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Wolfgang Rework


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11 hours ago, Jessie223 said:

i feel like you're arguing against toros before even reading his posts

again: he assumed that the baseline was an average person, since wolfgang is kind of the only visibly athletic character

You don't think Wigfrid is athletic?  As a method actor of her calibur I could only imagine she is quite strong - and being lighter, would logically be the faster of the two.

Also - Wolfgang's legs don't grow when his size changes implying he may be missing leg day.

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Finally - all of my reading implies that when it comes to people who need to be fast - the competition skews twoards lighter people.  Strongman don't even have a record for sprints... because they're strongmen.  They aren't the fastest sprinters.  What they excell at is carrying heavy loads without slowing down.  As such it makes little sense for a strongman character to receive a speed boost.  Mabye an explosive jump, or a brief sprint, but certainly not a constant speed boost.

In response to @ShadowDuelist - according to this informal pole: Wolfgang is mained by only 3.83% of the polled population, and only 12.44% of people polled stated the reason for playing their main character was because their mechanics improved their gameplay.  Meanwhile 30% of stated they mained a character because they were fun and 20% replied it was their personality.

Such numbers would indicate that Wolfgang might easily lose a "strong mechanic" like a speed boost in favor of a "fun mechanic" like actually pumping weights to change to strong form (perhaps burning his hunger when pumping) rather than a passive hunger trigger.  ie there is plenty of room for a rework, and I'd trust Klei to change it however they wanted.  They're track record with reworks is pretty good in my books.

 

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1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Such numbers would indicate that Wolfgang might easily lose a "strong mechanic" like a speed boost in favor of a "fun mechanic" like actually pumping weights to change to strong form (perhaps burning his hunger when pumping) rather than a passive hunger trigger.  ie there is plenty of room for a rework, and I'd trust Klei to change it however they wanted.  They're track record with reworks is pretty good in my books.

Oh I wouldnt mind, I barely play Wolfgang, but I must insist, you make Wolfgang slow and there is gonna be trouble in the Klei family forums :D Hopefully I'm wrong.

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3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

You don't think Wigfrid is athletic?  As a method actor of her calibur I could only imagine she is quite strong - and being lighter, would logically be the faster of the two.

Also - Wolfgang's legs don't grow when his size changes implying he may be missing leg day.

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Finally - all of my reading implies that when it comes to people who need to be fast - the competition skews twoards lighter people.  Strongman don't even have a record for sprints... because they're strongmen.  They aren't the fastest sprinters.  What they excell at is carrying heavy loads without slowing down.  As such it makes little sense for a strongman character to receive a speed boost.  Mabye an explosive jump, or a brief sprint, but certainly not a constant speed boost.

In response to @ShadowDuelist - according to this informal pole: Wolfgang is mained by only 3.83% of the polled population, and only 12.44% of people polled stated the reason for playing their main character was because their mechanics improved their gameplay.  Meanwhile 30% of stated they mained a character because they were fun and 20% replied it was their personality.

Such numbers would indicate that Wolfgang might easily lose a "strong mechanic" like a speed boost in favor of a "fun mechanic" like actually pumping weights to change to strong form (perhaps burning his hunger when pumping) rather than a passive hunger trigger.  ie there is plenty of room for a rework, and I'd trust Klei to change it however they wanted.  They're track record with reworks is pretty good in my books.

 

It’s pretty obvious at this point you have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to athletes or athleticism.

I tried to gently explain that your concept of how these things work is wrong, and yet you persist.

I was a varsity athlete in high school in 3 sports (cross country, swimming, track) and still lift 3-5 days a week.  For a while I worked as a personal trainer (certified through the American College of Sports Medicine).

Anyone who has ever been or worked with athletes knows men have on average a huge advantage in strength, size, speed, and endurance and this is demonstrated by men having better records in all races of all distances at every level of competition.

Specific to the 100m dash, the women’s world record is 10.5. Most state records are better than the women’s world record as are the top 22 finishers from this year’s NCAA division 1 championships.

https://dt8v5llb2dwhs.cloudfront.net/NCAA/001-1_compiled.htm

It’s fair to assume every one of those men would be able to move more weight in all of the standard powerlifting lifts.

Assuming that Wigfrid is athletic is not a well-supported conclusion though we could expect that a method actor would get in better shape from training than someone who doesn’t exercise at all.

