Klei pls fix this rework

[Kaw_]

In my opinion, the defense elixir is a waste of morning glory. If Abigail needs or takes several consecutive attacks, simply use the revenge elixir, she will kill the monsters faster and lose much less life. If it is to keep it safe, simply return it to the flower. If the monsters attack at different times, the effect will be useless and neither she nor Wendy will receive benefits.

The basic shield is enough. Using the elixir to improve does not make a difference. There's no "not seeing it with the naked eye", without wanting to be rude, I was watching Abigail's life with and without the Elixir.

34 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

How the bloody heck can people NOT have figured this out for themselves???? Before the Rework Abigail would of Died near instantly to Frog Rain Swarms... With the Rework Though Abigail can clear the entire Frog Rain Session.

I also think potions should last a little longer (maybe this effect can also factor in how many Mourning glories we use in crafting it, or how many potions we feed Abigail at once....) And that the effects of Potions should Stack- So if I want a fast moving Abigail wearing a Shield doing Damage, I went and got all those ingredients for her to become OP, so let her BE OP

If they are worried this will be too game breaking then Fine- Adjust the cost of potions to include more Mourning Glory & Maybe rarer Resources such as GEMS. Winona’s Gem-ER-Rator uses Gems, So it’s not like it’s a big No-No Idea..

The ONLY part as a Wendy main that I am 100% completely confused about is they took a character that’s meant to be an extremely Easy Mode playstyle, and made it more rewarding if you play as her while on the verge of Already Dying.. 

A playstyle that obviously isn’t meant for extremely easy play. As someone who plays games on Hardcore mode wanting to be punished around every corner for the most basic mistake...  I can (personally) appreciate Wendy’s new found difficulty curve.

But I can also see where Less skilled players, or maybe even skilled people who don’t wish to lag back into certain death, & who were expecting Wendy to be easy to play could be rubbed the wrong way on this design choice.

The TL:DR Wendy’s Rework now requires you to be skilled at running around at the brink of Death in order to get the fullest potential out of Abigail.

A fully potencial, if you allow me to say, that is not worth the price for many people here. We just want to improve things that can get better

[CremeLover]

29 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

snip

They haven't figured it out because is not in the patch notes and because the only way to notice it is when abigail is being swarmed by mobs. And even then noticing that sometimes abigail don't take damage from hits when she's being swarmed non-stop as her health decreases is difficult to notice when she's actually nullifying damage. Also, before rework abigail could take a single worm by herself, so she has become weaker in some circunstances

What I believe they were going for when they made her "harder" to play was a thematic gameplay mechanic. As Wendy grows weaker and closer to death, her sister jumps in to protect her stronger than ever.

Also, she has become easier to play after all her new mechanics, she's just now more difficult and risky to play if you want to use Abigail effectively.

3 minutes ago, Toriih said:

There's no "not seeing it with the naked eye", without wanting to be rude, I was watching Abigail's life with and without the Elixir.

My point was noticing an extra .3 seconds of animation when the shield goes off was something that flew over my head the first time, and had a hard time figuring out what the shield elixir did. That's where "not seeing it with the naked eye" comes from. I also do agree .3 extra seconds is not very significant unless the mob you're fighting is very large.

[Kaw_]

1 minute ago, CremeLover said:

They haven't figured it out because is not in the patch notes and because the only way to notice it is when abigail is being swarmed by mobs. And even then noticing that sometimes abigail don't take damage from hits when she's being swarmed non-stop as her health decreases is difficult to notice when she's actually nullifying damage. Also, before rework abigail could take a single worm by herself, so she has become weaker in some circunstances

What I believe they were going for when they made her "harder" to play was a thematic gameplay mechanic. As Wendy grows weaker and closer to death, her sister jumps in to protect her stronger than ever.

Also, she has become easier to play after all her new mechanics, she's just now more difficult and risky to play if you want to use Abigail effectively.

My point was noticing an extra .3 seconds of animation when the shield goes off was something that flew over my head the first time, and had a hard time figuring out what the shield elixir did. That's where "not seeing it with the naked eye" comes from. I also do agree .3 extra seconds is not very significant unless the mob you're fighting is very large.

so forgive my misinterpretation, but I thank you again for your opinions, they all help Klei to make a good decision.

[reDink]

42 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

How the bloody heck can people NOT have figured this out for themselves???? Before the Rework Abigail would of Died near instantly to Frog Rain Swarms... With the Rework Though Abigail can clear the entire Frog Rain Session.

