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Help choosing crude oil to sour gas boiler


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Hello! I'm here yet again asking for help!

I would like to build a sour gas boiler that converts crude oil to natural gas so if anyone of you could suggest a build, other then the ones I'm about to talk about,  that is as small as possible while still being serviceable, I'd be very happy.
 

I already have a double petroleum boiler feeding off a single volcano but i want MORE!

So, I would have gone for a good old Francis John build but since I'm starting from crude oil I can't. The following 2 designs emerged by exclusion from my research:

1) Tony advanced:

 

This one seems to work pretty well, but is kinds old so I was afraid some things didn't work. I'm going to build it in debug but I'm still worried about the first chamber: it looks like an fps killer, the amount of calculations in it seems ridiculous! Is anyone currently using it? Can someone tell me how it is in the long run?


2) The Osha Hater:

So this one is RIDICULOUSLY small, but I'm a bit scared about the difficulty in serviceability. Again, is someone using it? May be someone customized it for emergency maintenance?

Again, I'd be more then happy to look at other superior design that aren't posted in the forums!

Finally, a question about the sulphur: I've read around suggestions to use it to cool down the output, would a room with shipping rails exchanging heat with the pipes suffice? Can anyone share a design about it before I try and make a mess? :-D

Thank you for taking the time!!

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2 hours ago, suxkar said:

I already have a double petroleum boiler feeding off a single volcano but i want MORE!

I'm curious as to why.  In my last world I made it to the temporal tear around cycle 1200.  I never burned a drop of petrol to generate power.  I had two ethanol distilleries running a petrol gen part time, a coal gen, a few hydrogen generators, and some power from steam turbines ( but that's mostly returning half the power spent on cooling things ), and that was plenty of power for me.  What the heck do you do with over 100,000 watts of power?

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1 hour ago, psusi said:

I'm curious as to why.  In my last world I made it to the temporal tear around cycle 1200.  I never burned a drop of petrol to generate power.  I had two ethanol distilleries running a petrol gen part time, a coal gen, a few hydrogen generators, and some power from steam turbines ( but that's mostly returning half the power spent on cooling things ), and that was plenty of power for me.  What the heck do you do with over 100,000 watts of power?

I personally don't play to win the game, I like macroing as much as possible. I'm not sure how, but I'm already drawing more then 25kW at times, without LOX/LH production lol. I guess that is more or less because, since I knew I was going to overproduce energy eventually, I went crazy on many things like incubators and Pdirt production through sieving for pokeshells. So, instead of building another petroleum boiler, I figured I'd build a sour gas one. I have never done it and they look complicated and frigile enough to be fun :grin: Plus I want as much PW as possible for reed fibers-->insulation.

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If you like it big, maybe you want to try something like this:

2135059139_30kgBoiler.thumb.png.ff6753c0a6269157307ed0dcd3ae2b15.png

This thing is heavily influenced by the "OSHA Hater" and designed to process up to 30kg/s of crude oil. It exhibits some interesting properties like:

1. electrical and transportation bridges are quite formidable heat exchangers (although i'm not sure, they exchange heat, but temperature)

2. esher waterfalls are visual appealing, and a technical beauty. They are flow-independent but have a very high "material reserve" (in this case around 6000kg of methane/natural gas) You can probably substitute them with two liquid pumps, although i'm not sure, how well this works.

3. for high flow applications, bead pumps are almost a must

4. gas dynamics in uniform gases has some quite simple basic mechanic.

5. liquid vents overpressure at 1000kg, either if the occupying element is a gas or a liquid

To comment on point 4 more, gas flow between a "sink" (void, gas pump) and a "source" in uniform gases is just the equalization between those two tiles. So:

- one tile at 2 kg neighboring a tile at vacuum level equalize at 1kg "flow rate" (2kg - 0kg)/2 = 1kg per second

- the same is true for one tile at 4kg and one at 2kg (4kg - 2kg)/2 = 1kg per second

- this leads to the simple formula, were a is source "pressure", b is target "pressure", d is distance and x is resulting flow, (a-b)/(2*d)=x

- in our case, where x is 30kg, a is lower than 1000kg (paying attention to 5.), i choose 900kg for simplicity, b is zero (as in vacuum created by liquifying), the resulting d, the length of the sour gas "pipe", d=(a-b)/(2*x)=(900kg-0kg)/(2*30kg)=15 tiles. This is the limiting factor for gas flow, the higher the flow, the shorter the pipe has to be, or else the top liquid vent WILL overpressurize.

