TheMule Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 7 hours ago, simonchvz said: I've found it's generally more efficient to go the other way and heat the steam up using an AT. It it for sure. Especially if you do this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 21 hours ago, ExEvolution said: build tempshift plates out of ice No: tempshift plates made out of ice create heat because the plate has 1/5th as much mass as the ice it is made from, so it takes much less heat to melt the plate than you had to pull out to make the ice in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExEvolution Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 19 minutes ago, psusi said: No: tempshift plates made out of ice create heat because the plate has 1/5th as much mass as the ice it is made from, so it takes much less heat to melt the plate than you had to pull out to make the ice in the first place. First of all, who said anything about making ice, most maps have tons of it that you can easily melt for free water and free cooling. And where are you getting that it has 1/5 the mass as the ice it takes to make it. It takes 800kg ice and a tempshift plate is still 800kg after construction and remains as 800kg water after melting Second, it only creates heat because the SHC changes when melting, this effectively just reduces the amount of cold you can store below freezing, and once it is melted, it is still ~1 degree water, and will literally cool any area you melt it in. A few tempshift plates can soak up a ton of heat, then you can just mop up the puddles and dump the bottles somewhere else to relocate the heat that was collected in the water. And remember, water has very high SHC so it is very effective at holding heat within its temperature ranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 3 hours ago, ExEvolution said: It takes 800kg ice and a tempshift plate is still 800kg after construction and remains as 800kg water after melting Don't forget 50% loss for mining the ice, wouldn't it be more effective to melt the ice directly instead of digging it up for temp shift plates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve8 Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 25 minutes ago, Neotuck said: Don't forget 50% loss for mining the ice It doesn't matter. By the time you run out of ice you can tame hot geysers And the point of using ice temp shift plates is that they allow you to easily transport cold to where you need it. Like a pool of water or crops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExEvolution Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Yeah but that doesn't matter, water is easy to get, frozen water is very useful but more difficult to get. You could melt the ice in place if you really need the water more than the cold, but geysers make conserving ice to double the water you get out of it pretty pointless. The free cooling for areas that need it far outweighs losing a little of the most renewable resource in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, Steve8 said: It doesn't matter. By the time you run out of ice you can tame hot geysers And the point of using ice temp shift plates is that they allow you to easily transport cold to where you need it. Like a pool of water or crops Just now, ExEvolution said: Yeah but that doesn't matter, water is easy to get, frozen water is very useful but more difficult to get. You could melt the ice in place if you really need the water more than the cold, but geysers make conserving ice to double the water you get out of it pretty pointless. The free cooling for areas that need it far outways losing a little of the most renewable resource in the game. Both ways can work, it depends on what recourses are available on the map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelphiTsar Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 1 hour ago, ExEvolution said: Yeah but that doesn't matter, water is easy to get, frozen water is very useful but more difficult to get. You could melt the ice in place if you really need the water more than the cold, but geysers make conserving ice to double the water you get out of it pretty pointless. The free cooling for areas that need it far outweighs losing a little of the most renewable resource in the game. Halfing the mass also means half the cooling potential. Not saying it's not a pain, but it's more beneficial than just conserving water alone. If you say, ran a pipe through a cold biom. It'd provide twice as much cooling as mining/moving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve8 Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 It really doesn't matter. It's still plenty of cooling. We aren't talking about industrial applications here. You don't have to min/max everything. And sometimes you don't need constant cooling. Or running a pipe long distance may be a lot of work and not worth the effort in a particular situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExEvolution Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Just now, DelphiTsar said: Halfing the mass also means half the cooling potential. Not saying it's not a pain, but it's more beneficial than just conserving water alone. The cold is there to be used, use it to make progression easier. Can I make a suggestion? Try digging up the whole map as soon as you get access to atmosuits. Resource deposits are just there to take up space that gets in the way of building. You can't use them until you dig them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelphiTsar Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 I am not advocating for digging or not digging exclusively. I am just mentioning halving the mass halves the cooling potential which is relevant when evaluating what you want to do with it. Maybe you are new and have trouble taming hot water, no cooler vents. Having heat problems nearby an ice biome and can mitigate both issues for longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 17 hours ago, ExEvolution said: First of all, who said anything about making ice, most maps have tons of it that you can easily melt for free water and free cooling Yes, but you will get much more cooling by NOT turning it into a tempshift plate. 