Wagstaff Villain Or Victim?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

On 7/2/2020 at 12:12 AM, Sunset Skye said:

Personally my theory is that Wagstaff got taken to the constant long before any of the other characters

but he can be seen in the winonas trailer and charlie was already in the throne

[-Nick-]

5 hours ago, thetricker1 said:

but he can be seen in the winonas trailer and charlie was already in the throne

Well he doesnt wear yellow gloves, he also went into the constant way before winona, if he came along with her, he would be in dst

[Theukon-dos]

On 2/6/2020 at 3:35 PM, SkylordElberich said:

Honestly, I would say a victim. Considering his age, it's not impossible that he lived through the horrors of the Great War (WWI to you and me) and his desire to obtain the nightmare throne is likely fueled by wanting to prevent similar wars from happening.

the Voxola factory burned down only a year after the end of the Great war. So he would have been too old to be fighting on the front lines. However, He was probably designing and building weapons for the millitary. It's never stated, but

>It would explain why he's interested in the millitary capacity of nightmare fuel

>He takes heavy inspiration from Albert Einstein, who helped work on the Manhatten project.

[SkylordElberich]

2 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

he would have been too old to be fighting on the front lines.

I see. In that case, replace 'lived through the horrors of the Great War' to 'lost a son in the Great War'. That way, we have an explanation for WX-78 as well!

[DavePlaysDST]

On 2/6/2020 at 5:02 PM, GetNerfedOn said:

First, Wagstaff isn't evil per se, his intentions could even be considered noble as his exam quotes state his desire to "revolutionize the world". He wants technological progress and believes it can be found even in the most sinister of ways such as the Nightmare Throne and Nightmare Fuel.

Second, Wagstaff cannot be possibly be considered a victim IMO as he willingly has thrust himself into the Constant and even enjoys satiating his curiosity there, to the point that he is outright fascinated by being bitten by Charlie and experiencing death among other responses.

Third, I don't get why people say Wagstaff is just a projection, especially when they use his distortion effect as evidence:

    - First, the distortion  effect never was a direct implication of his being a projection in the first place. 

   - Second, if the distortion effect were a sign of Wagstaff's presence, his projection would probably have been immaterial/just an image. 

   - Owing to this, it wouldn't be feasible to call Wagstaff's manifestation in the Constant as a projection because he's tangible and:

           - is still pretty vulnerable to and can experience physical pain, hunger and psychic assaults from the Constant

           - is still limited by his eyesight and poor stomach

           - still needs to travel encumbered and on foot

   - Were he actually a projection Wagstaff would have no need to experience all these encumbrances, or would have designed his projection to not have all these encumbrances. It's rather counterintuitive considering that he's a scientist who strives for efficiency in his works.

   - Also, there's the fact that Wagstaff himself is missing from Earth. If he truly were controlling a projection, he would still be in Earth.

   - If one states that Wagstaff were controlling a projection in the Constant after he was brought in, it would also be counterintuitive given that he needs to give full attention to his projection throughout the day. Which would:

        - make him starve himself as he won't eat because he's busy controlling the projection, or,

        - make him especially vulnerable to monster attacks from Hounds, Giants and Charlie especially because he's busy controlling his projection, or,

        - make him have to setup lots of devices to protect him, which will eventually fail as he will eventually dedicate all his time to the projection, which leads to his machines either failing due to lack of maintenance, or being destroyed by hounds/giants/Charlie.

i thought somewhere in wagstaffs files it said projection, also just because theres a projection of him doesn’t mean... i dont know what im saying.. his life could be tied to a projection like he literally turned himself INTO a projection which is why it needs to eat and stuff, or my personal theory that he’s living on the moon, and somehow got teh stuff to make a projection in the constant somewhere, and is using the projection to get food and stuff.

