What is the best up to date SPOM since wheezeworts need phosphorite?

[jfc]

Looking for a new SPOM build 'cause haven't played for ages

[Artorias36]

Not sure if is the best, but this never failed me so far.

[psusi]

 

[jfc]

3 hours ago, Artorias36 said:

Not sure if is the best, but this never failed me so far.

What's the pressure on the atmo sensors?

[my_hat_stinks]

4 hours ago, Artorias36 said:

Not sure if is the best, but this never failed me so far.

If you stick both electrolysers in one room you can save space and resources. You'll need two oxygen pumps and a dedicated oxygen pipe per room, but you still only need one pump for hydrogen:

I imagine it can scale even further, but I've only used two electrolysers per room so far. You don't need the gas sensor I've got. If the hydrogen pipes back up it could reach the bottom section and I was trying to detect that, but the sensor isn't reliable there so it's easier just to make sure the pipe doesn't back up.

1 hour ago, jfc said:

What's the pressure on the atmo sensors?

I use 450 in mine, but it doesn't seem to matter too much. As long as it doesn't clear the top layer of hydrogen it should be fine.

You'll have to run it for a bit after building it to get proper gas separation, but once that's done it should be pretty much maintenance-free.

[Artorias36]

7 hours ago, jfc said:

What's the pressure on the atmo sensors?

Above 800.

[Yoma_Nosme]

8 hours ago, my_hat_stinks said:

 

 

You should run some tests with 100kg of water and check how much h2/o2  you've generated. 

When I stick 2 electrolyzer close together without gap between them or the walls deletion is much greater...

Try 3 tiles wider. with gaps between the electrolyzers and you can even replace the insulated tile under the airlock for a mesh tile for "more space" so gasflow is even better...then run the 100kg test again

[Gurgel]

You can also do without a SPOM. I never use them. I just collect the H2 at the top of my base and cool the electrolyzer output with the water that goes in.

[psusi]

7 hours ago, Gurgel said:

You can also do without a SPOM. I never use them. I just collect the H2 at the top of my base and cool the electrolyzer output with the water that goes in.

That's a little hard to do when the water going in is 95 C

Also you kind of waste cooling on the hydrogen and the O2 can only disperse so far from the electrolyzer without pumping it.

[Gurgel]

1 hour ago, psusi said:

That's a little hard to do when the water going in is 95 C

Also you kind of waste cooling on the hydrogen and the O2 can only disperse so far from the electrolyzer without pumping it.

Dispersion needs a bit of finesse, but it is not really a problem. There is no distance limit or anything. As to cooling, that loss does not matter much. If you find it a concern, just cool only below the electrolyzers and place them near the top of the base. That is the best placement anyways.

[psusi]

16 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Dispersion needs a bit of finesse, but it is not really a problem. There is no distance limit or anything. As to cooling, that loss does not matter much. If you find it a concern, just cool only below the electrolyzers and place them near the top of the base. That is the best placement anyways.

There is no absolute limit, but the further it has to disperse, the slower it moves so you end up over pressurizing the electrolyzer and it doesn't work as much, so you need more of them.  If you are keeping your oxygen at 30 C ( so you can grow plants ) that 95 C hydrogen is going to dump its heat into the oxygen and cool down to 30 C itself, so that's an additional 17,472 DTUs of cooling you need, or about 30 watts you'll need to spend running the AT.  I suppose that's less than what you'd spend running air pumps though and even though you need more electrolyzers, you don't need the pumps.  Hrm... maybe I'll have to try this next world.  You'll need a good cooling loop to keep everything cool though instead of just spreading the cool oxygen around.

 

[lee1026]

Note that the vast majority of oxygen is pumped into suits, where it gets destroyed when dupes consume said oxygen. Since the dupes don't care about how hot the suit oxygen is, cooling oxygen is quite pointless in most cases.