17 hours ago, ExEvolution said: And where are you getting that it has 1/5 the mass as the ice it takes to make it. It takes 800kg ice and a tempshift plate is still 800kg after construction and remains as 800kg water after melting It's a building. All buildings count as 1/5th of their mass for thermal calculations. 17 hours ago, ExEvolution said: Second, it only creates heat because the SHC changes when melting, Nope; it creates heat because when in building form, it loses 4/5ths of its SHC. If you need cooling quick and don't care about wasting some of the potential cooling, sure, make a tempshift plate... just know that you are wasting a chunk of potential cooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMule Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 19 hours ago, ExEvolution said: It takes 800kg ice and a tempshift plate is still 800kg after construction and remains as 800kg water after melting From here https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/100121-heat-transfer-equations/ Quote Buildings have 1/5 the HC they "should" have, relevant when they are the hotter material or in determining new temperatures. Buildings include pipes, wires, generators, etc. but not built tiles. Shiftplates count as buildings. So when heating up a ice shiftplate from -10C to 0C, the amount of heat needed is computed for 160kg and not for 800kg. Edit: anyway, dumping hot water (like 95C from a tamer or a geyers) into frozen biomes is a effective way to get a lot of lukewarm water, as cold water from ice mixes with hot water. It's not sustainable but OP asked about midgame, not endgame. Melting all the ice biomes using water from hot geyers / steam vents can be a totally viable and profitable project for midgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve8 Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 1 hour ago, psusi said: If you need cooling quick and don't care about wasting some of the potential cooling But why does this matter when actually playing the game? It's just theoretical nonsense. The map is huge and all is needed here is some temporary solutions until more advanced materials and methods are available later. "Wasting" some ice or cooling here and there is completely irrelevant for the things we are talking about here At a practical level the limit of temp shift plates is more about the work they take to build. They work well when you need as little cooling now and then for relatively small amounts of warm/hot water. For very large volumes melting ice biomes becomes attractive not so much because you get more water out of it or because it provides more cooling, but because it's easier at that scale. It all depends on what you need exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExEvolution Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 So you lose 32,800 kDTU of potential cooling by using a temp shift in exchange for easy, localized cooling. Once it melts, you're still cooling at the full capacity of water because by that logic, once it melts it is no longer a building. I'm still of the camp that none of that matters when you need to cool down your farms because heat creeped in from nearby in the early to mid game Building a non-permanent cooling loop crossing the map just doesn't seem worth the effort to me when I can just place a couple tempshift plates where ever I need them, on demand. It is more than enough to tide you over until you build your infrastructure for cooling with aquatuners and steam turbines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 @Szczuku "How to cool down water early/mid-game" There is many ideas and solutions, this is one of many possible...Aquatuner & Hydrogen. Don`t hesitate to use some bicycle dupes to run a Aquatuner. Have the Aquatuner in Hydrogen ( Electrolyzer produces: Oxygen & Hydrogen...or use a Hydrogen Geysir if in your world ) and make sure the Aquatuner is in enough kg/cell of Hydrogen, so that it does not overheat - The Hydrogen will soak up the Aquatuner heat and Hydrogen always goes to the top of the map. Digging a tunnel to the top of the map with a width of 3 cells takes a bit, make sure to not dig in to Regolith at the top of the map, otherwise your colony is cluttered up with tons of falling down hot Regolith and your colony is doomed. You can vent the hot Hydrogen out to space, or directly burn the hot Hydrogen with a Hydrogen Power Generator - So you don`t waste the Hydrogen. You can also have power generators and other machinery standing in Hydrogen, the gas will suck up the heat well. Maybe this all sounds complicated, but its really basic. On all my colonies I started in similar ways. You will fail on some things as you experiment and with your experienced fails you will learn more about the game. Hydrogen is an excellent carrier of temperature. The Aquatuner uses a lot of energy, have the bicycles dedicated connected with the Aquatuner, to avoid colony power grid collapse. Put the Aquatuner in a dedicated room with 2-3 cells thick of insulated cells, its gets very hot - Make sure its in lots of Hydrogen. Use I.Rock to build a room, it insulates well and is available early in the game. Cracked pipes: If you experience cracked pipes, you will find lots of help in this forum or on Utube about that problem. With