Why i think reworked Woodie is more balanced than we thought at first

[JosePapp]

When Woodie's rework initially came out, i thought, like many others, that Woodie was sort of in the overpowered side. Heck, i even made a thread suggesting different ways his transformations could get forced onto people by different actions to sort of make him have more of a downside. But then it hit me, maybe he DOES have downsides, it's just that they're not obvious downsides or highly noticeable like Warly's pickiness, Wes' existence or Wormwood's lack of food heals.

Here's what i mean:

Woodie no longer has much of a downside that affects his human form besides from the doubled treeguard spawn (which many experienced players consider an upside rather) and while this technically makes him "better Wilson with an axe" his rough edges start showing when you start transforming:

• Every transformation (considering you're using totems) costs 20 health and 15 sanity to boot.
• cursed Woodie drains sanity at an amount almost comparable to the Tam o Shanter (which restores 6.7 p/m according to wiki) draining -6 p/m.
• When Woodie ceases to be transformed, he's immediately starving, meaning that even the most prepared of players is bound to take AT LEAST 1-4 starving damage (on top of the native idol damage i mentioned above)
• Though unlikely, he can't binge eat monster foods in a pinch since that would force him into a random transformation (which tends to be undesirable).
• Random transformations also occur at a full moon no matter what, though one can prepare and eat a desired idol right before night hits.

This is without taking into account the quirks of each transformation (moose has great power and defense but is slow and can't heal by himself without jellybeans or a Wortox; Goose can't harvest or do anything but run; werebeaver can't collect his farmed items until he's back to human form; whenever Woodie dies he stays transformed, most likely causing starvation at ressurrection) really hones in the point that Woodie's upsides are not without consequences, but rather that his downsides only come as a direct consequence of using his powers. And even if you were to tell me that you would never transform or chop that much and that it makes him just a better Wilson, then what would be the point of playing as him?

What d'yall think

 

 

Extra notes:

• I know insanity isn't a problem to most players, but it can be annoying even for the more experienced players during a boss fight or a farming session, not to mention new players lose their monkeys at insanity.
• I'm sorry i disrespected Wes, o' Wes worshipers.

 

[Mike23Ua]

I agree with everything you said here about Woodie except the bottom line about Wes- Wes has to bring an actual impactful perk to a team that shows his usefulness or else I will ALWAYS Ban him out my servers.

But yes Woodie has downsides, and as I mentioned in another post if you know how to deal with a characters downsides then they will feel overpowered to you, doesn’t mean they don’t still have downsides that other players still struggle with though.

[Owlrust]

I still personally think that a good weapon and a marble suit outclasses the Weremoose almost entirely except for when you need AoE damage. Since day one of his rework I didn't think that he needed higher damage absorbtion, instead I thought that it should give the Weremoose a temporary health increase instead; that would certainly make me want to use his form more often for better tanking (unless you have jellybeans you're, at most ,working with 130 health at any point).

[ArubaroBeefalo]

he is the kind of character that doesnt matter to dont have a downside 24/7 because is fun and also

he is so strong but nothing that breaks the game. 

Pd, having perma beard is a little downside in summer and vs klaus

[Hornete]

people thought he was overpowered? wtf

[Viktor234]

10 minutes ago, Hornete said:

people thought he was overpowered? wtf

Forumers judge the power of characters depending on their disadvantages: Woodie is OP, Wortox on the other hand is even worse than Wes.

[Pixil]

2 hours ago, JosePapp said:

can't heal by himself without jellybeans or a Wortox

One of the lesser known things about Woodie that I discovered a couple months back on a Starving Floor server is that his were-forms can be healed by other players using honey poultice, spider glands, and healing salves! In the midst of battle you're going to want a safer source of healing though...

[Cheggf]

Who would think he's overpowered? He's decent at farming groups of enemies, decent at rushing the ruins, and the second best lumberjack. A generalist that excels in no areas. I'd say he's in a pretty good spot, pretty fun to play.