I also think potions should last a little longer (maybe this effect can also factor in how many Mourning glories we use in crafting it, or how many potions we feed Abigail at once....) And that the effects of Potions should Stack- So if I want a fast moving Abigail wearing a Shield doing Damage, I went and got all those ingredients for her to become OP, so let her BE OP

If they are worried this will be too game breaking then Fine- Adjust the cost of potions to include more Mourning Glory & Maybe rarer Resources such as GEMS. Winona’s Gem-ER-Rator uses Gems, So it’s not like it’s a big No-No Idea..

The ONLY part as a Wendy main that I am 100% completely confused about is they took a character that’s meant to be an extremely Easy Mode playstyle, and made it more rewarding if you play as her while on the verge of Already Dying.. 

A playstyle that obviously isn’t meant for extremely easy play. As someone who plays games on Hardcore mode wanting to be punished around every corner for the most basic mistake...  I can (personally) appreciate Wendy’s new found difficulty curve.

But I can also see where Less skilled players, or maybe even skilled people who don’t wish to lag back into certain death, & who were expecting Wendy to be easy to play could be rubbed the wrong way on this design choice.

The TL:DR Wendy’s Rework now requires you to be skilled at running around at the brink of Death in order to get the fullest potential out of Abigail.

sorry man, I don't think a survival game needs to put you into low HP to have a good reward (at last Wendy users)... Playing as wendy these days, i'm always low on hp to have the best potential, but i practically stand still healing her and watching her do everything ... besides that after that last HOTFIX, abigail got back to being stupid and not attacking in the area some farms like the WEREPIGS during the full moon, in reality I didn’t like the current abigail and it’s not because of a lack of experience but because the SUMMONER scheme was boring, I stay there with low HP while she does the workaways.

Just my feedback... I prefer the old Abigail with the new pipspook and flower mechanics...

If it stays the way it is, I will prefer to play with another character unfortunately

[Terra B Welch]

If there is one thing I definately noticed with abigail now is her against spiders, old abigail used to take hits from spiders before her AoE would hit them, now she actually pre-empts spiders who get in her AoE range, which is a definate plus.

As for the damage at low health I honestly feel like the scaling should go up at certain health thresholds, like the damage up per point of health wendy looses isn't as much when she's above 50% health, but below 50% health abigail gains more damage per point of health lost then gains even more at 20% or lower, so playing risky is more rewarding then just running around with chip damage for a few extra points of abigail damage.

I like the idea of playing risky for damage, it's just right now I feel 1hp for basically "shy of old night damage abigail" is basically just asking "too much for not enough"

Hence why I mentioned in an previous post of mine about making the damage cap about 60 instead of about 40. Having her do about 40 damage when wendy's health is at a threshold where at least armor would let her barely take a hit or two I feel would be a bit more agreeable, but being at 1hp means even armor is useless as any damage means death and considering this is online play which means ping, such risk should be a little more rewarded.

Just a bit more of my thoughts on the whole wendy health to abigail damage thing.

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

48 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

The ONLY part as a Wendy main that I am 100% completely confused about is they took a character that’s meant to be an extremely Easy Mode playstyle, and made it more rewarding if you play as her while on the verge of Already Dying.. 

 

she still being nice for new players (more now with free light and more control over her) even with her base damage and experience players can be at 50% because you dont need to be at 1hp to get extra damage

[Mike23Ua]

10 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

she still being nice for new players (more now with free light and more control over her) even with her base damage and experience players can be at 50% because you dont need to be at 1hp to get extra damage

This.. If Abigail got her full potential when Wendy is at 50% or less then I wouldn’t have to sit back and watch Abigail fight while I hide in a corner trying not to die in one hit.

My current Obituaries read as follows-

Death By Flint.

Death by Meteor Shower.

Death by Sinkhole.

Death by Mosquito.

 

My point is things that used to barely be a problem at all... now becomes A life or death situation for a 3hp Wendy. 

[Omlett]

About Abi's damage being tied to Wendy's health...

 

I don't think the point was to enable a glass cannon "let's stand back with 1 hp and watch a super-strong Abigail deal with them" kind of playstyle, even though challenge-seeker players probably would have enjoyed that. I think they actually wanted to encourage new and inexperienced players to join the fray and fight alongside their sister without worries of getting hurt, because even if that happens Abigail becomes stronger and helps finishing the battle. Of course it doesn't stop experienced players from trying to reach higher damage for Abi by staying deliberately at low HP, but I don't think that was the point. That's why I don't mind that this mechanic is not as strong as we thought it would be.

 

If they want to boost Abi's damage I would rather see it in the form of higher base damage, via the elixirs, or with the removal of the damage reduction for multiple enemies. Or maybe bring back the day-cycle dependent damage in some form...? That wasn't too annoying or hard to take advantage of.

