Wolfgang is overrated

[Mike23Ua]

As a Wendy main I think I have the right to suggest this- but I would love it if Every Character in the Entire game had mobs that they were Strongest and Weakest Against- For Wendy those two Mobs are Frog Rain and Shadow Monsters.

Something they excel better than any other character in the entire game at fighting, and then something they’re weaker then everyone else at fighting. just like Wendy’s Frogs & Shadows.

Willows Strengths would be fighting Shadows and Fire Mobs, her Weaknesses would be fighting Cold mobs that deal with Ice attacks (aka Deerclops) 

Wolfgang having a Myriad of Phobias that never once plays into the gameplay at all whatsoever just doesn’t sit right with me at all, Phobia means Fear... so what does Wolfgang fear?

And What mobs should he Excel at fighting, and which should he be worst at fighting?

Its questions like this that I hope are on Klei’s mind when it comes to his upcoming refresh.

[ZTheNecromancer]

14 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

so what does Wolfgang fear?

Everything that's not a tool or food.

[minespatch]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

so what does Wolfgang fear?

Dogs. He really doesn't like dogs.

[Rinkusan]

On 12/5/2020 at 5:47 PM, Toros said:

The natural question to ask if you accept that point is: Then why isn't Wolfgang more popular as a choice?

There are two main reasons for this:

1) His upsides are not fun, just powerful.  Wolfgang does not bring any new playstyle and very few new strategies to separate his gameplay from other characters.  As such, he is not unique in his gameplay.  You don't produce different food, you just produce more of the same food (most of the time).  He does not bring any out of combat utility besides the speed boost.

2) His downsides are trivial and tedious.  Extra hunger drain as a downside is not difficult, but it is tedious until it becomes forgettable later on.

From my experiences in pubs, starvation really is a major element, especially with servers well above the typical 8 players. The more people on a server, the less trivial his downside actually becomes. There are so many sources of food on the go, but fewer berries on bushes usually means desperation/death for the typical player. You'll occasionally see people understandably blame buff Wolfgangs at base if the food supply's running short.

[Muzarello]

I've been playing Wolfgang in my 2000+ days world, and I kinda like him, but it's just because I can kill everything I already fought faster, there is nothing that makes him that special besides the damage, and I wouldn't change the damage at all, he is Mighty,no one is mightier, and that's nice.
A wolfgang refresh would need to be MORE, more downsides or more to his character at least, I can agree with the people who find him boring, it's just a boss rushing machine in the end.

Rework Ideas for Wolfgang:

He spawns with a Football helmet and refuses to wear any other headgear
He only eats Pierogi,Cacti and Lichen
He can only use Hambats and Dark Swords
He can't use any seafaring,it's not pratical
He loses sanity near Old and New farm plots
He spawns insane
and plays extremely aggressive

Hope you guys like the ideas,tha'ts not the whole content of edgy rick, I swear. 

[Toros]

10 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

From my experiences in pubs, starvation really is a major element, especially with servers well above the typical 8 players. The more people on a server, the less trivial his downside actually becomes. There are so many sources of food on the go, but fewer berries on bushes usually means desperation/death for the typical player. You'll occasionally see people understandably blame buff Wolfgangs at base if the food supply's running short.

Pubs are almost a different game due to how often the servers reset and how unskilled the players are, so I wouldn’t consider them much as far as balance goes.

The farming changes in beta should solve the food scaling problem in larger groups.

[Mike23Ua]

Quick Off-Topic question-

Spoiler

 But you said well above 8 players.. but Xbox One is hard locked at 6 total, there is often an over abundance of food and you can run around the map for hours and never encounter another player (especially in worlds set to Big) So then How many players is PC & PS4 capable of? Without counting mods... what is the official player count? and how much harder is it to find and keep food with more then 6 players?

I never actually took into account that Wolfgang’s boring lame (to me) downside of being weak when can’t find food to be mighty might actually be possible for people who have more then 6 people running around eating up all the food sources. 
Can someone who plays on both Console and PC provide their experiences.

[Rinkusan]

6 hours ago, Toros said:

Pubs are almost a different game due to how often the servers reset and how unskilled the players are, so I wouldn’t consider them much as far as balance goes.

The farming changes in beta should solve the food scaling problem in larger groups.

You should consider them though because these people are commonplace DST players just like us meta-analyzing nerds. The new farming mechanics would certainly have been less well-received if, for example, fertilizer balancing was mandatory at the expense of the typical inexperienced farmer/mathematically uncomfortable player.

