Fridges magically making items "Revert" to 20 degrees.

[fragtzack]

Based on this Chill Pill video, there is claims out there putting any item in a non-powered fridge auto-magically "reverts" the item to 20 degrees.  Put all the automation in that video aside, run a test in your game where you have a duplicate put an item into a fridge that "automatically" change the item to 20 degrees. This core "Broken - reverts to 20 degrees" exploit in that Chill Pill is just not occurring. The pill will "cool" down in a Normal not exploit heat exchange is my observations in testing in both sandbox mode and in normal game mode.

My experience with non-powered  fridges is that any item you put into the fridge will exchange heat with the fridge. So if you put in an item (such as a pill) that is 50 degrees into a 20 degree fridge the pill will exchange heat with the fridge and the pill will cool down getting close to 20 degrees. In addition, the pill heat will slightly warm up the fridge. Now the fridge mass is much greater, so the fridge won't change much compared to the low mass pill But over time, the temps will even out. The great mass differences of the 2 items might make things appear to be "magic" and an "exploit" but in reality this is completely normal in real life and in this game.

   Given a long enough time without an external temperature influence to cool the fridge down constantly, keep adding hot pills into the fridge will make the fridge heat up to the same temp as the pills and the pills will stop cooling down..Just like all other heat exchange principals in this game.

I tried over and over to duplicate a fridge "magically" reverting an item to 20 degrees and could not duplicate this core "claimed" exploit. 

However, in sandbox mode all items instant spawned in are 20 degrees by default. So if you spawn in a bunch of mass all at 20 degrees in sandbox mode, I can see how running a short timed "experiment" might look like a fridge is auto-magically reverting items to 20 degrees. This may seem an "exploit" and a broken mechanic, but to me seems like just some folks tinkering in sandbox mode and not realizing how much spawning stuff in at 20 degrees.

I content that fridges behave like all other heat exchange building in this game and there is no magic here, simply someone using sandbox mode.

Need to focus on the claimed broken mechanic here of "all items reverting to 20 degrees when placed in a fridge". That claim seems completely false and is short-sighted experiment based on a sandbox mode experiment only with a lot of mass instant spawned in at 20 degrees.

Where am I seeing this wrong? Is there something wrong with my game that has never been modded?

 

 

[hackcasual]

It's not any item, I believe it's just pills, since they're coded a little differently. Can't find the thread, but some investigation was done and if the game was modded to allow anything to be stored in the fridge, any other item would reset to 20C. So it seems like fridges handle food properly, but don't on pills.

[fragtzack]

Yet in my game (never modded game, just installed in July) this auto-magic to 20 degrees doesn't happen.

In my game, if the fridge is 30 degrees then a 50 degree pill will only cool down (and not instant) to 30 degrees. In addition, the heat of the  pill will warm up the fridge a tiny bit. 

So you say this behavior "used to work", how about now?

Does your game in the current build magically cool anything down to 20 degrees regardless of the fridge temp or any other pre-condition?

Seems more than coincidence that sandbox mode instant spawned in items are 20 degrees and I could only partially duplicate this supposed "exploit" claim in sandbox mode. 

Tis very easy to test this right now, takes 5 minutes in sandbox mode. Spawn in a fridge, brush some hot oil on the fridge make sure the fridge warms up to 50 degrees. Now spawn in some pills(which all spawned in things come in at 20). Now place the 20 degrees in the fridge, the pills will heat up to close to 50. 

 

Now reverse the test, make the pills 50 degrees hot and leave the fridge at 20.. The pill will cool down to 20 but the fridge will start heating up..And the change won't be instant and it won't quite reach 20 degrees because this is a normal heat exchange process working.

 

Would be great if someone could run a test and actually prove or dis-approve this "exploit" works. My tests clearly show this is not an exploit and this is simply the video maker not understanding the mechanics of heat exchange with mass calculations and that sandbox mode instant spawns everything at 20 degrees.

 

Throwing in a bunch of automation hoops like the video or talking bout "the way things were" doesn't really seem to get to the point that this claim of fridges automatically changing pills(the video says all items) to 20 degrees is not a legit claim and was not legit tested.

 

[0xFADE]

They were specifically chosen for the chill pill thing because of their mass.

[fragtzack]

I just re-installed the game, Ran the same tests, got the same results. The claim in that you tube video that fridges magically (and instant the claim is) change items to 20 degrees is false. Fridge will exchange heat with pills and other food. If the fridge temp is at 50 degrees, anything placed in will not go below 50.  No magic occurring, certainly not an exploit. And certainly the build in that video is non-sense.

 

[0xFADE]

The video is a few months old too.  I wouldn't put it past that thing being fixed.  Anything odd like that should be fixed sooner than later.

[fragtzack]

10 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

They were specifically chosen for the chill pill thing because of their mass.

 There is nothing special about the  Chill Pill build then. Simply a different and unexpected  way of exchanging heat. The video is highly misleading because in the texted description and in the video maker verbal comments he clearly stats that fridges instantly change anything to a specific 20 degrees. 2 claims that EASY to test false/true in 5 minutes.

