Let's discuss progression one more time (plus randomness)

[Szczuku]

Since JoeW encouraged more discussions about game's future I figured I might as well bring up the topic of progression once more. This time I'll try to give less ideas on what can be added and focus more on why progression should be added into dst.

Let's start with aknowledging on how dst functions right now:

To new players dst is quite hard provided that they're going in blind. If they decide to watch tutorials/read wiki etc then all they need to be a qualified 'experienced player' is some practise. Learning kiting paterns, crockpot recipes, farms designs and all that. Once you learn these, dst can become quite predictible and even dull at times even if you haven't experienced all of its content yet. This is because majority of new content is optional or decorational. Bosses that you need to disturb yourself, long journeys that reward you a statue sketch. You've already seen everything the game can throw at you, the rest you have to find yourself.

Many experienced players here suggested that Klei should add more forced content. The most common response is 'No it'd make the game too hard for begginers'. This is where progression comes into play. It'd allow Klei to add more forced content without making early game too hard for newcomers. 

Progression can occur in 2 ways: actions done or days survived. I believe that both of these ways should be added into the game. 

Now I hear you saying 'What's the point of progression, you'll learn what happens after what and will be bored again'. And that's why I'm putting out an idea of randomness. Thanks to it every playthrough could be different. To give some examples we can already see in game: Antlion (forced content), map's shape, skeletons, locations of salt statues, setpieces. Randomness combined with progression would definitelly spice things up as you wouldn't be sure what your action could've just caused.

Keep in mind that when I'm talking about forced content I do not mean 'Hounds and Deerclops attacks-like content'. Forced content might as well be a small inconvience to the player simmilar to sanity drain of a dead player or Skittersquid running across your screen. Progression could also very well be related to atmosphere and ambiance. 

Remember that when talking about a big change to the game you always have to see beyond what's only written

Now for some examples:

-Seasons receiving new content after you've survived them. If you think adding all of this would make seasons feel overpacked with stuff then the game could pick only one effect for this year which wouln't happen in the next one (unless the game rolls it again)

Spoiler

 

Winter:

• Blizards which cause piles of snow to appear, sometimes blocking cave entrances. Require shovel, could give new resuorce (snow) or spawn a new creatue
• Icebergs float in the sea sometimes with an item, skeleton or a creature inside. At the end of the winter these creatures would be freed and would begin swimming around, existing in the ecosystem.
• Deerclops gets tougher

Spring:

• A small river which would make you wet as you're passing it even with an eyembrella. Doesn't affect structues or path finding
• Flowers or other plants growing to bigger sizes
• Moose/Goose receives an AoE attack

Summer:

• Sunflowers appear. An idea I described here.
• The sea gets drier exposing some new stuff like masts of sunken ships or more rocks
• Magma Biome in the caves 

Autumn:

• Piles of leafs which act simmilar to tumbleweeds
• Rabbits foraging for food
• A wind ambiance and effect. Just a decoration to give even more autumn vibe

 

-Natural Pig villages being more randomized. Wild crops growing here and there. Sometimes a bonefire could be present

-Pigs getting smarter after some time. As in they're able to plant their own wild crops, collect items, create tools and armor. AI also gets smarter of course. Player would either be forced to use other helmets or a new source of pig skin could be added. 

-After visiting Lunar Islands/Assembling the crafting station there'd be like a shockwave that'd indicate a big thing has just happened. An arrival of new critter to the main island. This mob would act differently depanding on the moon phase, not just the full moon. Speaking of it full moons would be more lively now.

-After some time eagle-like birds appear on the main island. Neutral but can be deadly.

-After crafting something at pseudo science station insanity could have more effects. Or a new Shadow Creature that instead of killing you makes your life a nightmare

-After some time the sea gets filled with groups of aggresive pirhana-like fish. If you don't want to deal with them you'll need to do some special stuff

-Defeating the Fuelweaver sets a chain reaction of sorts.

-A small ant-like bugs which are only for decoration and atmosphere

As you can see forced content doesn't have to be a destructive hound wave or a boss visiting you. Progression doesn't have to immediately change your entire gameplay.