I don't disagree with the rework you've suggested, mind you; I just disagree with the idea that Wolfgang's hunger downside is trivial. 

[Toros]

2 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

You should consider them though because these people are commonplace DST players just like us meta-analyzing nerds. The new farming mechanics would certainly have been less well-received if, for example, fertilizer balancing was mandatory at the expense of the typical inexperienced farmer/mathematically uncomfortable player.

I don't disagree with the rework you've suggested, mind you; I just disagree with the idea that Wolfgang's hunger downside is trivial. 

An experienced player whether solo or duo is able to maintain mighty form starting day 1.  A rather inefficient player but one who manages to survive in the live (non-beta) version will eventually get enough stonefruit and bunny hutches or even bee boxes to passively generate enough food to sustain mighty form (or you just get a belt of hunger).

Wolf's hunger drain will always become trivial to overcome eventually if the player lives long enough, and in skilled hands that happens immediately.

Unlike Wormwood's inability to heal or Wigfrid's inability to eat veggies, it's not really even forcing you to adapt your playstyle to accommodate the downside.  You just do the same things you do to feed yourself as Wilson, but more of them.

The cool thing about the farming rework is that just like old farming it is totally unnecessary to use it to survive.  Monster meat + 3 filler or ice is enough for even a fairly mechanically unaware player to make it through winter and other seasons you can just do berry bushes and monster meat which is enough to survive, perhaps with some cactus thrown in for sanity or pierogi.

A lot of pub players don't understand how to even kite which is a way bigger issue than starving even as wolfgang, though I can't deny that on pub servers the reputation of Wolf is someone who stands at base devouring your food and doing nothing.

[Rinkusan]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

An experienced player whether solo or duo is able to maintain mighty form starting day 1

I agree, but my entire point is that a whole bunch of variables and scenarios need to be considered when balancing a character, not just "the solo player meta". Imo every character, including Wes, is overpowered in solo/duo DST, but I'm not going to just call for a universal character nerf since there are other gameplay scenarios to consider outside of solos/duos. 

[Toros]

1 hour ago, Rinkusan said:

I agree, but my entire point is that a whole bunch of variables and scenarios need to be considered when balancing a character, not just "the solo player meta". Imo every character, including Wes, is overpowered in solo/duo DST, but I'm not going to just call for a universal character nerf since there are other gameplay scenarios to consider outside of solos/duos. 

My first point is why are you assuming that I haven’t considered all the variables?  I have, I just haven’t decided to write an essay on why food isn’t a concern unless you’re playing with more than six mostly clueless people.

That said, I’d really like to hear how Wes is OP.

[Rinkusan]

30 minutes ago, Toros said:

My first point is why are you assuming that I haven’t considered all the variables?  I have, I just haven’t decided to write an essay on why food isn’t a concern unless you’re playing with more than six mostly clueless people.

That said, I’d really like to hear how Wes is OP.

Because you said you shouldn't consider all the variables/scenarios, right here:

14 hours ago, Toros said:

Pubs are almost a different game due to how often the servers reset and how unskilled the players are, so I wouldn’t consider them much as far as balance goes.

You should consider every kind of player and every kind of scenario that makes up the heterogenous DST experience rather than alienating "unskilled players" or throwing pub-related scenarios out the window when considering balances. That's all I was trying to say in response to your previous comment.

The solo DST experience is in my opinion unchallenging and uninteresting, hence my hyperbolic statement about every character including Wes being "OP", but that wasn't the point. My point was that by the same tunnel-vision logic, I should support a character-wide nerf to everyone as a way of "rebalancing" the solo DST meta, even though this would almost certainly ruin the fun for other players in other non-solo situations. 

[Pine G]

My current opinion of Wolfgang is that he needs more to him. Right now, he is a semi broken character with meaningless downsides. People have the choice to play an "op" character as him, but often don't pick him, simply because he is boring. I'm eagerly looking forward to what his rework will bring, mechanic-wise and lore-wise, since we know so little about his story.

[Starlogy]

3 minutes ago, Pinegrove said:

My current opinion of Wolfgang is that he needs more to him. Right now, he is a semi broken character with meaningless downsides. People have the choice to play an "op" character as him, but often don't pick him, simply because he is boring.