 

On the other hand, I may be completely wrong in interpreting the devs' intentions, in which case Abi does need some help for sure, and you guys already came up with many great ideas.

[Lukmendes]

11 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Why is everyone getting lost on this? Playing as Wendy, is.. was.. and always has been easier then playing as Wilson, Wes, Warly.. etc.

So I don’t understand Why Klei would actually Encourage to flip that with her Refresh and make it so that running around with 1hp all the time is a GOOD thing.

I would prefer it if they allowed you to increase Abigail damage by other means, such as putting Evil Flower into Sisturn for Example.. 

I love the Rework, I just don’t understand why they took one of the easiest characters in the game to play and turned into something that only extremely skilled players will be able to effectively use to its full potential  

I actually don't like having low HP for Abigail to hit harder, but I don't think Klei will be removing that, so I'm just suggesting ideas for this to be less extreme in difficulty.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, CremeLover said:

They haven't figured it out because is not in the patch notes...

Yeah I get a sense that some things were left out of the patch notes for players to figure out, but the defense is more of an "unseen power" that is easily overlooked, especially when you're not expecting it.  They should have probably explained at least her base defense mechanic along with her new damage mechanic.  With at least that explained people could have extrapolated from that to understand her defense potions.

When I went into a game to test out the potions I was putting her up against 1 beefalo and found no effect from her defense potions and wondered if they were bugged.

[Sweaper]

For people who are complaining that they can't participate in fights because you need to be low on Wendy, well, don't be low on Wendy and participate anyway in the fight alongside Abigail, they do just fine together. Against 10+ mobs that aren't spiders just pop an elixir and fight 1 by 1 while Abigail deal with the rest.

[Kaw_]

11 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

For people who are complaining that they can't participate in fights because you need to be low on Wendy, well, don't be low on Wendy and participate anyway in the fight alongside Abigail, they do just fine together. Against 10+ mobs that aren't spiders just pop an elixir and fight 1 by 1 while Abigail deal with the rest.

Comparing what it was like to do this in the past, it is not enough. You have enough information for that in this topic. Abigail shouldn't be dealing with the rest, she should have a mutual partnership, and yet it is not enough

[Sweaper]

Just now, Toriih said:

Comparing what it was like to do this in the past, it is not enough. You have enough information for that in this topic.

She is better at mob control than before, can't have it all. But Klei could tone her mob control down to give more power to her when dealing with low number of enemies, since being able to kill some absurdly amount of enemies is just overkill and doesn't happen at all in the game.

[Kaw_]

Just now, Sweaper said:

She is better at mob control than before, can't have it all. But Klei could tone her mob control down to give more power to her when dealing with low number of enemies, since being able to kill some absurdly amount of enemies is just overkill and doesn't happen at all in the game.

Everything that was asked for here is not even an exaggerated level, and in any case, not everything here will happen exactly as requested. It is important to give the best amount of ideas, citing those that are here and that are not exaggerated, so that Klei can make a good decision

[Sweaper]

Just now, Toriih said:

Everything that was asked for here is not even an exaggerated level, and in any case, not everything here will happen exactly as requested. It is important to give the best amount of ideas, citing those that are here and that are not exaggerated, so that Klei can make a good decision

Being able to kill a few hundred frogs and one hundred hounds is exaggerated and unnecessary gameplay wise, since you won't ever meet those mobs in these numbers unless you're spawning them yourself, they could rebalance that to give more power to her 1vs1~3 potential.

[Kaw_]

25 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

Being able to kill a few hundred frogs and one hundred hounds is exaggerated and unnecessary gameplay wise, since you won't ever meet those mobs in these numbers unless you're spawning them yourself, they could rebalance that to give more power to her 1vs1~3 potential.

I can only thank you for your contribution for now, several situations have already been discussed by people who tested similarly to yours and even had time to play for hours and hours to look for the best way to take advantage of her ability, and many are still dissatisfied. Klei certainly got enough to decide the best thing to do tomorrow, so we just have to wait. Thank you again.

[ShyRo-Zyerenzy]

So.... summary , since no wendy mains want to say it.
She was able to make the best sanity gain station in the game and was able to summon an Abigail with 600 hp right after the other died with 30 damage at dusk , 40 at night without aoe reduced dmg penalty for more than one enemy.

