ArubaroBeefalo Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 7 minutes ago, Shosuko said: That's a bit of a stawman isn't it? You can't enter a public game, without admin, and get god mode. The first speed run on Crab King I saw was Wolfgang using warly food to boost damage, and using ice staff to cancel Crab King freeze attack. Is it wrong to freeze an enemy? Why is it only okay to use staff and not flingo? Both exploit that freezing cancels a monsters attack. If Klei didn't intend these monsters to get frozen they could make them all immune... Cheese is about mechanics too. Its about how monsters, structures, and other things in the world interact and how we can exploit this interaction. Just like "skill ppl" exploit Wolfgang to get 2x damage and speed boost, and exploit Weatherpain to cut sporecaps or woven shadow. The only question is how easy you want to make it. Its entirely subjective. Bottom line is - provided it is something you can do in the game, then its there. Until Klei changes it. ??? Is obvious what is the difference between ice fling an ice staff but i what i mean is that to answer who boss is more difficult is taking in count the minimal gear required and playing as wilson, anything else is altering the answer. you dont need to convice me to use or not use ice flingo, sandbox, do what ever you want but having perma frost bee queen doesnt make her less difficult, being objective, than deerclops or spider queen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeClops Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 23 hours ago, Shosuko said: Because quite frankly [... ] as you wish. I understand that it becomes a matter of how much cheese is too much cheese; personally i do feel there's a difference between the ice staff freezing and the flingo :D, the latter feels much more cheesy. There are certain cheeses i feel are too much and i avoid them, but that is ofcourse a matter of preference and opinion, like for example the glitching out of land before the sea update, which probably still works underground, like firefarms and so on. Everyone has their own cheese line and that's fine, but i don't think that discussing the hardest boss should revolve around pure cheese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terra_Zina Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Anxiety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MondayNight Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Poll's results are pretty much what one would expect: Nr.1) Fw; 2) Toad; 3) BQ (Crab King is still new so more runs are needed from people on it to come with a so-and-so definitive conclusion). As FW is atm the boss-of-bosses default-difficulty wise. And yes, when assessing difficulty in mobs/bosses take-downs one should start from a vanilla normal fighting pov - no cheese or glitches included. As the boss is intended to be fought. But for general final numbers one should factorise most-used strats too - it gives a clearer view on how players actually tackle game's challenges. And from lot regularly handling bosses my suspicion is vast-majority of them are doing said bosses via exploits and/or team work. Because otherwise DF would be in top 3, possibly taking the place of BQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said: Poll's results are pretty much what one would expect: Nr.1) Fw; 2) Toad; 3) BQ (Crab King is still new so more runs are needed from people on it to come with a so-and-so definitive conclusion). As FW is atm the boss-of-bosses default-difficulty wise. And yes, when assessing difficulty in mobs/bosses take-downs one should start from a vanilla normal fighting pov - no cheese or glitches included. As the boss is intended to be fought. But for general final numbers one should factorise most-used strats too - it gives a clearer view on how players actually tackle game's challenges. And from lot regularly handling bosses my suspicion is vast-majority of them are doing said bosses via exploits and/or team work. Because otherwise DF would be in top 3, possibly taking the place of BQ. for me fighting dragonfly without cheese with wilson (Wolfgang can easily kill lavaes one per one with few hits) is more difficult than FW, is easy that something go wrong. Atleast fw is slow and you can manage him baiting his atack but DF has no mercy, she will keep hitting you. try to kite dragonfly with 3 lavae on you doing fire damage and stunlocking you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MondayNight Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 35 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said: for me fighting dragonfly without cheese with wilson (Wolfgang can easily kill lavaes one per one with few hits) is more difficult than FW, is easy that something go wrong. Atleast fw is slow and you can manage him baiting his atack but DF has no mercy, she will keep hitting you. try to kite dragonfly with 3 lavae on you doing fire damage and stunlocking you Well the DF set-piece with Larvae minions is designed for multiplayer/teams of players engagement. If some people