[Mike23Ua]

Who was in the Constant first though?? Maxwell Or Wagstaff- It is Clear that Wagstaff has had multiple means of accessing the Constant, in DS he was Portrayed as a Holographic Image, He then created WX-78 to further explore the world for him before FINALLY being sucked in for Real this time in Winona’s short video where we can clearly see that he had built his own portal into the world.. (Perhaps this was how he got his Projection and WX into it the first time) and he himself was too scared to enter?

But.. at the very end of Single Player Don’t Starve 

Spoiler

When Wilson Shows up and has to Free Maxwell from the Influence of the Nightmare Throne he has to first shut off 

A Voxola Music device (that) can visibly be seen in the scene.

 

[GetNerfedOn]

13 hours ago, DavePlaysDST said:

i thought somewhere in wagstaffs files it said projection, also just because theres a projection of him doesn’t mean... i dont know what im saying.. his life could be tied to a projection like he literally turned himself INTO a projection which is why it needs to eat and stuff, or my personal theory that he’s living on the moon, and somehow got teh stuff to make a projection in the constant somewhere, and is using the projection to get food and stuff.

True, his distortion effect file is labelled projection, but as aforementioned maintaining a projection/hologram takes too much time which would leave Wagstaff without means of self-care or self-defense in case of threats. Also, as aforementioned, the projection/hologram itself should be intangible and unffected by physical harm, hunger, insanity, poison (SW), or Hayfever (H) because if the distortion effect is to be taken as evidence, it would mean Wagstaff is made of light and therefore intangible.

Of course this is my line of thinking, take it with a grain of salt.

[me real life]

16 hours ago, thetricker1 said:

but he can be seen in the winonas trailer and charlie was already in the throne

Charlie wasn't on the throne yet in that short, though. In the New Reign cinematic where Charlie takes the throne, her two halves fight against each other before eventually fusing into the current Charlie design with the red feather. In Next of Kin, however, Charlie's two halves are still fighting, which means it likely happened while Maxwell was still on the throne.

14 hours ago, Nickolai said:

Well he doesnt wear yellow gloves, he also went into the constant way before winona, if he came along with her, he would be in dst

Time flows differently in the Constant, and such. People are pulled into the Constant from all sorts of different time periods, yet the cast we're used to all got there around the same time. Winona's the exception, but she actually got there later despite being pulled in while Maxwell was still on the throne.
My guess for the lack of gloves is because asymmetrical character designs don't look so good with how the DS series does character animations. It's the same reason Woodlegs has a set of two wooden legs rather than one. If Wagstaff only had one yellow glove, it would flip back and forth whenever he goes left and right, since the animations for going left/right are actually just one animation that gets flipped.

[GetNerfedOn]

15 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Who was in the Constant first though?? Maxwell Or Wagstaff- It is Clear that Wagstaff has had multiple means of accessing the Constant, in DS he was Portrayed as a Holographic Image, He then created WX-78 to further explore the world for him before FINALLY being sucked in for Real this time in Winona’s short video where we can clearly see that he had built his own portal into the world.. (Perhaps this was how he got his Projection and WX into it the first time) and he himself was too scared to enter?

But.. at the very end of Single Player Don’t Starve 

  Reveal hidden contents

When Wilson Shows up and has to Free Maxwell from the Influence of the Nightmare Throne he has to first shut off 

A Voxola Music device (that) can visibly be seen in the scene.

 

First, there is no evidence showing that WX came before Wagstaff.

Second, Wagstaff came after Maxwell because

- maxwell greets you in the beginning of Ds and RoG

- you can finish Adventure mode using Wagstaff, encountering Maxwell on the throne.

Third, shutting off the Gramophone in the end of adventure mode does not free Maxwell. Its the Nightmare lock which does the trick.

Fourth, aside from the statement that Wagstaff went missing the night of the fire (which may also mean that he only went missing on Earth and not dragged into the Constant) it is doubtful that the man sucked into the portal was Wagstaff because of their missing yellow glove. Wagstaff doesnt have that. But he may have discarded them due to animation constraints (thanks, @Sunset Skye)

[Mike23Ua]

From a Gameplay Perspective a Hologram that negates 92% of the games challenges would just be beyond boring.