Now she has an inferior version of the sanity station and has to wait 4 days before Abigail gets to 600 hp. or 1 day and a half ( or half a day, still does not surpass the fully healed summon w/ the new structure)

She now struggles vs splumonkeys which she shined at, the potions are really inferior to compensate the fact of losing every other aspect she had for free and without risk. She cant even tank a boss yet, or survive longer, it hasn't changed ( don't include antlion, she doesn't take environmental damage )
Only the heal potion has real value ( to compensate the fact of no flower cycling anymore, still nerf, she does less damage with AOE, No damage to single enemies unless you're on 10-1 health( maybe too extreme but you know what i mean you now have risks for trying to get your damage back. her damage gets cut in half the moment she's fighting more than one enemy ) 
She got a better stunlocking for normal spiders so no more edgyrick videos spawning 100000 spiders meme but still gets melted by warriors(lots of them)  . 

we got the shield which deals somewhat decent with hounds and frogs but could be improved, she has to be the crowd control niche rite? either by default or via potions.
we also control abigail better a nice qol change. Summon/unsummon, and attack/passive mode. THANKS.

SO... again i suggest changing the dmg increase to insanity not hp. ( I had enough of lag spikes just to have fun with the increased damage, and i'm one of the players that like to min-max stuff )
Stacking potions, and making the effect stronger( way more stronger like duration and stats effect, to justify farming said items, more dmg for keeping her alive, you got rid of enough stuff so it's just valid to compensate it ), like the defense potion giving a % of armor to not get melted easily vs a boss.
And also bringing the old angry mode targeting back. 

[QuartzBeam]

13 minutes ago, ShyRo-Zyerenzy said:

has to wait 4 days before Abigail gets to 600 hp. or 1 day and a half ( or half a day, still does not surpass the fully healed summon w/ the new structure)

You only have to wait 2 days. Abby starts with 150, upgrades to 300 after a day and then to 600 after another day. And the sister cuts that down to half a day.

 

 

[CremeLover]

32 minutes ago, ShyRo-Zyerenzy said:

She was able to make the best sanity gain station in the game and was able to summon an Abigail with 600 hp right after the other died with 30 damage at dusk , 40 at night without aoe reduced dmg penalty for more than one enemy.

She now struggles vs splumonkeys which she shined at

Mostly agree with everything, but two things, she did 20 damage during dusk, not 30, and she now shines at taking large crowds of mobs, spelumonkeys are no exception. Even with full health she can take on 10 without losing half her health.

[Hypersomnia]

Wendy's one of my favorite characters to play as, so here are my two cents.

1. HP-based damage scaling

I tend to like both joke characters you can master and make viable and high-risk, high-reward characters, or 'glass cannons,' so I have no issue with this new mechanic conceptually--in fact, I love the thrill of just barely being able to get away with something that's almost too powerful; furthermore, it's unique: no other character has this type of incentive. I disagree with the notion that it has no place in a survival game, because both elements necessary for it to make sense are present (risk and reward).

In my opinion, a number tweak to make Abigail's damage escalate more and more abruptly only at the lowest HP percentages is all that's missing (her damage near the HP cap is okay); the risk should stay as-is--no 50 HP cap for the damage scaling. People don't seem to be factoring into their thinking that we have Night Armors and Marble Suits to mitigate the cost of having a helper with high damage.

2. Elixirs

Great concept, although a bit underwhelming in practice, particularly the shields. However, I suppose the way they work makes complete sense if we consider the fact that the developers want to make AoE Abigail's specialty. Unfortunately, I'm not exactly sure what to do with them. The damage reduction proposal feels redundant, since the healing elixirs already act as a sort of shield. Maybe things would be different if they could be stacked and the duration of the effects were increased. 

3. Abigail's 'aggressive mode'

I think they overcorrected this one. As long as she doesn't attack befriended mobs, Glommer, Chester/Hutch and a beefalo that's either tamed or in the process of being tamed, it's fine.

4. Sisturn 

It would be nice if you could put rarer items in it, to either enhance or reverse its effect on sanity. 

The rest, especially the ability to somewhat control and summon/de-summon Abigail at will is great. Overall, I liked this rework quite a bit.

[QuartzBeam]

7 minutes ago, Hypersomnia said:

Wendy's one of my favorite characters to play as, so here are my two cents.

1. HP-based damage scaling

In my opinion, a number tweak to make Abigail's damage escalate more and more abruptly only at the lowest HP percentages is all that's missing (her damage near the HP cap is okay); the risk should stay as-is--no 50 HP cap for the damage scaling. People don't seem to be factoring into their thinking that we have Night Armors and Marble Suits to mitigate the cost of having a helper with high damage.

 

I too love the HP-based damage scaling (again, in concept more so than in execution). However, unless I'm misunderstanding something, what you're describing is already the case.