2 hours ago, JosePapp said:

moose has great power and defense but is slow and can't heal by himself without jellybeans

"Great power and defense" isn't quite right. Weremoose has similar/identical defense to Woodie's normal form and loses power, unless it's against a large group of enemies. Weremoose can't heal, does less damage, doesn't really gain much defense and could potentially lose it, can't pick up items, injures you to transform (which combined with the inability to heal make you considerably more fragile than you would be even in weaker armour than Weremoose), drains your sanity, empties your hunger, moves slow, and untransforms after awhile which could potentially put you in a bad situation. It's a pretty niche form that's mostly useful for farming decent sized groups of enemies or rushing ruins.

2 hours ago, JosePapp said:

Goose can't harvest or do anything but run

Goose also takes time to gather the ingredients to craft it, time to transform, and time to untransform. Unless you're going a very far distance it'd probably be faster to just walk, especially once you get a walking cane since that's almost as fast. I'd say this form is also pretty niche and mostly used for rushing ruins or lunar.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

48 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Goose also takes time to gather the ingredients to craft it, time to transform, and time to untransform. Unless you're going a very far distance it'd probably be faster to just walk, especially once you get a walking cane since that's almost as fast. I'd say this form is also pretty niche and mostly used for rushing ruins or lunar

in late isnt that bad when you can store idols in bundle wraps. I sometimes use it to go to far distances or to look after klaus sack

also being able to make fast travels to gather glass or to help Pearl is useful

[Primalflower]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wes has to bring an actual impactful perk to a team that shows his usefulness or else I will ALWAYS Ban him out my servers

The weses you ban from your servers could possibly be the most experienced and most valubale assets to your teams....with wes more than anything it is about what the player accomplishes with their character much more than anything the player has by default. A wendy or wickerbottom has the full capability to just sit around all day and do nothing useful while a wes is capable of defeating the fuelweaver singlehandedly.

[ryvrdrgn14]

Woodie is pretty good at specific tasks thanks to his perks. The best part about Woodie is that he can do all of these things as one character.

• Weremoose - AOE farming with charge. Also possible to clear Spider Queens if you start the charge close enough and end up out of range of her attacks. Great for Frog Rain, Spiders, Hounds, etc.
• Werebeaver - Great if you set up a forest to chop or clear out a rock biome fortress that has all the rocks bunched up together. This saves so much time chopping down trees.
• Weregoose - Explore map, quick trips to Lunar, crossing water to get from one biome to another if there are no wormholes, caves exploration thanks to werevision. 
• Lucy - Treeguard spawner, saves you on flint/time early game and is enough to let you clear T1 spider nests, quick and easy birchnuts to eat. Sure, it's not as good as Wormwood's ability, but you can heal from Pierogi.
• Beard - Extra insulation still helps in winter.

As for starvation, Honey lasts 40 days on its own and stacks up to 40. Put a fridge or chest near your touchstone/amulet and carry some to solve any hunger issues in a pinch. Honey can also be turned into Taffy for sanity boosts if you just add a Twig so a nearby crockpot can help solve all issues after transformation. You do not even need a lot of honey for an emergency. 6-12 honey in a chest/freezer should be enough to get by as an emergency stash. Eat 6 honey for hunger, make a couple of taffies then you're good to go. You can leave some spider glands or whatever non-perishable healing items in there as well.

Woodie is also still perfectly capable of fighting as a normal character. He can solve so many problems on his own.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

And honey nugges have a increase hunger value on him which makes them worth it

[ryvrdrgn14]

50 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

And honey nugges have a increase hunger value on him which makes them worth it

You can make it with 1 monster meat, 1 honey and 2 ice, right? It's a good alternative meal to meatballs for Woodie if he just needs to top up some health and sanity while filling his hunger.

[prezera]

12 hours ago, Owlrus said:

I still personally think that a good weapon and a marble suit outclasses the Weremoose almost entirely

By that logic pierogi's outclass wortox's heal too. 

Your not always going to have marble suits and a good weapon at hand, and even if you do, it's always better to save them if your going to be fighting something like tentacles.

[ryvrdrgn14]

2 minutes ago, PrezPara said:

By that logic pierogi's outclass wortox's heal too. 

Your not always going to have marble suits and a good weapon at hand, and even if you do, it's always better to save them if your going to be fighting something like tentacles.

I agree. Wearing a marble suit does not allow my character to mow down a horde of Shadow Splumonkeys.

[prezera]

1 minute ago, ryvrdrgn14 said:

I agree. Wearing a marble suit does not allow my character to mow down a horde of Shadow Splumonkeys.