100% the reason why I play Wigfrid over him. I'm very aware that overall she's a much weaker character than Wolfgang, but she's so much more than just "do more damage".

Hopefully his rework will make him a lot more fun to play.

[Well-met]

5 hours ago, Pinegrove said:

My current opinion of Wolfgang is that he needs more to him. Right now, he is a semi broken character with meaningless downsides. People have the choice to play an "op" character as him, but often don't pick him, simply because he is boring. I'm eagerly looking forward to what his rework will bring, mechanic-wise and lore-wise, since we know so little about his story.

If we learned anything from the wig rework is Klei won't touch his perks and simply add an extra layer ontop of it

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

Because you said you shouldn't consider all the variables/scenarios, right here:

You should consider every kind of player and every kind of scenario that makes up the heterogenous DST experience rather than alienating "unskilled players" or throwing pub-related scenarios out the window when considering balances. That's all I was trying to say in response to your previous comment.

The solo DST experience is in my opinion unchallenging and uninteresting, hence my hyperbolic statement about every character including Wes being "OP", but that wasn't the point. My point was that by the same tunnel-vision logic, I should support a character-wide nerf to everyone as a way of "rebalancing" the solo DST meta, even though this would almost certainly ruin the fun for other players in other non-solo situations. 

Isnt throwing out the window pubs. Is just that people who dont know how to play well have other characters to play with. In terms of balance, in any game, what is take inconsideration is what a good player (not even a pro or veteran) can reach with it and keeping mighty form isnt difficult playing alone or with many people

[Pine G]

42 minutes ago, Well-met said:

If we learned anything from the wig rework is Klei won't touch his perks and simply add an extra layer ontop of it

I disagree. The reason why Wigfrid's rework did not change her fundamentally is because she was already a very balanced character, having both a useful upside and a meaningful downside. The forum specifically asked the developers not to change her too much. 

[Notecja]

1 hour ago, Pinegrove said:

The forum specifically asked the developers not to change her too much

And later the forum was disappointed she wasn't changed.

[Pine G]

52 minutes ago, Notecja said:

And later the forum was disappointed she wasn't changed.

There's always people who will complain, I suppose. I admit that I expected something more as well after seeing what the other reworks had to offer, but my final opinion is that it's just right. One more tweak and the whole forum would be on fire because they "made her too strong" or "ruined her".

[ZTheNecromancer]

1 hour ago, Notecja said:

And later the forum was disappointed she wasn't changed.

People will find a reason to complain about everything, most of the time it's for the worst. Like that time people complained about how the wood was stacked and cut during a slow TV firewood broadcast. Where they cut the wood, stacked it and then burned it. So yes, they'll do anything to complain about everything.

"Ah, humanity, it's a trainwreck. But I can't look away." - Forgot where the quote came from.

[Toros]

15 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

Because you said you shouldn't consider all the variables/scenarios, right here:

You should consider every kind of player and every kind of scenario that makes up the heterogenous DST experience rather than alienating "unskilled players" or throwing pub-related scenarios out the window when considering balances. That's all I was trying to say in response to your previous comment.

The part of my post you quoted was accurate and doesn't say at all what you claim it says.

Newbie pub servers have a dramatically different meta and engage with only a small fraction of the content of the game.  I said I don't consider the low skilled pub "much" which is very different than not at all.

I used to be bad at this game.  When I started playing, there were no guides and the wiki was full of mistakes, so I had to learn everything by trial and error and make all the classic newbie mistakes in singleplayer.  Basing by beefalo and getting beat up when they went into heat?  I did it.  Basing in dumb spots?  Many times.  Dying to darkness?  Of course.  I don't look down on new players for being bad at the game, I still remember being there.

But players at that level don't need to be considered if someone thinks Fuelweaver is too difficult a fight, because they aren't yet able to complete any of the prerequisite content to even fight Fuelweaver.

Similarly, many new players consider Wolfgang to be overrated and that's true for their skill level and the narrow fraction of the game they experience.

But I don't consider that small fraction of the game to be representative of the whole, and weight their circumstances accordingly.

16 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

The solo DST experience is in my opinion unchallenging and uninteresting, hence my hyperbolic statement about every character including Wes being "OP", but that wasn't the point. My point was that by the same tunnel-vision logic, I should support a character-wide nerf to everyone as a way of "rebalancing" the solo DST meta, even though this would almost certainly ruin the fun for other players in other non-solo situations. 