- one can increase gas flow from "source" to "sink" up to 4 times by increasing "lanes" (4 adjacent tiles to the source/sink) to, altough i'm thinking, 3 is the empirical optimum (3 tiles wide up/down corridors). This wont help with this reactor, as wider "pipes" will reduce thermal efficiency.

The reactor can process from like 300g/s of crude oil up to 30kg/s, in the pic it runs at 4.5kg. It needs an initialization phase with low throughput though (i used around 600g/s), to fill the esher waterfall, where heat exchange between sour gas and methane/natgas does not happen. Brown-/Blackouts on the "cool" side are a nogo, and heavy changes in throughput, although it is quite tolerable to temporary crude oil outages.

If it is feasable in survival, i can't say. And there is probably much optimization potential.

I want to post the thermal overlay first to showcase the weird thermal behaviour, i observed (point 1).

327877922_30kgBoilerTemperature.thumb.png.531bd5bc2d785b7ba65999e659b8a838.png

Additional Overlays:

Spoiler

 

Electric Overlay (the wire bridges are for heat transfer):

76729309_30kgBoilerElectric.thumb.png.613517cc5703b69e3b37057b93e51b0f.png

Shipping Overlay (the bridges are for heat transfer too, the sulfur transportation is just a convenience):

398785559_30kgBoilerShipping.thumb.png.5f3d3961f97ef061c40264250592fc21.png

Plumbing (the valve-bridge-combo on the right side is for swapping 50% of coolant between the two loops):

1576756022_30kgBoilerPlumbing.thumb.png.c4d0286d5210b853a4b2ec565e236377.png

Ventilation:

12819600_30kgBoilerVentilation.thumb.png.11f5c2358c6253ccc8231fd0200c4cae.png

Automation:

1405120120_30kgBoilerAutomation.thumb.png.13e367b0305a118f10923ef7c5876a9c.png

 

 

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On 5/14/2020 at 1:22 PM, TripleM999 said:

This is the limiting factor for gas flow, the higher the flow, the shorter the pipe has to be, or else the top liquid vent WILL overpressurize.

I've been playing with boilers the last few days. Figured you would like a new toy to play with. You can build a bead pump, with a single liquid, that will never overpressurize (skip the EZ-bead if you might overpressurize).  Then you have no such limiting factor. You can go crazy, and then the only limiting factor is the viscosity of your liquid. I'll just post a picture for now.  If you want more details, feel free to ask.

image.png.32ca16a2d5806b1470430aafdf0e7a

The shuftoff valve is not used in this picture. The first valve is set at 200g, the second at 30. You can see way more details here. Just try to fail to make a waterfall and instead end up with a bead pump. You can add as many liquid vents as you want to this, to the right of the current vents, to increase the flow. So if you want to have a 200kg/s flow rate (max flow is 250 = 5* viscosity), just have 20 vents, followed by a 100 tile+ heat exchanger (yeah you would end up with massive amounts of gas in the exchanger - so 2*200*100 = 40000kg of sour gas in the biggest tile, but oh well). Or stack them up in domino fashion to the right and above the right most vent.  All kinds of crazy configurations are allowed.

Have fun. I'll probably make my own post soon with more details, like a bypass pump that never overpressurizes as well. This is useful for getting the NG out of the exchange loop (which you are doing), but your design will stop working if the top chamber ever exceeds 1000kg. Here's a pic for that one. 

image.png.e452783a2c5c0f15fd6307df1c12b8

I'm guessing you can figure out the mechanics. Supercoolant would have been a better choice than petro, but oh well. 