So who cares that a Hologram needs to Eat, Rest & Stay Alive..

[GetNerfedOn]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

From a Gameplay Perspective a Hologram that negates 92% of the games challenges would just be beyond boring.

So who cares that a Hologram needs to Eat, Rest & Stay Alive..

My point is that the wagstaff we find ingame is not a hologram.

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

My point is that the wagstaff we find ingame is not a hologram.

If the gloved hand that gets sucked into the portal in Winona’s Short is supposed to be Wagstaff, As everyone says- Then he was Either using Holograms OR He had a Way of going into and getting back out of the Constant at all times..

(Whichever the case may actually be your certainly not helping convince me that the dudes NOT a serious Villain.)

But Just for a second.. Imagine that in your mind though, That If Wagstaff ACTUALLY Could Enter and Exit the Constant at anytime he pleases, he’s probably been lurking in the shadows behind a Bush Hat or Something watching and Observing Poor Wilson die over and over and over again in many horrible ways, Intrigued by his many possible ways of Dying but Yet Wilson still has the Will to keep struggling to escape all at the same time that This Dude could’ve helped him get out of there all along?!? 

VILLAIN.

[GetNerfedOn]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

If the gloved hand that gets sucked into the portal in Winona’s Short is supposed to be Wagstaff, As everyone says- Then he was Either using Holograms OR He had a Way of going into and getting back out of the Constant at all times..

(Whichever the case may actually be your certainly not helping convince me that the dudes NOT a serious Villain.)

But Just for a second.. Imagine that in your mind though, That If Wagstaff ACTUALLY Could Enter and Exit the Constant at anytime he pleases, he’s probably been lurking in the shadows behind a Bush Hat or Something watching and Observing Poor Wilson die over and over and over again in many horrible ways, Intrigued by his many possible ways of Dying but Yet Wilson still has the Will to keep struggling to escape all at the same time that This Dude could’ve helped him get out of there all along?!? 

VILLAIN.

 - How is the guy with the yellow gloves a piece of evidence that Wagstaff can travel between worlds/is using a hologram? Please explain further.

 - Can you provide evidence that he actually is using a hologram apart from the distoetion effect which I have challenged?

 - What if Wagstaff himself was also being assaulted by hounds, starving, going insane? Would he really put his life or the lives of those he was observing above himself? Or would he not try to prioritize his survival and innovations?

 - Just because Wagstaff does not help Wilson/whoever does not mean he is a villain. Nobody is entitled to attend to the welfare of a total stranger.

[Mike23Ua]

1- If the gloved hand in Winona’s Short is Wagstaff then he obviously built his own portal to explore inside the Constant with.

Wagstaff also created WX78 to further explore the Constant and they have yet to actually meet one another in game, so obviously it’s kind of like NASA sending Robots to other Planets before going there themselves.

2- Unfortunately because Wagstaff isn’t available outside of PC I can’t give you an answer on “Evidence of being Hologram.” but if his image and sounds distort when taking Damage I’m going to safely say Hologram.

3 & 4- Assuming Wagstaff built his own Portal as I had explained in 1, Then he could have lead Wilson to an Exit point Somewhere at some point right?

 

The way I see it is he is/was “Amused” at watching Wilson or Whoever die over and over and over again when he could’ve helped them escape all along.

 

UNLESS and here’s the tricky part- Winona and Wagstaff got pulled into the Constant around or During Wilson’s time frame too but for whatever reason they just landed there much later then everyone else.

Which Wouldn’t make any sense at all because 1- Winona gets pulled in after fixing her boss (Wagstaffs) Portal by being tricked by her Sister who is Already at this point wigging out between wanting to hurt or help people, something we don’t see her do until AFTER she free’s Wilson from the Thrones Influence.