 

The TL;DR is that you should focus your cooling on stuff that cares about being cool, like farms. What temperature oxygen comes out of the SPOM is extremely academic.

[Miravlix]

We have automation that can feed the wort, so I insulated a 3 wort room with room for automation. A perfectly insulated cooling room can handle a filled pipe of O2 passing it and cooling the O2 of an insulated SPOM to around 25c.

 

I fill the room with hydrogen and haven't tested other gasses.

[beowulf2010]

20 minutes ago, Miravlix said:

I fill the room with hydrogen and haven't tested other gasses.

Don't bother. Hydrogen is by far the best gas for Wheezeworts. Natural Gas can a good replacement in certain situations but is 10% worse. No other "room temperature" gas is worth using in dedicated cooling rooms. 

[Gurgel]

11 hours ago, psusi said:

There is no absolute limit, but the further it has to disperse, the slower it moves so you end up over pressurizing the electrolyzer and it doesn't work as much, so you need more of them.  If you are keeping your oxygen at 30 C ( so you can grow plants ) that 95 C hydrogen is going to dump its heat into the oxygen and cool down to 30 C itself, so that's an additional 17,472 DTUs of cooling you need, or about 30 watts you'll need to spend running the AT.  I suppose that's less than what you'd spend running air pumps though and even though you need more electrolyzers, you don't need the pumps.  Hrm... maybe I'll have to try this next world.  You'll need a good cooling loop to keep everything cool though instead of just spreading the cool oxygen around.

It actually works well, but it comes with some nice new challenges. For example, you need to optimize your base for airflow. Took me quite some time to arrive at my current design, so if you want to try something new, I can recommend this. Thermal exchange between oxygen and hydrogen is not much of an issue, gravity separates them nicely. I just cool everything now though, with just one cool water stream. Ends in the electrolyzers, sneaks through the base before. Other designs are certainly possible and viable. 

[psusi]

On 6/12/2020 at 2:10 PM, lee1026 said:

The TL;DR is that you should focus your cooling on stuff that cares about being cool, like farms. What temperature oxygen comes out of the SPOM is extremely academic.

Dupes ( not in atmo suits ) don't much like 70 C oxygen.  Most machines also will overheat and need cooling.

 

[lee1026]

The amount of oxygen that goes into supporting unsuited dupes is usually tiny; at most 20% of their daily oxygen intake of 60kg. With, say, 12 dupes, you are looking at 144kg/cycle of raw oxygen heading in. That is 250 grams per second. At a target temperature of say, 50 degrees, you will be adding about 5KDTU into the system by piping hot oxygen in directly. That is nothing, and the oxygen will insta-cool as it emerges from the pipes. Having whatever cooling system you were going to use on the vent instead of near the source of production will work much, much better.

[psusi]

21 hours ago, lee1026 said:

The amount of oxygen that goes into supporting unsuited dupes is usually tiny; at most 20% of their daily oxygen intake of 60kg. With, say, 12 dupes, you are looking at 144kg/cycle of raw oxygen heading in. That is 250 grams per second. At a target temperature of say, 50 degrees, you will be adding about 5KDTU into the system by piping hot oxygen in directly. That is nothing, and the oxygen will insta-cool as it emerges from the pipes. Having whatever cooling system you were going to use on the vent instead of near the source of production will work much, much better.

I don't normally have my dupes in suits 80% of the time so it's a bit higher for me normally.  My point though, was that if you aren't pumping the oxygen through pipes to cool before releasing it through various vents around your base, then you have to cool the base through other means.  I suppose you could concentrate all of the cooling around the electrolyzers and then let the cool oxygen disperse to keep everything else cool, but one way or another, you need cooling.  Also the more the hot hydrogen can roam around and pass heat to other things, the cooler the hydrogen is going to get before you finally do pump it into generators.  The hotter the hydrogen is when you burn it, the better.