Given the average difference between men and women, how weight training translates to greater speed, and that we have every reason to believe that mighty Wolfgang is more athletic than Wigfrid we have every reason to believe that he is considerably faster than she is.

Your initial argument was that strong people are slower.  That’s clearly disproven by nfl linebackers being strong and fast.

Olympic sprinters are faster than powerlifters because upper body mass obviously works against the speed gains, and powerlifters train for power, not speed.  Powerlifters also don’t have the luxury of ignoring upper body strength but Usain Bolt absolutely has stronger legs than just about everyone but powerlifters.

Wolfgang is the only survivor who is obviously an athlete, so as a baseline we would expect him to be stronger and faster.  Wigfrid is almost certainly the strongest female survivor but there is a vast difference between speed for male and female athletes and while she is strong she’s nowhere near mighty wolfgang strong.  It’s unlikely that she trains for sprinting either, which means wolfgang’s stronger legs and higher testosterone will give him a huge advantage.

Usain bolt is 6’5” 205+ pounds.  Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce is 5’ 115 pounds.

Her best 100m dash time is 10.70 (slower than all 23 college athletes in NCAA division 1 who competed).

Usain Bolt’s best time is 9.58 at 17 inches taller and 1.78x her weight.

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

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6 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Such numbers would indicate that Wolfgang might easily lose a "strong mechanic" like a speed boost in favor of a "fun mechanic" like actually pumping weights to change to strong form (perhaps burning his hunger when pumping) rather than a passive hunger trigger.  ie there is plenty of room for a rework, and I'd trust Klei to change it however they wanted.  They're track record with reworks is pretty good in my books.

Thing is, his mechanic is simple, straightforward, unique, enjoyable in its efficiency and fun enough to manage.

No significant changes of already existing mechanics required.

No need in him participating in "fun competition" - he has a niche and he successfully fulfills it.

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4 hours ago, Toros said:

Your initial argument was that strong people are slower.  That’s clearly disproven by nfl linebackers being strong and fast.

 

Not "strong people" but "strongman" type people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strongman_(strength_athlete)

These people are not training for sprint speed, or endurance running.  They are training for extreme weight lifts.

I quoted an article earlier specifically stating that teams were drafting lighter linebackers because they were faster than the heavier ones, and speed was more important to their strategies.  This isn't my opinion, this is an article discussing the drafting strategies of pro NFL teams.

Again - These aren't my opinions.  Yes it takes strength to be fast, yet training for muscle mass and especially upper body mass works against this.  Strongmen are great for events like carrying loads, and rowing, but they aren't sprinters.

Speed is not an iconic trait of a strongman archtype.  Take away his speed and I don't think any new players would pick him and think "why isn't he faster"  I think a much better trait would be to let him lift mobs and throw them to deal AOE damage, or mabye ignore hitstun from most attacks, maybe not let items slip from his hands.

You even said it yourself:

Quote

Olympic sprinters are faster than powerlifters because upper body mass obviously works against the speed gains, and powerlifters train for power, not speed.  Powerlifters also don’t have the luxury of ignoring upper body strength but Usain Bolt absolutely has stronger legs than just about everyone but powerlifters.

Just look at those legs, and that upper body...

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Here's a funny video of some strongman type people running a mile lol

PS: I'm not advocating for him to be slow.  I don't even care if he stays fast.  But when we're talking about reworking characters anyway... its probably the best thing to pluck out to make room for meaningful and engaging mechanics.

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1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

make room for meaningful and engaging mechanics.

You mean ruin unique and nicely working character with interesting and KISS mechanics and replace it with some icebox lifting/throwing guy?

I mean, it's his core defense aspect of fighting specialization, like dmg resistance wigfrid has... It has to stay.