Other than playing on pubs with people who effectively need babysitting to survive, I don't see how playing solo is easier than playing on a team.  There are many powerful character synergies and players being able to revive each other makes it much harder to have everyone die.

Your comment about Wes being OP and needing a nerf would only qualify as hyperbole if some part of that statement was true.  From what I can tell, you simply said something you don't believe at all because you thought I was dismissing the experiences of unskilled players.  That's not a productive strategy for discussion.

Again, I've been involved in this community not just since DST was in beta, but since DS itself was in beta.  I used to argue with people on these forums who said that adding multiplayer would ruin the experience.  When I started playing it was a milestone to save up enough research points to get a backpack and one time playing I spent all my time getting research points so I was starving by the time I finally unlocked the backpack and then died.

It is super important that DST doesn't eliminate all the more intuitive and easy strategies because while everyone starts off new and unskilled, the game needs to be fun enough that they stick with it because there's so much they aren't able to experience until they improve.  I've also argued for years that while you can make a pretty logical character tier list, every character is viable and absolutely no one should be shamed for playing a "low-tier" character.

I care a lot about the new player experience, but it's important to understand where their experience is relevant, and where it is not.  When it comes to Wolfgang being overrated or OP, new player experience is not relevant.

[Rinkusan]

 

1 hour ago, Toros said:

The part of my post you quoted was accurate and doesn't say at all what you claim it says.

Newbie pub servers have a dramatically different meta and engage with only a small fraction of the content of the game.  I said I don't consider the low skilled pub "much" which is very different than not at all.

"Newbie pubs" absolutely engage with a small fraction of the game's content. All pubs though? Not at all. There are many pubs that end up engaging with most of the game's content, whether it's the ocean, the raid bosses, and/or the ruins, and even if there weren't, you absolutely should consider "low skilled pubs" significantly as you would with a typical pub, a typical solo run, an experienced pub/solo run, etc. 

My broader point is that there is zero reason to devalue players based on skill or certain scenarios based on self-preference, let alone an entire, extremely common high-player-count pub experience with its own unique meta and diversity of scenarios. It's also inaccurate  to say that pubs are an entirely different game; whether it's a private solo/duo or a pub game with different metas, they are all the same game. They are all DST.  

1 hour ago, Toros said:

But players at that level don't need to be considered if someone thinks Fuelweaver is too difficult a fight, because they aren't yet able to complete any of the prerequisite content to even fight Fuelweaver.

I disagree; every player should be considered as well as the purpose of the content. Keep in mind we're talking about characters whose changes affect every single DST player. What I'm disputing is your tunnel-visioned consideration of a single meta and devaluing of newbies as inconsequential when it comes to the broader topic of balancing/rebalancing "OP" characters. 

There's plenty of nuance to be had when it comes to balancing or rebalancing certain aspects of the game, and you will inevitably run into difficult situations where a balancing choice makes one group's gaming experience more fun at the expense of the other. What I'm trying to say is that rebalancing decisions, or any decision for that matter, should absolutely not devalue/sideline the newbie experience or the pub meta ALONG with the long-time player experience or the solo meta; as many DST experiences/scenarios should be considered as possible. Even in your fuelweaver example, you're clearly considering newbie players by mentioning that the boss is locked behind content that new players generally aren't able to overcome. 

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Similarly, many new players consider Wolfgang to be overrated and that's true for their skill level and the narrow fraction of the game they experience.

But I don't consider that small fraction of the game to be representative of the whole, and weight their circumstances accordingly.

I completely disagree with this. Context matters; in a world where it's just you and one other person, of course Wolfgang's hunger downside is trivial because there's way more food in the wilderness to go around. The more people there are though, the less food to go around; the closer to carrying capacity your world gets; and the more of an impact Wolfgang's hunger has on everyone else.  

Do we have the statistics to validate this? I don't see how pubs are a "small fraction of the game" by any means. 
 

2 hours ago, Toros said:

Other than playing on pubs with people who effectively need babysitting to survive, I don't see how playing solo is easier than playing on a team.  There are many powerful character synergies and players being able to revive each other makes it much harder to have everyone die.

Your comment about Wes being OP and needing a nerf would only qualify as hyperbole if some part of that statement was true.  From what I can tell, you simply said something you don't believe at all because you thought I was dismissing the experiences of unskilled players.  That's not a productive strategy for discussion.