Abigail's bonus damage is a quadratic function of the % of health Wendy is missing. Going from 150 hp to 112.5 hp will only raise Abigail's DPS by a measly 2.3 points. But going from 15 HP to 1 HP, will raise her DPS by a whopping 7 points. In other words, most of her bonus damage is "squeezed" into the lower end of Wendy's health pool.

You have to lose half your health for the bonus DPS to get 25% of the potential bonus DPS and that only brings Abigail up to the same AoE DPS she had during dusks before the rework. (Admittedly, the shield she has now make this comparison less than fair, but the shield is not a panacea.)

And even with Night Armor, no one's gonna drop to single-digit HP to get those last 5 points of DPS. Anything that warrants using Night Armor can 1- or 2-shot you if all you have are 10 hp (especially with crowds, which are Abigail's specialty) and anything that doesn't probably won't be an issue without those last 5 points.

Klei could keep the risk-reward nature of this perk intact, while still making it more widely usable if only they made the scaling linear. This way risk averse players could enjoy +10 dps by dropping to a "perfectly safe" 112.5 HP, more confident ones could drop to 75 HP for +20 DPS and the most courageous of all could easily drop to around 37.5 HP for +30 DPS. And on the off chance that something beats the manure out of you, Abigail can get up to 10 more "emergency" DPS to save the day.

 

38 minutes ago, Hypersomnia said:

2. Elixirs

 

Great concept, although a bit underwhelming in practice, particularly the shields. However, I suppose the way they work makes complete sense if we consider the fact that the developers want to make AoE Abigail's specialty. Unfortunately, I'm not exactly sure what to do with them. The damage reduction proposal feels redundant, since the healing elixirs already act as a sort of shield. Maybe things would be different if they could be stacked and the duration of the effects were increased.

 

I believe Ectoherbology is meant to be a toolbox from which the players must choose the right tool for each job, which is why they do not stack. Yes, technically, all the elixirs aside from Vigor Mortis do the same thing: they boost Abigail's survivability. However, each elixir has a different crafting cost and boosts Abigail's survivability in a different manner, which sets it apart from the other elixirs. For example:

• the defense and vengeance elixirs are not reliant on Wendy having low health to be effective, whereas the attack elixir is. Conversely, the attack elixir works when fighting a few enemies or a single enemy, whereas the defense and vengeance elixirs do not.
• defense potion is worse than the vengeance one in effectiveness, but it costs less than half as many resources to craft. it also costs way less than the fast regen potion and lasts 4 times as long as it does

Don't get me wrong, I understand why people find the elixirs underwhelming and I generally agree with that notion myself, but I think the elixirs are a very solid piece of game design. Sure, some of the numbers need to be tweaked upwards (in conjunction with the aforementioned linear damage scaling), but I'm not sure Mourning Glories (or the other ingredients, barring Living Logs) are rare enough to warrant a lot of these huge buffs I keep seeing people suggest (like making the elixirs last half a day).

At best, perhaps another elixir could be thrown in that is geared  towards 1 vs. 1 combat? (perhaps giving Abigail some innate armor a la Wigfrid and maybe a little something extra)

[ArubaroBeefalo]

17 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

 

perfect but i would like abigail count as a character for boss fights too

[Mike23Ua]

Abigail is still completely useless vs Bearger. I was really hoping she could be more useful in that fight.

even if it means I need to gather some absurd level of potion ingredients to have that degree of Abby Power.

Another Thing- People need to stop complaining about the Sisturn Sanity Aurora. It’s enough to negate Night time Sanity drain all together.. and all you need to achieve this is 3 Cutstone, 3 Wooden planks, 1 ashes, and 4 Flower Petals.

The TL:DR it’s not as Inferior to Wendy’s old Sanity Station as some people are making it out to be.. the old way actually required ALOT more work to accomplish creating and also probably could of been consider a questionable exploit.

[QuartzBeam]

13 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

perfect but i would like abigail count as a character for boss fights too

New elixir idea: Molotov Cocktail - Abigail does one explosive attack equal to a full minute's worth of her DPS and dies immediately.

[Mike23Ua]

Abigail still dies in 1 hit if I hit her by accident while fighting, reseting her health from 600 back down to 150.. and it removes any potion effects I had applied to her.

If I’m supposed to HELP Abigail in Battle, this needs to be fixed.

She also needs back her aggressive mode (just tone it down so it won’t kill Chester, Gloomer, Tamed Beefalo, Webber’s befriended Spiders, and Maxwell Shadows) but keep it aggressive to Bee’s, Butterfly, Rabbit Etc.