Which leads to 2- If Winona & Wagstaff Was pulled in at the same time as Wilson.. then they would’ve been in MAXWELLS Constant.. prior to Charlie taking over and Wilson & Maxwell getting together to create the Jury Rigged Portal Together before everyone enters through it in the same area with Wilson and Maxwell and the Jury Rigged Portal is then Destroyed by Charlie and Replaced with the Florid Postern.

I am still totally siding with Villain as my vote, but since he’s only available on PC, I can’t judge him based on any of his quotes in game.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

I think that wagstaff is the person in winonas trailer. There is a portal and who has knowledge to built it? Also he says something like "im arrive where i wanted" so that fits with having his own portal. But i dont think he meets wilson or know about him, its a big place and a lot of bussiness to do

The effects when he is wounded... makes think he is an hologram, if not there is no sense to put that effects and klei is not that kind of people who put things just because

[GetNerfedOn]

12 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

1- If the gloved hand in Winona’s Short is Wagstaff then he obviously built his own portal to explore inside the Constant with.

Wagstaff also created WX78 to further explore the Constant and they have yet to actually meet one another in game, so obviously it’s kind of like NASA sending Robots to other Planets before going there themselves.

Then that means he explored the constant himself and has no need of a hologram. Plus the distortion effect can be explained that the Constant wants him out because he wants to exploit it, and it attacks his very being down to the atoms when he is hurt, making him vibrate and seem like a flickering projection.

12 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

2- Unfortunately because Wagstaff isn’t available outside of PC I can’t give you an answer on “Evidence of being Hologram.” but if his image and sounds distort when taking Damage I’m going to safely say Hologram.

 

See explanation above. Since you're arguing based on assumption, and i also argue based on assumption that his distortion effect is the constant attacking him let's agree to disagree here.

Still, none of what you said disproves my theory that he isn't a hologram because again holograms do no need to eat and cannot be poisoned/driven insane/harmed/hungry.

12 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

3 & 4- Assuming Wagstaff built his own Portal as I had explained in 1, Then he could have lead Wilson to an Exit point Somewhere at some point right?

 

The way I see it is he is/was “Amused” at watching Wilson or Whoever die over and over and over again when he could’ve helped them escape all along.

 

UNLESS and here’s the tricky part- Winona and Wagstaff got pulled into the Constant around or During Wilson’s time frame too but for whatever reason they just landed there much later then everyone else.

Which Wouldn’t make any sense at all because 1- Winona gets pulled in after fixing her boss (Wagstaffs) Portal by being tricked by her Sister who is Already at this point wigging out between wanting to hurt or help people, something we don’t see her do until AFTER she free’s Wilson from the Thrones Influence.

Which leads to 2- If Winona & Wagstaff Was pulled in at the same time as Wilson.. then they would’ve been in MAXWELLS Constant.. prior to Charlie taking over and Wilson & Maxwell getting together to create the Jury Rigged Portal Together before everyone enters through it in the same area with Wilson and Maxwell and the Jury Rigged Portal is then Destroyed by Charlie and Replaced with the Florid Postern.

I am still totally siding with Villain as my vote, but since he’s only available on PC, I can’t judge him based on any of his quotes in game.

As I have mentioned before Wagstaff is in Maxwell's Constant as you Maxwell greets Wagstaff upon entry to RoG/Vanilla DS, and you can reach MAxwell in Adventure mode.

That would mean that, if canon things are considered, Wagstaff was nowhere near Wilson when he beat Adventure mode and defeated Maxwell and took the throne for himself

A quote that could implicate Wagstaff is "evil" is "I've found it! The portal to link all worlds! The throne of ultimate power!" when he examines the Nightmare throne. But this does not imply that he wants to use the Nightmare throne to hurt anyone - if anything, he wants to use the Throne's power to revolutionize the Earth, therefore helping people.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

 Plus the distortion effect can be explained that the Constant wants him out because he wants to exploit it, and it attacks his very being down to the atoms when he is hurt, making him vibrate and seem like a flickering projection.

then he will become plasma and die :/

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, thetricker1 said:

then he will become plasma and die :/

Oh my god... maybe that’s what all the Gashalts are, people the Constant Rejected letting be there. Guess now I know why Wagstaff isn’t in DST at least..

