game play options sooner the seeds with a nearby active vent and lots of nearby hot biomes on terra (not the swamp) is counter productive. It becomes more critical to do "how to base" with no heat errors. It does not give you quicker access to space since if you ignore the impending heat issues you have food problems too quickly.

You are paradoxically better rushing the top of the map (for cool) than the teleporter planet as you open fewer hot biomes. But by not digging them out and controlling them (the other steam vent will be in the hot biome not the swamp) ... you set yourself up for a food failure if you do space or the teleporter asteroid before doing all the usual heat management. If going to the teleporter planet you have more digging and more hot materials management to do before you are stable enough to expand.

So they still need to rethink the heat here: if the goal is to get the player to space or teleporter asteroid faster these maps are counter-productive as further feedback after playing two seeds like this well past cycle 100. It isn't that they aren't playable, but the heat stakes are much higher on a small map with no ice biome or wheezies. I want to try a seed with the steam vent further out (just hot terra), and the swamp start now for comparison.