Discuss, give your own ideas and if you're against it then do tell why

Tldr: Progression allows forced content without discouraging new players. Forced content doesn't always have to mean a boss arriving at your base. More randomness would spice things up so the game doesn't end up predictible.

[Mike23Ua]

Forced content is a terrible thing.. period. Not trying to sound mean I’ll try my best to explain this in as short of a TL:DR as possible.

I May PERSONALLY enjoy a challenge I came to these forums to literally beg for some more hardcore content, However at the same exact time I have Friends who Still Attack Abigail Or Bernie thinking they’re  hostile  (Yes that does actually happen) they have hard enough time playing this game as Is..

Which is why I Purpose a way for Hardcore Content to Co-Exist in the same world with Casual Content, By means of new & progressively harder to reach locations.. Such as Biomes Out in the ocean that require an experienced player to obtain a certain loot item in order to even LIVE on said Harder Island.. Like a Molting Biome full of Lava Rivers, Fire, and more difficult fire based enemy mobs That literally the ONLY way to survive on this island would be to first obtain for example Dragonfly Armor..

A Newer Player will not ever even be able to step foot in this Area because they can’t obtain the Armor REQUIRED to go there.. But at the same time it allows my friends to enjoy simple things like Carrat Racing & Fishing on the Main Lands Meanwhile I am in the same game with them (and can easily meet back up with them to provide them with items I find to help make their lives easier) while Quite Literally BURNING ALIVE in a Biome where summer overheating has spiraled out of Control and without heavy fire resistant gear I am going to die..

TL:DR content that effects the entire game world only separates players from hardcore elitist survival expert & less skilled survivors just trying to enjoy some casual gameplay.

[Canis]

Yes to everything. We saw with Singleplayer Hamlet on why optional content sucks, so let's hope the same mistake doesn't get made twice.

I feel like forced content should enable itself after day count, because then you can't just... not do anything. So ultimately it is *forced*, but you have a grace period.

[MondayNight]

Progression can't happen ad infinitum, only in 1-2-3 steps. Now we are at the point when not even Step 1 is present. Depending oh how large-of-a content each step might bring, we are talking months or even years of developed game-material. Don't know how realistic that might be, so that's why I for one am a fan of  "1 step-event incrementation of stakes" akin first AFw take-down, amping up survival difficulty with one new level (for now, once more - realistically) - in this way we separate newbies/noobs or relaxed-session players from a perceived "hard mode" all enumerated above will bring upon worlds. Randomness indeed can be a very good ally in mentioned endeavor - and I like the practical examples you give.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

more variety of set piece and mobs (even with clasicc loot) pls

 

blizzards and cooler winter will make cloths core so im in

[Mike23Ua]

No one is listening are they?

If I kill Fuelweaver & that resets the world adding new much harder content to my game how can my less experienced friends still join & play with me without feeling completely discouraged from playing altogether?

I dislike the Idea Of any content that changes the entire game world.

Maybe after X amount of days survived.. possibly? but even that doesn’t seem like a very Multiplayer Friendly Idea.

Inaccessible areas that require you to have learned the knowledge of even going there first.. that’s what I would like to see.

[Mr.Tarunio]

Spoiler

The pressure people can put on indie devs :/

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

No one is listening are they?

If I kill the Fuelweaver and doing that resets the world to add new much harder content into my world (it doesn’t but I’m using that as an example..) how the heck are my not so experienced friends ever going to be able to join my world and play with me without feeling completely discouraged from playing the game altogether?

So No.. I do not like the Idea Of any content that changes the entire game world itself as a whole.

Maybe after X amount of days survived.. possibly? but even given that- This doesn’t seem like a very Multiplayer Friendly Idea.

Inaccessible areas that require you to have learned the knowledge of even going there first.. that’s what I would like to see.

there is more save slots than 1

[Frontente]

50 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Now for some examples:

 

-Seasons receiving new content after you've survived them. If you think adding all of this would make seasons feel overpacked with stuff then the game could pick only one effect for this year which wouln't happen in the next one (unless the game rolls it again)

The season ideas are really good. I would love to see them in the actual game

[Szczuku]

27 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

No one is listening are they?