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@Shosuko i ask you to stop and listen for a second, since i think this is a really unnecessary argument

a lighter person that has trained for running will be faster than a strongman, nobody is arguing against this fact

the strongman will be slow relative to the runner, but they're fast relative to an average person

when we use an adjective like "fast", "slow", "heavy", or "light", we have an idea of something to compare against

a car is fast: how can we say it's fast? because it's faster than walking

a car is slow: how can we say it's slow? because it's slower than a high-speed train

imagine a person arguing "cars are fast" and another arguing "cars are slow": can you see the problem? it's that they're both correct

or rather: what determines which one of them is right is what baseline they agree upon, and the argument never ends otherwise

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The pointless argument of big = slow aside, I love the ideas of implementing Wolfgang's profession as a strongman into his gameplay. The carrying heavy items faster idea especially, since that's one of the most annoying activities in the game and like the most iconic part of strongman stuff

Any way I imagine it in practice animated seems funny, but it'd be cool if he could heave the item a distance away to cause some heavy aoe damage at a targeted area, preferably with some delay to involve some prediction skill

On a drawback, a brief idea I had was to make him prone to sleepiness after a bout of Mighty form activities too - maybe food coma, maybe exhaustion, maybe just how rest is essential to a strongman's routine for recovery and growth

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Maybe it's basic idea but I think he should able to carry buildings (science machine, chests ex.) just like he carrying statutes. And maybe he should be a bit faster than other characters while carrying things (not fast as beefalos).

Extra idea: He should have adrenaline mode. When he attack for 10 seconds without stopping, his hits become faster. But also I think Wolfgang shouldn't have so much sanity. Klei should decrease sanity of him because he is not a smart person.

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2 hours ago, Slagger said:

Maybe it's basic idea but I think he should able to carry buildings (science machine, chests ex.) just like he carrying statutes. And maybe he should be a bit faster than other characters while carrying things (not fast as beefalos).

Extra idea: He should have adrenaline mode. When he attack for 10 seconds without stopping, his hits become faster. But also I think Wolfgang shouldn't have so much sanity. Klei should decrease sanity of him because he is not a smart person.

Wolfgang's broken English is not a sign of him being "not smart." He is foreign and English isn't his first language. He was also in a war, so perhaps that's why he has a high sanity drain. He's traumatized. 

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I made a post about this topic a few months ago, here is my proposal:

tl;dr: mightiness would require both food and prep time, needing to work out with weights to gain strength, which burns calories (food).

the idea was you have some weights and you can use them like you use a tent, raising his strength over time and draining his hunger, to fuel his work out. this way, you need to do additional work to get his big buff, and skipping arm day too much will make him wimpy. I saw some other people mention a dumbbell idea before, so I know I'm not the only one with this idea.

I push this idea to you because, I always found it odd that wolfgang gets such an enormous buff for doing what you should be doing anyway, not starving. by tying his strength to the weights instead of his stomach, it requires you to go out of your way to gain strength, instead of just stuffing your face as normal and being massively rewarded. Plus, you need to use the weights, or else you become wimpy, and noone wants a wimpy wolfgang. Of course you need food in your stomach to use the weights, and using them burns calories (like tents), so you still need to stuff your face extra hard like before, but now you also need to hit the gym, and that takes valuable time. you can still get your double damage, but you need to work for it.

of course, some minor tweaks would likely also be needed, such as a "grace period" after finishing your work out where your mightiness does not drain for a while, so you don't need to spam the weights every two seconds if you wanna stay maxed out. some other stuff like maybe a slower mightiness drain and maybe some stat tweaks for the various forms (mighty and wimpy), but that's not my job to figure out.

The main idea here is to make his strength something you need to maintain, so even if you have all the food in the world, you won't get stronger unless you pump that iron. if you don't use the weights, then you will eventually become wimpy, this way, you can't just stuff your face like normal, you need to actively better yourself. night time would be great for this, as you typically don't do much anyway, unless you're scouting I guess.

A few small additional ideas:

  • maybe other characters are able to lift the weights a bit for a temporary buff, allowing wolfgang to support his team in more supportive ways.
  • maybe the fuller your hunger meter, the faster you can gain strength, but it costs more hunger, that way you can bulk up easy if you have the food for it.
  • that, or a protein shake, for maximum gains
  • all those muscles should be able to lift large stones, statues, and heavy suits of armor or backpacks with ease, so he should be able to move with stuff like marble armor with a far less, or even no, movement penalty, but only so long as he is strong enough. if he drops below that threshold, he would start to gradually slow down as he loses strength until he is at the base penalty.
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17 hours ago, Jessie223 said:

@Shosuko i ask you to stop and listen for a second, since i think this is a really unnecessary argument

a lighter person that has trained for running will be faster than a strongman, nobody is arguing against this fact

the strongman will be slow relative to the runner, but they're fast relative to an average person

when we use an adjective like "fast", "slow", "heavy", or "light", we have an idea of something to compare against

a car is fast: how can we say it's fast? because it's faster than walking

a car is slow: how can we say it's slow? because it's slower than a high-speed train

imagine a person arguing "cars are fast" and another arguing "cars are slow": can you see the problem? it's that they're both correct

or rather: what determines which one of them is right is what baseline they agree upon, and the argument never ends otherwise

Did you watch the video where they ran about 6-7 minute miles?  I can run a 6-7 minute mile and I don't work out.