Again, I've been involved in this community not just since DST was in beta, but since DS itself was in beta.  I used to argue with people on these forums who said that adding multiplayer would ruin the experience.  When I started playing it was a milestone to save up enough research points to get a backpack and one time playing I spent all my time getting research points so I was starving by the time I finally unlocked the backpack and then died.

That is not what I said. I just said that I find the solo DST experience unchallenging and uninteresting, and by the same tunnel-visioning we-should-sideline-the-pub-meta logic you are employing, I would be advocating for a nerf across every single DST character including Wes so that the solo DST meta is "balanced" in my eyes. But I'm not because the solo/duo/trio/whatever meta is FAR from the only thing that matters when it comes to character balancing/rebalancing, and doing so would undoubtedly ruin the fun of players other than myself. 

Part of that statement was true though; specifically, I think Wes is ridiculously easy to play with in solo DST because I think the entirety of solo DST is unchallenging, hence the hyperbole that he's "OP". But again, the hyperbole is irrelevant to my broader point about considering and valuing things beyond the stuff that you personally prefer; the solo/duo meta isn't the only thing that matters, and the long-time player experience isn't the only thing that matters, especially when it comes to character balancing. 

I appreciate that you are a long-time player of a game that we all mutually enjoy. But why is this relevant to what we're talking about? 

2 hours ago, Toros said:

I care a lot about the new player experience, but it's important to understand where their experience is relevant, and where it is not.  When it comes to Wolfgang being overrated or OP, new player experience is not relevant.

I agree; it is absolutely important to understand where the newbie experience is relevant and where it is not, which is wildly different from not considering newbies outright. The thing is that Wolfgang being overrated IS one of those situations where the newbie experience is very relevant, much like how the long-time player experience, the solo player experience, the pub player experience, etc. is ALSO relevant, not only because "overrated" is inherently subjective but because rebalancing decisions based off of those opinionated discussions will affect everyone's DST experience with the character.  

Do I personally think Wolfgang is overrated? No. Do I think Wolfgang's hunger downside is more potent in large pub servers than a solo server? Yep. Do I think this potency in a non-solo context, along with the consequences towards newbies and long-time players alike, should at the bare minimum be considered when rebalancing the character? Absolutely 100%. I am down with welcoming well-thought-out nerfs and making DST a more challenging, unforgiving, and fun game; I am not down with devaluing any player let alone newbies.

[Mithrandir34]

On 12/6/2020 at 12:24 AM, ZombieDupe said:

I hear lots of people say he is one of the top characters. I don't see how that is the case, because dealing double the damage and having a slight speed boost, but only when having near full hunger is not that much compared to other characters. I don't really understand why it stands out so much to certain players. If he had dealt tripple the damage and double with average hunger that would seem more impressive because 2 players with other characters and canes can match this no problem. Having basically no downside I guess makes him more powerful overall, but hunger is something you need to keep in mind when playing as him. It is usually not a problem, but at times food can run out pretty quickly. Playing on your own makes him more of a boss rushing character, but in a group, there is nothing special you can do with him. When his rework comes about, his downside could be something like having low maximum sanity and if he is low on sanity he would freak out when attacked by monsters, which would stun him at times when not hit as that would match his trait of being scared of monsters. With decent power he could bring down individual opponents very easy, but would not do so good against a swarm. Wigfrid deals less damage but I see less players take Wolfgang because of easy helmets as pig skin is hard to come by and everyone needs armor.

Wolfgang is the best character after the Wortox to me but probably Klei will nerf Wolfgang just like the Wickerbottom.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Mithrandir34 said:

Wolfgang is the best character after the Wortox to me but probably Klei will nerf Wolfgang just like the Wickerbottom.

Wicker's nerf was more a rebalance for the new garden system they're putting in - note they reverted her limit for grass / twigs, its only food stuffs where they limit her books.  Its also still pretty strong because food has several stages of growth and no other way to speed them up (unlike buckets of poop with previous farms) while Wicker takes them instantly to harvest level so its hard to call it a nerf.

We haven't seen Wicker's rework - so far most characters have only received buffs and changes that make them more fun to play.  I doubt Klei has a mind to "nerf" anything, only change it to make it more interesting and fun to play.  And lets be honest - strong or not - fun to play is what really matters.  Many people agree Wolfgang is very strong but many people don't play him because his play pattern doesn't give you more to do, in fact it kinda gives you less to do since you're stomping bosses and other mobs so quick you barely get to enjoy the fight lol