I could ask you the very same question...

In my original post (OP) I said multiple times that forced content doesn't eaqual a Deerlops or a hound wave. Yet you only see it from that perspective. What is more the ideas you give are exactly what most experienced players (that you mentioned) dislike. A content that you very well might not know even exists. An island you have to swim to. A boss you have to trigger.

Klei has already proven that they can handle things that I mentioned in OP. A new player on a 600+ days server isn't attacked by 20 hounds.

Also...

Klei added Antlion. That's forced content

[Mike23Ua]

On 2/13/2020 at 2:41 PM, thetricker1 said:

there is more save slots than 1

But why do I need that though? If there was a difficulty option that drastically changes the way certain mobs in the game act such as simply giving Spider Warriors the Venom of Shipwrecked.. then maybe I could see a point.

But how will people joining my world know that I’ve triggered X entire world altering event to make Y world content that much harder??? 

They won’t, and they’ll be in for a bad experience.

On 2/13/2020 at 3:01 PM, Szczuku said:

ideas you give are what most experienced players dislike. content that you might as well not know even exists. islands you have to boat to or A boss you have to trigger.

I have friends I want to play with & enjoy the game with without being BORED OUT MY MIND at how easy everything they struggle with is.. while at the same time, being able to travel to my own much harder area within that same world & still feel challenged myself.

[Moonatik]

I would like to compare it with NG+ in other games, or what should be NG+ in some games. 

Year 2 could be act like a NG+, by adding some weather differences, like you suggest. There's tons of little details which could change year after year. The thing is to not have the same season twice in a row. 

I'm waiting for Elden Ring. As I loved the only Souls I played, the 3, I wished NG+ could be different in some ways. Especially when you have a cycle idea, with different possibles endings. Something like that: Ending A lead to Ending B in the NG+ but won't never lead you to the same ending. A lead to B, B lead to C or D, etc.. 

I would like to see something like that. My 2nd winter won't never be like the 1st. What if I decide to let live the bearger, or if I kill the antlion the 1st year ? Few cases could beat the predictible. That means ennemies, weather, even bosses, you'll never see on the 1st year, or even the 2 first years.

Then everything you'll decide, like killing the fuelweaver, or constructing the lunar craft station why not. That would start something but you'll have the power to decide when.

[Mike23Ua]

On 2/13/2020 at 2:18 PM, Canis said:

Yes to everything. We saw with Singleplayer Hamlet on why optional content sucks, so let's hope the same mistake doesn't get made twice.

I feel like forced content should enable itself after day count, because then you can't just... not do anything. So ultimately it is *forced*, but you have a grace period.

Have you played State of Decay 2? A game where the more days your alive the harder the world becomes to live within until you literally have no choice but to abandon it and move to a less infested town.

This is exactly what your setting this idea up to become, Something that progressively gets harder and harder over time to the point that you’ll eventually give up all hope & delete your entire world to start over.

[Electroely]

I think if new challenges were to be more intrusive, there should be a separate game-mode for them. Kind of like how Survival and Endless are two different game modes, maybe a fourth game mode could be added to give the game the kind of challenge some players would like. Separating it into an optional setting in world generation would allow the players that enjoy how the game currently is to keep playing it as is, and would allow Klei to make major changes to the game play to introduce extra difficulty. A server's game mode is visible on the server selection screen, and filters exist to make sure you join servers with the game mode you want.