chose to take upon themselves the solo route without cheese and scaling mods is their choice and should admit the challenge as-is knowing that's not the intended way. And upholding such play-style to others is but an elitist approach. It's ok and entertaining to watch a player taking upon themselves such hardcore solo challenge in certain YT videos. But we all should remind ourselves this is not how KLei envisioned that fight. And the compromise for solo people not into hardcore being cheese - path-find exploits, flingos etc. Going as knowledgeable teams in this game (as-intended) actually represents a very powerful way to obliterate bosses, with-or-without cheese. I remember when in one of my pub runs we were at FW 1 Wolf, 2 Wigs, 1 Willow (me - and for that fight I've made about 5 Bernies and was Insane), 1 Wilson and 1 Webber - fight ended in record time; only a single wave of Woven Shadows we mostly ignored. Same with DF: poor monster-insect didn't had time to even enrage once or spew more then 1 Larvae wave, we were shredding them and it on the run, an absurd "gang-bang" of (s)laughter. Thus working as intended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 17 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said: Well the DF set-piece with Larvae minions is designed for multiplayer/teams of players engagement. If some people chose to take upon themselves the solo route without cheese and scaling mods is their choice and should admit the challenge as-is knowing that's not the intended way. And upholding such play-style to others is but an elitist approach. It's ok and entertaining to watch a player taking upon themselves such hardcore solo challenge in certain YT videos. But we all should remind ourselves this is not how KLei envisioned that fight. And the compromise for solo people not into hardcore being cheese - path-find exploits, flingos etc. Going as knowledgeable teams in this game (as-intended) actually represents a very powerful way to obliterate bosses, with-or-without cheese. I remember when in one of my pub runs we were at FW 1 Wolf, 2 Wigs, 1 Willow (me - and for that fight I've made about 5 Bernies and was Insane), 1 Wilson and 1 Webber - fight ended in record time; only a single wave of Woven Shadows we mostly ignored. Same with DF: poor monster-insect didn't had time to even enrage once or spew more then 1 Larvae wave, we were shredding them and it on the run, and absurd "gang-bang" of laughter. Working as intended ofc, i think the same and im not a crazy hardcore gamer that farm df with all the risks, no, i build my wall and keep ice staffs in the floor to prevent loose that world but, as i commend with other user, in terms of difficulty we should think in a non ideal scenario. I mean, to make a difficulty scale all the boss fights should be imagine with the lowest gear required (so a boss that needs only a weapon is an easy boss and a boss that needs many items/healing to prevent a almost garantee death will be more difficult) because all bosses are easy if you have 40 pierogies, an iceflingo matic, 10 thulethite armors etc, with the standard damage (no wolfgangs methods that can be only done by him) and without cheese (you cant say that deerclops is harder than AG or Beequen just because you have your set up to suppress him, that would be topic for another thread like "what is the most expensive set up for fighting a boss") or the skill required like in DF kiting, FW inventory management or klaus attack pattern A good expample is DF where building a wall drops the difficult many magnitudes and yes, there is a huge unbalance between solo bosses and bosses with other players. Its like playing solo is the regular difficulty and playing with others is just farming a big mob. A good example is fw, with 2 people is a joke even without experience. As solo you can be overcome by all the stuff you must do in no time. Same with df, with 2 people she cant stand up, will be all the time stunlocked meanwhile when you are solo a danm lavae can hurt you by 1/2 of your hp for that i dont mind which tecniques i use or other players use to make the fights easier, because, you are making the fight easier. Its all said xD you are altering the difficult so the answer will not be objetive and this is usefull because you can say to someone asking for help "that bosses is so difficult but you can do this and this and all should be fine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallichydra Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 for me its antlion. I can kill dragonfly and Klaus solo, but I always die to antlion. haven't tried to fight all bosses though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 There's that subjective "what is cheese / intended way" coming through... 18 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said: And yes, when assessing difficulty in mobs/bosses take-downs one should start from a vanilla normal fighting pov - no cheese or glitches included. As the boss is intended to be fought. 