I think people are oversimplifying "strength" when they say "strong people are fast" => "wolfgang is strong" => "wolfgang should be fast"

People train for specific results, so the type of strength you will see on display varies greatly from class to class.  Bodybuilders can be big, but aren't setting lift records.  They are training to perfect body shape not amass strength.  Cross fit train a balance of all abilities.  Linebackers train to run, and aren't even that big.  Strongman types train for explosive strength.

Comparing Wolfgang to a linebacker is a bad annalogy completely disregarding the fact that we have real life strongman to compare him to.  Especially with his mighty form there is no reason to compare him to anything less then super heavy weight class strongman.  These guys don't run very fast, or far.  They can row like a mad man, and pull semis and helicopters...  but they aren't winning races...  Not even against high school kids.

Similarly - there are different kinds "powerful" for cars.  Some cars are powerful meaning they can get up to speed quickly, but they might be encombered by any reasonable load.  Other vehicles get to speed eventually, but putting a load on them doesn't really slow them down.  A honda civic is going to beat a ford f250 off the line, but add a 500lb trailer and see which one wins.

Again - these aren't my opinions - here is another piece about a strongman losing size (and strength) because he upped his cardio, and his cardio still isn't running XD

https://www.ladbible.com/news/inspirational-eddie-hall-shares-incredible-transformation-after-losing-25kg-20180927

 

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7 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Did you watch the video where they ran about 6-7 minute miles?  I can run a 6-7 minute mile and I don't work out.

"i can totally do this"

amazing source

7 hours ago, Shosuko said:

etc

again, you clearly read nothing

you started typing all of these out before you read my post

stop this pointless argument, please

12 hours ago, Superlucas1231 said:

Why are people arguing about muscle mass and speed in a game where a 9 year old girl high off of honey powder can chop trees faster than a strongman, a robot, and a "Valkyrie?"

yes it's gone way off-topic, hopefully it'll end now

it started because of the silly notion of "strong = slow", which is easily disproved, but someone insisted on going through great lengths just to avoid conceding

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14 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Did you watch the video where they ran about 6-7 minute miles?  I can run a 6-7 minute mile and I don't work out.

I think people are oversimplifying "strength" when they say "strong people are fast" => "wolfgang is strong" => "wolfgang should be fast"

People train for specific results, so the type of strength you will see on display varies greatly from class to class.  Bodybuilders can be big, but aren't setting lift records.  They are training to perfect body shape not amass strength.  Cross fit train a balance of all abilities.  Linebackers train to run, and aren't even that big.  Strongman types train for explosive strength.

Comparing Wolfgang to a linebacker is a bad annalogy completely disregarding the fact that we have real life strongman to compare him to.  Especially with his mighty form there is no reason to compare him to anything less then super heavy weight class strongman.  These guys don't run very fast, or far.  They can row like a mad man, and pull semis and helicopters...  but they aren't winning races...  Not even against high school kids.

Similarly - there are different kinds "powerful" for cars.  Some cars are powerful meaning they can get up to speed quickly, but they might be encombered by any reasonable load.  Other vehicles get to speed eventually, but putting a load on them doesn't really slow them down.  A honda civic is going to beat a ford f250 off the line, but add a 500lb trailer and see which one wins.

Again - these aren't my opinions - here is another piece about a strongman losing size (and strength) because he upped his cardio, and his cardio still isn't running XD

https://www.ladbible.com/news/inspirational-eddie-hall-shares-incredible-transformation-after-losing-25kg-20180927

 

Again, it’s painfully obvious you’re not an athlete, and have no idea what you’re talking about.

There’s so much wrong here I don’t know where to begin.

Wolfgang is based on the classic strongman archetype from a time period where steroids and human growth hormone weren’t used to get unnaturally big.  Strongmen were never the size of eddie hall because they were not chemically enhanced.  Comparing them is ignorant.