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.e350e72b21e0dc965d8be24c

The steam turbine in the middle, cooled by the supercoolant cooling loop, is never being used, so I'll be dismantling it completely and trying a new design. Thanks to @OxCD for lots of ideas and help. I hope to see your SG boiler complete soon.  

 

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1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

 

  Hide contents

image.thumb.png.e350e72b21e0dc965d8be24c

The steam turbine in the middle, cooled by the supercoolant cooling loop, is never being used, so I'll be dismantling it completely and trying a new design. Thanks to @OxCD for lots of ideas and help. I hope to see your SG boiler complete soon.  

 

I'm a bit confused by the top right area. It doesn't seem to me to be a bead to facilitate diffusion. What is the purpose? Why are you dripping crude oil in the mesh tile?
 

Also, I didn't realize you could have counterflow heat exchanges made entirely by bridges. My question is, why are those better then direct tile exchange? In "my" boiler I allowed heat exchange with tile made of thermium and insulation intermittently, helped by tempshift plates, but I did so because I trusted the people I took the designs from knew better. If it was up to me, I would allow the whole heat exchanger to be made of metal tiles and let the temperature equalize on its own, without interference. I don't see people do it, so I guess it would be less efficient.. why?

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10 minutes ago, suxkar said:

I'm a bit confused by the top right area. It doesn't seem to me to be a bead to facilitate diffusion. What is the purpose? Why are you dripping crude oil in the mesh tile?

I believe that is a bypass pump.  He is pouring some other liquid (probably petroleum or naphtha) in tiny quantities over the crude oil.

5 minutes ago, suxkar said:

Also, I didn't realize you could have counterflow heat exchanges made entirely by bridges. My question is, why are those better then direct tile exchange? In "my" boiler I allowed heat exchange with tile made of thermium and insulation intermittently, helped by tempshift plates, but I did so because I trusted the people I took the designs from knew better. If it was up to me, I would allow the whole heat exchanger to be made of metal tiles and let the temperature equalize on its own, without interference. I don't see people do it, so I guess it would be less efficient.. why?

I believe the benefit of making the counterflow heat exchanger out of bridges is that you don't lose efficiency via the metal tiles transferring heat between each other.  If you are cooling something hot through an exchanger, you want as little thermal interaction between the colder parts ahead of you and the hotter parts behind you as possible.  Adjacent bridges don't conduct heat. 

But the design might be improved if every other tile were metal.  That way, you get reduced thermal backflow but you still get increased conductivity in the exchanger.

 

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45 minutes ago, suxkar said:

I'm a bit confused by the top right area

The liquid vent and mesh should be deleted in that spoiler pic. Also my exchanger might be better with every other tile metal. My forte is liquid mechanics not heat exchangers.

33 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

But the design might be improved if every other tile were metal.  That way, you get reduced thermal backflow but you still get increased conductivity in the exchanger.

This is my plan for tomorrow.

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19 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

The liquid vent and mesh should be deleted in that spoiler pic. Also my exchanger might be better with every other tile metal. My forte is liquid mechanics not heat exchangers.

This is my plan for tomorrow.

How much oil is it processing? With only a single aquatuner cooling?

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5 hours ago, mathmanican said:

 

image.png.32ca16a2d5806b1470430aafdf0e7a

The shuftoff valve is not used in this picture. The first valve is set at 200g, the second at 30. You can see way more details here. Just try to fail to make a waterfall and instead end up with a bead pump. You can add as many liquid vents as you want to this, to the right of the current vents, to increase the flow. So if you want to have a 200kg/s flow rate (max flow is 250 = 5* viscosity), just have 20 vents, followed by a 100 tile+ heat exchanger (yeah you would end up with massive amounts of gas in the exchanger - so 2*200*100 = 40000kg of sour gas in the biggest tile, but oh well). Or stack them up in domino fashion to the right and above the right most vent.  All kinds of crazy configurations are allowed.