[Glassyfo]

On 6/13/2020 at 3:59 PM, lee1026 said:

The amount of oxygen that goes into supporting unsuited dupes is usually tiny; at most 20% of their daily oxygen intake of 60kg. With, say, 12 dupes, you are looking at 144kg/cycle of raw oxygen heading in. That is 250 grams per second. At a target temperature of say, 50 degrees, you will be adding about 5KDTU into the system by piping hot oxygen in directly. That is nothing, and the oxygen will insta-cool as it emerges from the pipes. Having whatever cooling system you were going to use on the vent instead of near the source of production will work much, much better.

Please stop speaking as if everyone plays like you. It's actually kind of the opposite.

[psusi]

Also now that I think about it again, having cooling at the vent instead of the source is also bad because either you have to use more expensive and negative decor insulated gas pipes, or the hot oxygen is going to cool off as it heats the surrounding area well before it reaches the vent.

[lee1026]

5 hours ago, psusi said:

Also now that I think about it again, having cooling at the vent instead of the source is also bad because either you have to use more expensive and negative decor insulated gas pipes, or the hot oxygen is going to cool off as it heats the surrounding area well before it reaches the vent.

I have certainly never seen anyone talk about the costs of insulating pipes as a major concern, especially as rocks tend to be extremely common on all maps. There is a small negative decor, but it is tiny, especially since it only have a radius of 1, so unless if you are sending the pipes through bedrooms, the overall impact is going to border on unmeasurable since it only impact one tile at a time and only 5 points at a time.

 

Through in general, if you are not suiting up and spreading oxygen all over the map, the net effect of 1kg/s of 70 degree oxygen instead of 20 degrees, about 50KDTU, is going to be really hard to feel; 4 wheezeworts worth of cooling for an entire map really isn't going to be felt in any meaningful way. 50KDTU is 50KDTU; 4 wheezeworts in a metal box somewhere in the base is going to have more impact on cooling compared to 4 wheezeworts on the output pipe of a SPOM, since suit operation is (almost) never at zero.

 

There are more subtle benefits to just cooling the base instead of the oxygen: dupes don't actually overheat until about 70, and neither does the machinery until 75 (or more realistically, 125 with gold anagram, through gold anagram isn't on all maps). The heat that is in the oxygen that the dupes breath is simply destroyed, so the warmer that you run most of the base, the less cooling you have to do. If you concentrate cooling only on the farm to keep it under 30c, you will have to do a less cooling than you might otherwise imagine. For a relatively warm base, there are a lot of other subtle forms of cooling. Critters, for example, are always born at a fixed temperature and essentially destroy any heat that they absorbed over their lifetime when they die. Critters are heavier than they look, and genetic ooze have a pretty high SHC. I ran a base for 1200 cycles until I got bored by relying solely on hatches as cooling. The air coming out were all 95c+, but oxygen just have too little SHC. 

 

I won't be too presumptuous as to how people play, but I have trouble imagining a base such that it is large enough for the cost of running pipes to actually matter and small enough to be adequately cooled by a few pipe of oxygen with its tiny SHC. 

 

A few notes on that base: all hot machinery and geysers were stuffed into turbine controlled hot rooms; I didn't count that as cooling, because that is all power producing and no aquatuners were used. All water used were directly from steam turbine output, so all 95+ fed straight into SPOMs which made 95c+ oxygen. The hatches reset temperature twice: once when born, and once when matured. With two full breeding ranches, this meant that temperature had a hard time really going up.

[Glassyfo]

I prefer to MINIMIZE pipe spaghetti thank you very much.

[lee1026]

Insulating your pipes don't really add to pipe spaghetti...

[Glassyfo]

12 hours ago, lee1026 said:

Insulating your pipes don't really add to pipe spaghetti...

You're mixing me up with psusi.

[sheaker]

On 6/11/2020 at 8:17 AM, Yoma_Nosme said:

You should run some tests with 100kg of water and check how much h2/o2  you've generated.

How much of H2 should I generate?