Speaking of ignorant, thinking you can use a youtube video and a “news” article from some trash entertainment site to challenge the hard data I’m using to support my argument is absurd.

In DST speed is the most difficult stat to balance because it improves efficiency in all tasks.  For wolfgang, I agree that it is the best stat to be given up to buff him in other areas.  That reasoning is based in mechanics, not in reality.

The only part of any of your posts that I believe is true is where you say you don’t exercise.

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10 hours ago, landromat said:

reduce his maximum damage and give him some strongman perks, like carry statues without speed penalty,

no, thanks

10 hours ago, landromat said:

more efficient work with axe, hammer and pickaxe. Increase stack size by 50% for all items in his inventory

yea, maybe

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On 11/9/2019 at 1:17 PM, Toros said:

Speaking of ignorant, thinking you can use a youtube video and a “news” article from some trash entertainment site to challenge the hard data I’m using to support my argument is absurd.

You mean my news article from CNN about how teams started drafting smaller runningbacks because the extra speed they get from being lighter is a bigger advantage to their teams than the strength the bigger guys have?  Where they were looking for sub 240lbs runningbacks?  Where the SHW Strongman can weight 300+?

Running isn't part of a typical Strongman's routine.  Not now, and not 100 years ago, so it doesn't really matter what time he's from.

Running subjects your body to about 5x your weight with each step.  Every pound does matter, and considering the massive upper body gains Wolfgang gets there is no reason to think he'd be especially fast.

Name a strongman who is also a runner who didn't specifically sacrifice a LOT of strength and weight to do it...  I'll wait...

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not a big fan of "wolfgang gets stronger with more people" thing.

not only does it make the game even worse for solo players, it makes it where Wolfgang is useless unless you have a ton of friends who play or play on public servers

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13 hours ago, Shosuko said:

You mean my news article from CNN about how teams started drafting smaller runningbacks because the extra speed they get from being lighter is a bigger advantage to their teams than the strength the bigger guys have?  Where they were looking for sub 240lbs runningbacks?  Where the SHW Strongman can weight 300+?

Running isn't part of a typical Strongman's routine.  Now now, and not 100 years ago, so it doesn't really matter what time he's from.

Running subjects your body to about 5x your weight with each step.  Every pound does matter, and considering the massive upper body gains Wolfgang gets there is no reason to think he'd be especially fast.

Name a strongman who is also a runner who didn't specifically sacrifice a LOT of strength and weight to do it...  I'll wait...

I’m not sure if you’re aware of it, but you are engaging in a set of behaviors that make it impossible to have a meaningful conversation.

The most obvious and disruptive of which is “moving the goalposts.”  Your initial position was that strong people are slow.  That was obviously false because there are many athletes that are both strong and fast relative to average people who don’t exercise.

Your CNN link is completely irrelevant because it’s comparing fast, strong athletes optimized for strength against fast, strong athletes optimized for speed.  That doesn’t relate at all to Wolfgang compared to the rest of the survivors because they aren’t athletes.

I don’t see why I need to reiterate this, but Wolfgang in his historical context as a strongman would never be as big as modern strongmen because he doesn’t have the chemical enhancements.  If you look at actual strongmen from that era they all had powerful legs which would give them an expected speed advantage over the general population.

The idea that Wigfrid would be faster given the limited information we know is absurd because she’s not an athlete on par with Wolfgang and men have an inherent advantage in strength and speed.

Wolfgang’s art shows proportionately small legs, and it’s part of the art style to have short, diminished legs across DST.  Hounds, giants, pigmen, merms, all have large upper bodies, small legs, and generally enormous heads relative to body size.  It’s a stylistic choice and dubious basis for making a realism argument.

To point out just how absurd your attempts to reframe the initial premise is: we started off debating whether Wolfgang having a speed boost is realistic, and you’re asking me to name a strongman “who is also a runner” (runner is too vague to have any meaning) “who didn’t sacrifice a lot of strength and weight to do it.”

It’s very simple:

1) Stronger legs provides speed improvement

2) Upper body mass and strong legs provided speed and strength greater than someone with neither.

3) But not as much as strong legs and limited upper body mass.

4) No one other than Wolfgang could be expected to have strong legs, and he would be as big as strongmen from his era.  They would be stronger and faster than average people.

This isn’t complicated.

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