I struggle to get this to work reliable. I have always some crude oil dripping down, instead of beading, even with 30g for the left vent, 170g for the right.

imfailing.png.79f521d3f5bb996cc5c544ad24bea875.png

 

4 hours ago, suxkar said:

Also, I didn't realize you could have counterflow heat exchanges made entirely by bridges. My question is, why are those better then direct tile exchange? In "my" boiler I allowed heat exchange with tile made of thermium and insulation intermittently, helped by tempshift plates, but I did so because I trusted the people I took the designs from knew better. If it was up to me, I would allow the whole heat exchanger to be made of metal tiles and let the temperature equalize on its own, without interference. I don't see people do it, so I guess it would be less efficient.. why?

As @Zarquan already mentioned, for optimal heat exchange you want as many discret exchange compartments as possible, without them to exchange heat with each other as that would reduce efficiency. That is the reason, wire and conveyor bridges are that great for it. They exchange heat with liquids or gases but not with neighboring bridges. And that is why temp shift plates would ruin the efficiency. Using metal or diamond every other tile in the seperating wall will help.

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1 hour ago, TripleM999 said:

I struggle to get this to work reliable. I have always some crude oil dripping down, instead of beading, even with 30g for the left vent, 170g for the right.

imfailing.png.79f521d3f5bb996cc5c544ad24bea875.png

I think, i've found a possible solution in your hydrodynamics thread, although i do not even understand, why this works better, @mathmanican

possiblesolution.png.04aaa1af3c84fd76aa90b5cb85df58f8.png

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1 hour ago, TripleM999 said:

I struggle to get this to work reliable. I have always some crude oil dripping down, instead of beading, even with 30g for the left vent, 170g for the right.

With water the numbers I gave work fine. Crudes viscosity requires higher values. The numbers needed are in the waterfall thread. Let me know if you need more.

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5 hours ago, suxkar said:

How much oil is it processing? With only a single aquatuner cooling?

A dismal 2000g per sec right now. The NG leaves the loop at 340C so heat transfer is working. I use this to preheat 77c crude to about 160. I need to work on the boiler plate section. The single tuner can clearly cool more.

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40 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

With water the numbers I gave work fine. Crudes viscosity requires higher values. The numbers needed are in the waterfall thread. Let me know if you need more.

I tried higher numbers too, up to 500g for the left vent. I will for now work with my posted workaround, as that is more reliable, even with lower numbers for the crude, although, as i said, i don't understand for now, WHY it works.

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2 minutes ago, TripleM999 said:

I tried higher numbers too, up to 500g for the left vent

10g per sec min on left vent. Try 1000g per sec on right. That will get it working fine.

The left vent is a starter vent. It only needs to output minimal at start 

Flow numbers on crude are 10 times water.

6 minutes ago, TripleM999 said:

i don't understand for now, WHY it works.

My hope is that this experiment makes you want to dig deeper and answer why. I'd love another liquid tamer on the forums. :-D

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Well @suxkar, I made a few modifications and got it up to 3500g/s crude with a single tuner.  I'm pretty sure this could go up quite a bit more, if I made the boiling chute a bit taller so that I had to waste less heat on flashing the crude to SG.  The diamond tiles in the SG/NG chamber brought my SG temp down almost 100 degrees before hitting the cooling plate, so definitely that's important.  As for my original cooking area, I swapped it out for a 1000kg/tile steam room for the aquatuner, topped off by a diamond plate.  I think this was the biggest improvement.  Using molten lead and letting sour gas form in the steam room was less ideal.  My guess is that this approach enables the heat deletion bug we see with turbines.  As for the turbine I deleted, I'll probably put it back in.  It only runs in the event of an oil shortage, and then protects the aquatuners.  Everything else in the build gets sucked to vacuum if you turn off the oil input, without any breakage. Here is a last image.  I'll probably start a new thread if I post any more. 

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.3d25bbc9358fd6a6723a4066f6f91091.png

The super coolant room in the lower left can be swapped to a water room provided I use a buffer liquid storage tank with some super coolant, and a liquid shutoff to only allow SC into the water pool if the liquid leaving the storage tank is too cold. That should save a bunch on super coolant needs. 