18 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said: If some people chose to take upon themselves the solo route without cheese and scaling mods is their choice and should admit the challenge as-is knowing that's not the intended way. You're saying we need to judge them as they are "intended to be fought" and say dfly is intended to be a multiplayer fight... Well what boss *isn't* intended to be a multiplayer fight? Do we judge how hard dfly is with 2 players? 4 players? 20 players? how about bee queen or afw? What's more "cheese" ? using 30 catapults or using 20 Wes to KO bee queen? The bottom line is there are things you can do in game, and there are things you can't. If you can freeze a boss to cancel its attack there is no where in the game scripts where the monster checks that you freeze them with an ice staff or a flingomatic. If the developers "intended" you to only freeze bosses with ice staves then only ice staves would freeze bosses... Its not like they couldn't change that if they wanted. As with all survival games the "intended" way is to beat the boss using whatever tactics you prefer. This means you can decide to play it "fighting game" style and go in with weapons, armor, and healing, or you can decide to go in "system" style with flingos, agroing other mobs, ect, or any combination as you see fit. If the game didn't intend those strategies to work, then they would be patched out. *note in the afw fight they didn't patch out lureplants blocking him, but they DID patch out using the arena edge to cancel the bone cages, an afw tactic that was commonly used in speed runs but the devs did decided "wasn't intended" and thus removed (although you can still do it with the pillar, but its not as easy) So how difficult is AFW? Well, if your goal is just to kill him you can do it with 2 lure plants, a shootious, and about 2 days of waiting. That's how difficult he is. You wanna do it the hard way? Go ahead and do it the hard way. Most speed runs primarily use combat because it is quicker and easier to prep for a single kill with combat than to build a total system for the take down, but they never shy from "cheese" where it helps! They'll build walls for dfly, and they always use Wolfgang because their goal isn't to fight the bosses "as intended" but just to kill them fastest. They would utilize flingo if the flingo was faster, but it rarely is. There is interest in fighting with more strict combat strategies purely for the sport of it, but these are not "fighting as intended" any more then the most automated system strategy. While combat typically wins in speed runs if you want to repeatedly kill a boss (or pressing f doesn't interest you as much) a systems approach is worth the investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Shosuko said: cheese if you want, nobody is atacking you lel but cheesing is so different to making the fight easier pd. 2 days to kill fw with lure plants? then is the hard way, you will die of boring xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMGkawaiiAngel Posted May 24, 2020 Author Share Posted May 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said: cheese if you want, nobody is atacking you lel but cheesing is so different to making the fight easier pd. 2 days to kill fw with lure plants? then is the hard way, you will die of boring xD Oh no! Is this how long it takes with that method?! I'm gonna use these 40 blowdarts too I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, Charlie Dark said: Oh no! Is this how long it takes with that method?! I'm gonna use these 40 blowdarts too I guess... is pointless that method when you can bring all the weather pains, blow darts, gunpowder, glass cutters, etc to the fight pd: talking about ice fling vs ice staff. 1 ice staff hits only 1 target and less hits per second, drains sanity, has durability, takes inventory slots so less armor/weapons/other thing in your inventory and must to be in hand to use it so you cant hit meanwhile you freeze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMGkawaiiAngel Posted May 24, 2020 Author Share Posted May 24, 2020 Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said: is pointless that method when you can bring all the weather pains, blow darts, gunpowder, glass cutters, etc to the fight I'll just bring my houndious shootious, 7? lure plants and lazy explorer, I'll stand back and watch the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Charlie Dark said: I'll just bring my houndious shootious, 7? lure plants and lazy explorer, I'll stand back and watch the show. bring pop corns and your movil phone, it will take a long boring time xd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MondayNight Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 On 5/24/2020 at 2:11 PM, Shosuko said: .... DF was a punctual example, applicable to all bosses as you point. And multiplayer means more than one person playing in the game at same time. Ofc fight's difficulty goes down with each additional player participating in said fight; and after a certain number of player is reached, it becomes trivial - but not completely without danger: an enraged DF doing its ground-slam AoE can in fact terminate in that 1-attack an entire group of players standing ground 0, be it 2 or 10. Same with Toad's jumping attack. Depends on skill/knowledge of said players. What is the acceptable number of maximum players in DST? Check default personal server count - is 6. Thus you can assume 6 represents intended number of players per session around which game was optimized. Or, if you include KLei official servers count, then might be 8. But I for one, after playing a lot of times with friends, tend to think 6 is indeed that number. KLei not fixing some cheese tactics (for the sake of diverse approaches to a certain challenge - a thing extending re-play-ability/game's life) doesn't mean dev team tested the alpha game-play when designing respective fight with cheese as a mean of evaluating said fight. Am sure they proof-tested it via normal fighting with melee weapons plus a group of players (2-6 player optimization). Cheese is what inquiring people do by throwing multiple elements at the fight after looking in code and/or taking into account how certain existing mechanics would fair in that particular fight. Yes, cheese is a valid tactic in a Sandbox (some people would argue otherwise - not me, in fact I am all for cheese and exploits ), but it doesn't imply devs designed and primarily tested a certain feature upon its conception with cheesy means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatJash Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 If we were to take the Ancient Fuelweaver out of the picture, then it would be either Bee Queen or Toadstool. Fuelweaver would be too lame of an answer, so I will discuss who I think is the second hardest bosses. I usually play with other people, including friends and family, and certain bosses are way easier when you have more than one person. If you have three or more people, Dragonfly is a joke. Easy scales when stunned, and an easy boss fight overall. Even though Toadstool has a massive health pool, I feel like even that is easily negated when you have more than one person. One to chop, one to tank, and one to manage the team's health. This all changes when you try to fight Bee Queen. God, I hate Bee Queen. The fight for me is just a massive struggle to attack, heal, and deal with them little grumble dudes. The first phase is easy enough, but the fight after that is insane. Even with more than one person. The only thing that kept me from giving up is that I wanted that sweet Bundling Wrap. It was just an insane boss fight overall. Recently just beat her for the first time with two other people, around day 450, and I don't even know if I want to fight her again. It's just the Grumblebees make the to battle 10 times harder, and the Bee Queen is bloodthirsty herself. So I would have to say Bee Queen is harder than Toadstool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMGkawaiiAngel Posted May 25, 2020 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 On 5/24/2020 at 3:36 PM, ArubaroBeefalo said: bring pop corns and your movil phone, it will take a long boring time xd I guess I'll start farming corn now, just to cook it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 23 minutes ago, Charlie Dark said: I guess I'll start farming corn now, just to cook it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMGkawaiiAngel Posted May 25, 2020 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said: This fish is a really bad joke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 Just now, Charlie Dark said: This fish is a really bad joke... not for wurt xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMGkawaiiAngel Posted May 25, 2020 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said: not for wurt xD The... ugly merm thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Charlie Dark said: This fish is a really bad joke... Its a great way to cook up a few powcakes without building farms ^_^,b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datanon Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 i voted for ancient fuelweaver because he's the only boss that has a challenging fight. i think all that bosses like toadstool and bee queen have going on for them is artificial difficulty; just overloading you with numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucenix Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Datanon said: i voted for ancient fuelweaver because he's the only boss that has a challenging fight. i think all that bosses like toadstool and bee queen have going on for them is artificial difficulty; just overloading you with numbers I wonder how we could make them "better bosses", that is, more challenging and engaging, not just the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 56 minutes ago, Lucenix said: I wonder how we could make them "better bosses", that is, more challenging and engaging, not just the first. hamlets bosses are a good example of fun bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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