Highly misleading video and a pointless build.

 

[0xFADE]

Chill dude.  The game gets patched a lot.  If something that is obviously a bug in the first place doesn't work exactly like it does in a video it doesn't work that way anymore or you are doing it wrong.

[fragtzack]

2 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

The video is a few months old too.  I wouldn't put it past that thing being fixed.  Anything odd like that should be fixed sooner than later.

Yet the video maker responded today to my concerns, said he ran the test with the current build and the build still works. However, he would not focus on the core broken claim of fridges "reverting items instantly" to 20 degrees. Only says there is something wrong with  my game.

So I re-installed the whole game and getting the same results. Fridges DO NOT instantly change items to a magic 20 degrees. The temp of the fridge comes into play, the temp of the pills, the mass of the pills and the difference between the fridge and pills. 

The real issue here is the video maker posting invalid experiments

 

Again, as posted above. Run a 5 minute test to prove/disprove this the current build.

 

[0xFADE]

If he says it works then I guess it still does.  You are getting too worked up over something only the game devs have control over.  You are acting like you made some contract with the video owner and paid him a lot of money and now that thing he said he would make you never got finished and ran off with your money.

[ZanthraSW]

30 minutes ago, fragtzack said:

...

The real issue here is the video maker posting invalid experiments

...

You might at best be reasonable in saying that the issue here is the video maker not listing the patch under which he did the experiment, but it's not good to say such experiments are invalid.

I looked again and it does list the build it was done on. It is at the top left, just to the right of the current food supply. LU-353781

You could find many examples of videos showing how to cool your base using Water Sieve fixed 40C output temperature, or how to produces tremendous amounts of power with natural gas generators and fertilizer synthesizers. They may not work now, but they were they were to many useful and interesting builds.

You will run across a lot of outdated videos and builds on youtube and these forums that are not necessarily labeled as such, if it does not currently work, probably best just to move on.

PS: I double checked the video, it does look like it has the build in it. LU-353781

[bzgzd]

1 hour ago, fragtzack said:

Again, as posted above. Run a 5 minute test to prove/disprove this the current build.

You are correct. Fridge doesn't reset temperature to 20.

I thought there was maybe some fix since this thread:

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/109015-the-chill-pill-3000-aka-the-planet-freezer/

But I didn't play 2 months ago and can't compare source code and see if there was fix for fridges.
 

Spoiler

 

 

---

However when I spawned dupe and he was eating one pill I noticed it was reset to 20 before eaten.
So I tried sweeper and sweeper to fridge did no reset but sweeper to conveyor belt is where it sets temperature to 20.

No fridges needed just conveyors.

 

 

 

[avc15]

3 hours ago, hackcasual said:

It's not any item, I believe it's just pills, since they're coded a little differently. Can't find the thread, but some investigation was done and if the game was modded to allow anything to be stored in the fridge, any other item would reset to 20C. So it seems like fridges handle food properly, but don't on pills.

Any item made out of "genetic ooze".

Also, not just fridges, this happens with conveyor loaders as well. so you can just chute items onto the ground then autosweep them back into a conveyor loader.

So since everything gets loaded on conveyors in 20kg increments, *except* pokeshell molts (each molt weighs 50kg if i'm not mistaken), molts seem to be the most favorable item to use.

Though as OxFADE says, I wouldn't be surprised if this has been fixed (secretly hope it has)

[mathmanican]

3 hours ago, fragtzack said:

where you have a duplicate put an item into a fridge

You need a critical mass to make this happen. Did you use just one pill?  The problem happens as soon as you start cycling the objects.  If you have too few, the bug does not appear.  Most food items have the same exact issue. The reason for pill is the simplicity of making them with coal, and a fun name "chill pill."  Here is a bug report of the issue in relation to lumber.  All you ethanol lovers, beware, you might encounter this bug. 

You cannot cool a full time aquatuner with pills unless it actually is resetting the temp, period.  The bug is still there.  You just have to have a critical mass. Then start cycling the stuff and cool your base for free. 

Make some pills (enough to fill your rails and then some). Heat them up.

Then connect power to your stuff so the sweeper arm can start.

Look closely at the bottom right corner

Enjoy your temp resetting. There is a reason the video asks you to make more than one pill..... 

2 hours ago, fragtzack said:

The real issue here is the video maker posting invalid experiments

Please stop. Maybe chill down a bit.  

1 minute ago, avc15 said:

Any item made out of "genetic ooze".

Not quite any item.  Some work, some don't.  I put a few details in the bug report, and left several out. There was enough in that report for the devs to figure out which internal variable is causing it (I hope).  Whether they do anything about the report or not......  They generally come through, just takes a while sometimes. 

[bzgzd]

To me it seems you need to put inside loader more then one packet (usually 20kg) at once and then only last packet has correct temperature.

Here I used 41kg hot meat. Result is 2x 20kg reset to 19.9C and only last 1kg had correct original temperature.