To be fair he did say "except when when you need AoE damage". I just don't think it was fair of him to compare 3 monster meat and 2 grass to a couple marble suits you have to wait ages to grow and a hambat.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 minutes ago, ryvrdrgn14 said:

You can make it with 1 monster meat, 1 honey and 2 ice, right? It's a good alternative meal to meatballs for Woodie if he just needs to top up some health and sanity while filling his hunger.

1 meat + 1 honey. I think ice works

 

[ryvrdrgn14]

6 minutes ago, PrezPara said:

To be fair he did say "except when when you need AoE damage". I just don't think it was fair of him to compare 3 monster meat and 2 grass to a couple marble suits you have to wait ages to grow and a hambat.

Excluding the ability to do AOE in the first place was pointless. It just served to gut the ability in order to compare it to a simple marble suit and hambat, which is the problem to begin. It's along the lines of "If we pretend this didn't exist, then this sucks."

Woodie can wear a marble suit and use a hambat to fight and heal with pierogi and he has the option to change into a weremoose to do AOE. It's not like Woodie can't use armor and weapons. He has the benefits of both since he isn't gimped in combat in terms of health or damage output.

[prezera]

3 minutes ago, ryvrdrgn14 said:

Excluding the ability to do AOE in the first place was pointless. It just served to gut the ability in order to compare it to a simple marble suit and hambat, which is the problem to begin. It's along the lines of "If we pretend this didn't exist, then this sucks."

I also think he excluded it because you will probably never need the aoe attack for any bosses, but what your saying is true.

[ryvrdrgn14]

2 minutes ago, PrezPara said:

I also think he excluded it because you will probably never need the aoe attack for any bosses, but what your saying is true.

I mean if we're just talking bosses, Wolfgang, Wickerbottom and Winona exist so I'm not even gonna try to compete in that area with a character like Woodie.

[MondayNight]

Woodie is fine. Personally would have preferred if original transformation wasn't broken into 3 adjacent mechanics, but instead re-work made Beaver more sturdy (better innate armor and damage) plus being able to swim at a speed around 1/2-2/3 of current Goose; yet it is what it is. As OP wrote, the 3 forms are fairly balanced for their intended purposes.

 

13 hours ago, Lbphero said:

The weses you ban from your servers could possibly be the most experienced and most valubale assets to your teams....with wes more than anything it is about what the player accomplishes with their character much more than anything the player has by default. A wendy or wickerbottom has the full capability to just sit around all day and do nothing useful while a wes is capable of defeating the fuelweaver singlehandedly.

It's "your world, your rules" - one can do on a personal/owned-dedicated server whatever one fancies. Sure it won't be nice - quite the opposite - if doing shenanigans or straight-up banning random players for whatever reasons, however is their server/their game and it doesn't matter if banned player was a noob, pro or anything in between, regardless of chosen character. And, to be frank, most pub Wes players pick him "for the luls" and trolling, being mediocre at best (hence why a penalty/liability on the team, if "we, as team" was server's goal).

[1bubbainpa]

22 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

Forumers judge the power of characters depending on their disadvantages: Woodie is OP, Wortox on the other hand is even worse than Wes.

Wait, who says that Wortox is worse than Wes?

Like I really want to see how people can even explain this.

[Primalflower]

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

most

 

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, 1bubbainpa said:

Wait, who besides Mike says that Wortox is worse than Wes?

Like I really want to see how people can even explain this.

I never EVER said Wortox is worse then Wes.. Wortox is the most OP character in the entire game.. even MORE so then Wendy.

And now here’s the thing people fail to understand I guess- How good or how bad a character is for someone will be entirely dependent of that characters skills PLUS how good or bad the PLAYER is with that particular character.

And for Me and my skill level with him personally- Wortox is the most OP thing ever created..

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I never EVER said Wortox is worse then Wes.. Wortox is the most OP character in the entire game.. even MORE so then Wendy.

And now here’s the thing people fail to understand I guess- How good or how bad a character is for someone will be entirely dependent of that characters skills PLUS how good or bad the PLAYER is with that particular character.

And for Me and my skill level with him personally- Wortox is the most OP thing ever created..

wolfgang go brrrrrr