I don't personally think the game has any problems considering difficulty or progression. I've been having fun playing on various worlds, new and old, and playing around with all the content updates have added over the years. I've seen a lot of people complain that the optional content is optional, but the way I see it, the majority of the game is optional if you play a certain way. I think a lot of people stick too much to the meta, and unless new content becomes part of said meta (like stone fruit), they'll basically pretend it doesn't exist.
Not to say that balance isn't important or anything, though. I think all the content in the game should be balanced so that even if it's not part of the meta, it's at least good enough to be viable.
Ocean fishing is an example of viable, optional content. You can get more than enough food while out in the sea if you go fishing, especially if you find deep bass shoals. You can come back with lots of fish, about as much as our boat can hold. And the lack of hound attacks, giant attacks and antlion attacks let you fish with relative peace (Skittersquids and the Malbatross being the few things that disturb said peace).
An example of something that's not good enough to be viable and should probably get buffed is salt crystals. Saltboxes are good as-is, but the spoilage restoration and seasoning salt effects are way too weak to be worth the effort. I've only ever made use of them in very specific situations.

Also, for discussing ideas, suggestions, and feedback, there's the Suggestions & Feedback sub-forum.

[sudoku]

1 hour ago, Szczuku said:

-Pigs getting smarter after some time. As in they're able to plant their own wild crops, collect items, create tools and armor. AI also gets smarter of course. Player would either be forced to use other helmets or a new source of pig skin could be added. 

I'd like to expand on this idea, to not just pigs but bosses themselves where bosses develop tendencies similar to tamed beelalo and pets where different versions exist with modified stats.  In terms of encounter, it could either be as simple as having an equal chance to spawn as default bosses, acting as more of a variant, or there could be certain in game conditions that affect the spawn rate. For example, killing a boss within a quick time frame might result in the next encounter being of the frenzied type. The tendencies would work across all bosses in the game (maybe minus the raid ones) in their simplest form, but if Klei really wanted to go full force they could also give each boss a new attack/ability, as well as a slight variation in their appearance, however I realize the amount of work that could entail.

Some examples of boss tendencies could include:   

Frenzied:  gains attack damage, movement speed and an additional attack, but no longer aggros structures/food.

Hardened: loses movement speed, but gains resistance to elemental damage and the ability to block player attacks.

 

 

[Axelocke]

I think some more resource variations would be fun and would make for a nice change of pace, more variations to how the map generates/branches would be cool too.  

More little effects to give the world life (cosmetic wind that blows trees, grass, maybe some unpickable cosmetic grass strands in the ground?) would put a refreshing spin on the world's look and feel too, I think.

The grass could be killed upon digging it's associated turf with a pitchfork. 

And on the topic of progression, I'd really like to see existing mobs progress, and what I mean is like, if pigs could expand/start projects, or even if they actually left their villages to explore, perhaps prepare for a war on merms, etc. Just in general, some new things that can drastically change the world over time would be really neat!

 

Here's some shoddy examples I drew with a mouse 

(Perhaps the Merms could start building a farmers kingdom once a king is established?)

[ArubaroBeefalo]

22 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But why do I need that though? If there was a difficulty option that drastically changes the way certain mobs in the game act such as simply giving Spider Warriors the Venomous Damage over a Time Bite Effect they have in Shipwrecked.. then maybe I could see a point.

But how are the people joining my world ever going to know that I’ve triggered X entire game world altering event to make Y surface world content that much harder???

They won’t, and they’ll be in for a bad experience.

The General Idea is that I have friends I want to play with and enjoy the game with without being BORED OUT OF MY MIND at how laughably easy everything they’re struggling with is.. while at the same exact time, being able to travel to my own much harder area within that same world and still feel challenged myself.

Dont Starve Together is a game about playing TOGETHER right? 

then teach them. Dude, its like other games, dont go with your lvl80 character with your newbie friend

The thing is that is ridiculous that you can survive with the stuff that you had farm in the first days. Every world with more than 200 days become tedious, only farming for the next optional raid boss in the rotation. Even with this changes who will die? you have telltale hearts easy and life giving amulets that are so cheap to craft (srly, life giving amulet should be reworked, its so difficult to perma die)

[sudoku]

Just now, thetricker1 said:

then teach them. Dude, its like other games, dont go with your lvl80 character with your newbie friend

The thing is that is ridiculous that you can survive with the stuff that you had farm in the first days. Every world with more than 200 days become tedious, only farming for the next optional raid boss in the rotation. Even with this changes who will die? you have telltale hearts easy and life giving amulets that are so cheap to craft (srly, life giving amulet should be reworked, its so difficult to perma die)