[mathmanican]

I guess to be fair here, I don't think the fridge has anything to do with this bug.  I think it is specifically a oonveyor loader bug. The original post used fridges, but if you follow the development by @Blazing Falken, you'll see the fridges eventually disappeared.  We now just play the waiting game for bug fixes.

[bzgzd]

12 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

We now just play the waiting game for bug fixes.

And there are still quite a lot of bugs. And many 100% reproducible and reported months ago.
I already stopped reporting new. Next step is change forum name to Fixbugfixbug or something like that...

 

[mathmanican]

13 minutes ago, bzgzd said:

Next step is change forum name to Fixbugfixbug or something like that

I want to cry and laugh at the same time. I miss that guy.

[fragtzack]

Thanks for those that tested and in particular bzgzd

The convey belt is indeed the key thing, not the fridge nor the loader. 3 things I discovered in testing:

1. Must be a 20KG packet. 2. Must be genetic ooze 3. Must be a conveyer belt

This has been a lesson learned on my part into knowing which video content makers are ones that can be trusted to provide accurate and meaningful info and not just taking other folks works and polishing it. Really sad cause I watched most of his videos, but no longer. He is plagiarizing other folks work without understanding the underlaying mechanics and then when questioned on his mechanics he sends me to this forum for answers to his build.

Thanks again for explaining what the video maker failed to understand in his own build.

 

[Blazing Falken]

I put "a lot" of time into the chill pill creation and testing (as well as my many alternative coolers), it wasn't some careless 5 minute misguided assumptions. So this entire series of posts feels almost like a stab at me personally. Anyway, I don't know the youtuber well nor have I talked to him but I did watch that video and I was credited and the build does work. He was right in pointing you to the forums as that's where this concept was originated. Don't toss the poor guy to the curb over some misinformation. Maybe take a... chill-pill.

 

[bzgzd]

4 hours ago, Blazing Falken said:

Don't toss the poor guy to the curb over some misinformation. Maybe take a... chill-pill.

And also we where spreading "misinformation" even here in this thread... this bug has nothing to do directly with conveyor belts (at least according to my current theory ).

---

I was thinking a bit about this bug because as mentioned few posts earlier I noticed this temperature reset first when dupe was picking 1kg vitamin to eat (nothing to do with conveyors).

So my suspicious was that this bug is not with conveyors but with splitting existing mass and creating new chunk. (like conveyour loader does when making 20kg packets)

To test it I made 20kg hot barbeque and set fridge to limit 19kg and as you can see those 19kg because they where created from original 20kg are now (already in sweeper arm) reset to 19.9C

In other words this bug is happening in most people bases every single cycle when dupes are picking their food to eat. No matter if from storage (fridge or ration box) or from food pile on the ground. What they pick to eat has 19.9C

 

[0xFADE]

Is around 20c some default temperature?  Maybe some calculations failing at some point and just resets to default?   I wouldn't put it past being some cause of lag too.

[bzgzd]

46 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Is around 20c some default temperature? Maybe some calculations failing at some point and just resets to default?

Yes default temperature used in code on many locations is 293K.
It is used as default when new stuff is created, like when you get things from care package.

Spoiler

public static GameObject CreateBasicEntity(string id, string name, string desc, float mass, bool unitMass, KAnimFile anim, string initialAnim, Grid.SceneLayer sceneLayer, SimHashes element = SimHashes.Creature, List<Tag> additionalTags = null, float defaultTemperature = 293f)

public static GameObject CreateOreEntity(SimHashes elementID, EntityTemplates.CollisionShape shape, float width, float height, List<Tag> additionalTags = null, float default_temperature = 293f)

 

I think calculations are not failing but just not done for those "entities" like food, medicine or wood.

And this temperature issue seems to be happening for the same entities where you can get over 25t stacks and then also get to material loss with 100t+

 

[fragtzack]

9 hours ago, Blazing Falken said:

I put "a lot" of time into the chill pill creation and testing (as well as my many alternative coolers), it wasn't some careless 5 minute misguided assumptions. So this entire series of posts feels almost like a stab at me personally. Anyway, I don't know the youtuber well nor have I talked to him but I did watch that video and I was credited and the build does work. He was right in pointing you to the forums as that's where this concept was originated. Don't toss the poor guy to the curb over some misinformation. Maybe take a... chill-pill.

 

Hi Blazing,

 

 You are acting just like the video maker and ignoring the underlaying concern. The question is not about the build but the claim that "Fridges revert temperatures to 20 degrees". Please read a bit more carefully.  That claim about fridges is clearly inaccurate, so I wasted a lot of my time analyzing my game when the real problem was the video maker and now you now putting out false assumptions about the core underlaying mechanic allow this exploit? to work.

 

bzgzd and mathmanican are directly and accurately getting to the heart of the matter. That is some excellent follow up work bzgzd, thanks much for the deep dive.

 

[BLACKBERREST3]

I'm gonna add this to ONIversity, This clears up some discrepancy about how the chill pill really works. turns out to be more rail/loader wierdness with containers.