[CameoAppearance]

I don't think Wagstaff is evil, I just think he's dangerously reckless and doesn't understand the corrupting nature of shadow magic. He is power-hungry, but he wants to use supernatural power to improve the world rather than for selfish or actively malevolent reasons. He doesn't know enough to stay away from using nightmare fuel as a large-scale power source and isn't cautious enough to avoid using it just in case. He's not a villain; he's a talented fool.

I'm not sure whether the Wagstaff we play as is the real Wagstaff -- maybe he's glitching out for a different reason, like the Constant rejecting his presence -- but if he is indeed a remote-controlled projection I think it'd be more accurate to call him a replica or an avatar than a hologram. Hologram suggests that he's made of intangible light, which clearly isn't the case; he can pick stuff up, get injured, get rained on, get poisoned, be affected by temperature, have allergic reactions to plant matter in the air, and needs to eat instead of being powered indefinitely by the projector.

[Mike23Ua]

The poll speaks for itself, there are more votes that the dude is Villain then there are that he’s not.

Maybe more lore will change that opinion, or.. perhaps even solidify it.

[CameoAppearance]

9 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The poll speaks for itself, there are more votes that the dude is Villain then there are that he’s not.

Maybe more lore will change that opinion, or.. perhaps even solidify it.

Er... that only applies to the "Victim" option. There are more votes for "Don't know, there's not enough lore" than for the villain or victim options combined.

[Mike23Ua]

So I wanted to see if it was ever actually revealed as to WHO or WHAT this actually is.. Known in game only as the Shadow Watcher.

It doesn’t Attack you it just stands there watching as a Mysterious Shadow when you start losing Sanity.

During the fight with Fuelweaver this entity appears more than once..

However I could only come up with two “Possible” entities that fit its shape.

Wagstaff is Defiantly evil y’all xD 

[GetNerfedOn]

14 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

So I wanted to see if it was ever actually revealed as to WHO or WHAT this actually is.. Known in game only as the Shadow Watcher.

It doesn’t Attack you it just stands there watching as a Mysterious Shadow when you start losing Sanity.

During the fight with Fuelweaver this entity appears more than once..

However I could only come up with two “Possible” entities that fit its shape.

Wagstaff is Defiantly evil y’all xD 

They dont even fit their shape. Not even close. Also Wagstaff can see the shadow watcher ingame, which means that they are two separate entities. Also, the votes state that morepeople believe tha there isnt too much evidence to judge.

Don't interpret poll results just to suit your ideas. This isnt the first time this has happened.

[Mike23Ua]

38 minutes ago, GetNerfedOn said:

Also, the votes state that morepeople believe tha there isnt too much evidence to judge.

While this is true, there’s still more votes that he’s a villain then there are that he is a victim. 

Maybe more Lore will change that opinion, or perhaps even Solidify it.

But in the Meantime.. I’m pretty much 150% Convinced the Shadow Watcher is Trade Inn Guy. And I’m about to provide some pretty solid evidence that lead me to this theory.

Convince me otherwise.

.

[GetNerfedOn]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

While this is true, there’s still more votes that he’s a villain then there are that he is a victim. 

Maybe more Lore will change that opinion, or perhaps even Solidify it.

But in the Meantime.. I’m pretty much 150% Convinced the Shadow Watcher is Trade Inn Guy. And I’m about to provide some pretty solid evidence that lead me to this theory.

Convince me otherwise.

.

First, inn keeper is robust while watcher is thin.

By your logic, number 1 could refer to the eyes of all of the characters

Shadow watcher's number 2 is a strand of hair while innkeepr's number 2 is a beefalo nose. How are they similar?

I dont get why you're comparing 3 and 4. Shadow watcher's hair is not in keeper's cape.

(Im pretty sure that despite this you'll still stick to your beliefs over objective evidence.)