Also progression based mobs and bosses could have an adjective in front of their name, similar to when something is wet or etc. So poisonous spiders would either have a graphical change and a name change or both.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, sudoku said:

Also progression based mobs and bosses could have an adjective in front of their name, similar to when something is wet or etc. So poisonous spiders would either have a graphical change and a name change or both.

its not that bad die for venom, its the goal of this game. I laugh a lot the 1st time i fight a venom snake in SW, i die and i still here playing

[Mike23Ua]

On 2/13/2020 at 3:30 PM, thetricker1 said:

then teach them. Dude, its like other games, dont go with your lvl80 character with your newbie friend

The thing is that is ridiculous that you can survive with the stuff that you had farm in the first days. Every world with more than 200 days become tedious, only farming for the next optional raid boss in the rotation. Even with this changes who will die? you have telltale hearts easy and life giving amulets that are so cheap to craft (srly, life giving amulet should be reworked, its so difficult to perma die)

Wait you actually use those? Well there’s your problem right there!

I don’t use self revive items there’s a lot of items in this game that I have fun NOT Using honestly.. but personal preference aside- you are right some things need to change.

such as the Miners Hat. Once you have one there’s literally no reason at all to ever craft a Lantern. So maybe have all the existing Ingredients to create a Miners Hat PLUS one Lantern thrown to craft?

At first they didn’t do this because some people hosted Caveless worlds without Access to Glowbulb. But now that Skittersquid drop them on the surface world it is a small change that could slightly Nerf them.

[sudoku]

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

such as the Miners Hat. Once you have one there’s literally no reason at all to ever craft or use a Lantern again... So maybe perhaps have all the Already existing Ingredients to create a Miners Hat PLUS one Lantern thrown into the recipe?

Nerf the Already OP Miners Hat.

I dont think miners hat is op over lanterns. Its two different options. Miners hats are better for exploring and gathering resources in the dark, whereas a lantern is better for combat situations in dark.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wait you actually use those? Well there’s your problem right there!

I don’t use them.. and I have fun NOT using them.. there’s a lot of items in this game that I have fun NOT Using honestly.. but personal preference aside- you are right some things do need to change.

such as the Miners Hat. Once you have one there’s literally no reason at all to ever craft or use a Lantern again... So maybe perhaps have all the Already existing Ingredients to create a Miners Hat PLUS one Lantern thrown into the recipe?

At first they didn’t do this because some people hosted Caveless worlds without Access to Glowbulb.

But now that Skittersquid drop them on the surface world it is a small little change that could slightly Nerf the Already OP Miners Hat.

wtf dude, you are complaining about you dont want the game to be harder because you want to play with friends and i told you that there is ways to revive your friends. 

[bruhmoment23]

@Szczuku The idea and examples you provided are great! But i would like to make some questions about the year rotation. How would moon cycles behave after each year passes? Would they change aswell and be more frequent? Same goes for diseases, wildfires and frog rains. Could there be a somekind of enhanced disease that would affect the world as it progresses?

 

[sudoku]

1 minute ago, bruhmoment23 said:

Same goes for diseases. Could there be a somekind of enhanced disease that would affect the world as it progresses?

 

i know the system is controversial, but i really wish they had expanded on disease. It would be cool if you had to craft a repellent in order to prevent disease and a cure in order to get rid of it. Being able to replant plants and infinitley harvest them is pretty powerful so I think there should be more systems in place to counter that. 

[bruhmoment23]

Just now, sudoku said:

i know the system is controversial, but i really wish they had expanded on disease. It would be cool if you had to craft a repellent in order to prevent disease and a cure in order to get rid of it. Being able to replant plants and infinitley harvest them is pretty powerful so I think there should be more systems in place to counter that. 

Yeah that sounds alot more interesting and challenging. Would be fun if the disease could also affect our survivors in various ways, maybe not as annoying as hay fever in hamlet, but something that is both deadly and hard to just simply ignore.