your cool steam vent(s) - Some help is in this link: https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Cool_Steam_Vent https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Thermo_Aquatuner https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Hydrogen_Generator Good luck, happy ONi Babba ----------- P.S. You also mentioned the AETN, my ice factory took me 1000 cycles in survival to complete - Not early game haha ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 On 10/29/2020 at 12:37 PM, ExEvolution said: Building a non-permanent cooling loop crossing the map just doesn't seem worth the effort to me when I can just place a couple tempshift plates where ever I need them, on demand. It is more than enough to tide you over until you build your infrastructure for cooling with aquatuners and steam turbines. I'm not saying don't use ice; I'm saying just put the ice where you need the cooling in a storage bin instead of building a tempshift plate. It will cool the area more than the plate, and you don't have to have a full 800kg needed to make the place. 100kg is usually enough to cool off a farm room and is both easy to make with an ice maker, and easy to mop up when it melts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BENBUZZ790 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Mine and sweep an ice biome and set up an automatic dispenser to drop the ice & snow into your water storage tank. This is a dead simple early game tactic. If your water tank is right in the middle of your base, this will keep your base cool too. Another bonus is that water won't get everywhere when the ice melts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabberworld Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 what you can also todo is build vacuum room between your AETN and other world, for increase maximum efficiency from AETN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoakenashi Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 For early game, before ice biome and aquatuner, you can use ice maker and ice-e fan. I had to use this on the one map where everything was over 30 degC. Couldn’t grow mealwood otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 29 minutes ago, yoakenashi said: For early game, before ice biome and aquatuner, you can use ice maker and ice-e fan. I had to use this on the one map where everything was over 30 degC. Couldn’t grow mealwood otherwise. I have done that as well. It is tedious because it requires a lot of manual work, but it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsabo Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 On 10/31/2020 at 2:40 AM, psusi said: I'm not saying don't use ice; I'm saying just put the ice where you need the cooling in a storage bin instead of building a tempshift plate. It will cool the area more than the plate, and you don't have to have a full 800kg needed to make the place. 100kg is usually enough to cool off a farm room and is both easy to make with an ice maker, and easy to mop up when it melts. In my experience this doesn't work. At all. Temperature transfer from the environment to debris is ludicrously slow. Temperature transfer from the environment to stored debris... well, I don't know it it's even slower still, I will leave the say on that to bigger ONI brains than me; all I can say is I've had a storage bin full of ice backed by tempshift plates sit at 32 degrees in the corner of my farm for +200 cycles and not one drop of melting, it seems to be no help at all. Building tempshift plates out of the ice might be less efficient, but the efficiency of an infinitesimally slow process is a moot point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urist McPilot Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 10 hours ago, Tsabo said: a storage bin full of ice You mean literally full? 20 tons of ice need an extreme amount of heat to melt, and will produce 20 tiles of water in the end. If you limit the bin to 100kg, it melts in 1-2 cycles, and produces a manageable amount of water. Certainly much slower than an ice tempshift plate, but it works. Another trick that might help is that after the ice is delivered to the bin, remove it from the list of allowed materials to have it dropped on the ground. This way it will also take some heat from the tile. Dropping it on the ground doesn't actually help, stuff within the bin transfers heat with the tile the bin is standing on in the same way as debris on the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 I find creating ice a good emergency backup plan. Without some emergency ice at hand my colony would have been extinct many times. Here are placed ice basins in a map area where I have not yet installed air conditioning. It used to really save me in the colony beginning and currently I still use it to keep the average temp down in some zones. In the beginning of a colony it can be great to melt ice ( let hot stuff run over non-mined ice blocks to avoid mass decrease caused by manual digging ) and to keep the farmed cold water in a basin for emergency times. It took me 1000 cycles in survival to build a ice factory - Its so valuable to have one Screenshot below: This geysir emitts water at -10 celsius. A life saver and good starting point for cooling solutions. My colonies life depended on this geysir so many times. This geysir was the foundation and lifeline of my colony, especially in the humble beginnings. The AETN close by was the jackpot for me...Took the first 500 cycles or so until I connected it with hydrogen. If you find an AETN in the map, try to connect it soon. It will cool anything around it down and it costs little hydrogen feeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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