 

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3 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Well @suxkar, I made a few modifications and got it up to 3500g/s crude with a single tuner.  I'm pretty sure this could go up quite a bit more, if I made the boiling chute a bit taller so that I had to waste less heat on flashing the crude to SG.  The diamond tiles in the SG/NG chamber brought my SG temp down almost 100 degrees before hitting the cooling plate, so definitely that's important.  As for my original cooking area, I swapped it out for a 1000kg/tile steam room for the aquatuner, topped off by a diamond plate.  I think this was the biggest improvement.  Using molten lead and letting sour gas form in the steam room was less ideal.  My guess is that this approach enables the heat deletion bug we see with turbines.  As for the turbine I deleted, I'll probably put it back in.  It only runs in the event of an oil shortage, and then protects the aquatuners.  Everything else in the build gets sucked to vacuum if you turn off the oil input, without any breakage. Here is a last image.  I'll probably start a new thread if I post any more. 

  Hide contents

image.thumb.png.3d25bbc9358fd6a6723a4066f6f91091.png

The super coolant room in the lower left can be swapped to a water room provided I use a buffer liquid storage tank with some super coolant, and a liquid shutoff to only allow SC into the water pool if the liquid leaving the storage tank is too cold. That should save a bunch on super coolant needs. 

 

I got similar results when trying to downsize my boiler. I made the tower just a couple of tiles longer then yours, but still 10kg/s. The aquatuner that boils the oil was running like 95% of the time. Its cooling, along with another aquatuner working with 100% uptime, was BARELY UNable to keep up with the cooling, i.e. the temperature in the chill sink was increasing by around 5C every cycle (I stopped testing before failure).

I'm guessing it can't be helped: since we lose chilling to the conversion (sulphur has lower SHC), extra cooling has to be required even if shipping sulphur. Which makes me wonder, how is your design working? Isn't the temperature slowly rising? May be you didn't notice because that much super coolant is a HUGE heat sink, but mathematically, even with perfect efficiency, it should be getting warmer.. Or am I wrong?

Anyway, I'll be happy to see your final result in you upcoming post:-D

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Yeah, in theory NG has little higher heat capacitiy, but lower mass then the preproduct sour gas, but nonetheless, and i think the reason is some heat transfer bug, my reactor design does not need much effort on the cooling side. None of the aquatuners are running much, they are mostly needed for init phase and some interruptions.

Btw. Concept Car running at 70kg/s crude:

ConceptCar70kg.thumb.png.9615cc25b851ad60900e18297dcf1d61.png

Sour gas boiler is already shaky at these rates, methane condenser is fine.

For inspiration here is an old 10kg design of me with flowindependent liquid separator in the condenser and super coolant bead pump for the NG:

10kgReactor.thumb.png.7980375f334123183ef297c23da8fafd.png

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On 6/1/2020 at 4:05 AM, suxkar said:

May be you didn't notice because that much super coolant is a HUGE heat sink, but mathematically, even with perfect efficiency, it should be getting warmer.. Or am I wrong?

Because it's an open system with regards to oil in and gas/sulfur out, any imbalance in SHC will be carried by the final temperature difference in the input/ouputs in a perfectly efficient system and reach a steady-state.

A simpler example is that when converting oil to petroleum at 100% efficiency, your petroleum output will always be higher than your oil input. This changes depending on your starting temperature, but here is an example. (300K input → 312.4K output).

image.png.73db9314fd3b9cf2ab2c469445b34c5c.png

Less than 100% efficiency is okay too. It will just increase the output steady state (it will make the -635 number closer to 0).

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21 hours ago, mathmanican said:
 

image.thumb.png.3d25bbc9358fd6a6723a4066f6f91091.png

 

21 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Well @suxkar, I made a few modifications and got it up to 3500g/s crude with a single tuner

I only see one NG pump in there.  If 3.5 kg/s of crude goes in then isn't that going to produce way more than 500g/s of NG that will need to be pumped out?

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