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MurkyMind

Woodie's refresh - Positive opinion (Tips and tricks as well)

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Sweaper    27

You pretty much said what I said in other threads and more. Another little tip for ruins rush is if you don't want to deal with the 30hp penalty before finding blue mushtrees but want to explore faster, you can simply eat the cooked monster meat instead. Even if it's not always the Goose, the other transformations are still  faster than the default speed or close to in case with the Moose spamming charge, plus free night vision.

Edited by Sweaper
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Mario384    1,037

I typed up a big thing on why I disagree, but it decided to delete itself.  Luckily, Toros gets my point across very well, in much less words.

Edited by Mario384

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Gasil    12

Thanks for the tips.

While I'm a bit down because beaver form became redundant, not so worth it, and unfairly expensive, at least it's good for gnawing stone fruit in mass.

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5 hours ago, MurkyMind said:

I am astounded at the amount of people that think Woodie's rework is bad, and after reading a vast majority of threads about the bad things about Woodie's refresh, I see that no one is pointing out the downright amazing things about his rework, and that is what I'm going to be advocating for in this thread...

 

 

You left out that you have to kill a bee queen to get the royal jelly that you can make a jelly bean with. And the moose form requires at least 6-7 uses if not more to beat the bee queen with and even then there is a very good chance that you instantly die after transforming back to woodie.

+ If i remember well, you can't even kill a pig with one moose charge. Yet you can destroy a pig house/rock with two? 
Are mobs similar to pigs hard as rocks and houses? Cos its a bit ridicilous + it drains alot of your weremeter that you never gonna fill up cos 9/10 times you won't have jelly beans to fill it back up.

Edited by Beardy Wilson
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Ermac__    72
Quote

his is the form people complain about the most and I cannot understand why. I have also not seen a single thread that points out all of the insanely amazing uses for it's charge ability. You can farm herds of splumonkeys, spiders, frogs, bees, and many other basic and aggressive mobs alike with this ability with an incredible amount of ease, I would even go as to say that his ability to farm in moose form makes Wendy and Webber obsolete, but I would need to test more (and obviously this is potentially bound to change when they are refreshed). And not only can you farm all of these things amazingly, you can do it with just a few grass and some monster meat, no tools, nothing. You MIGHT get a little banged up depending on what you farm, but all you have to do afterwards is heal. The moose form is an incredibly efficient method for farming mass amounts of mob drops. And as for combat, it can take on anything that isn't a boss with absolutely no problem. I have fought almost everything so far that was just an aggressive mob and it worked out just fine, and I didn't have to have a log suit or football helmet, nor did I have to craft any weapons. Woodie is an incredibly efficient combatant now. I'm also going to add this in tips, but I'm guessing since this is what most people will probably read I will put this here; WOODIE CAN EAT JELLY BEANS AND THEN RAPIDLY HEAL WHILE IN MOOSE FORM, THIS IS INCREDIBLY EFFICIENT FOR  FIGHTING IN MOOSE FORM IN RISKY FIGHTS OR IN GENERAL. I also saw someone wanting the charge ability to be removed, DO NOT REMOVE IT, IT IS INSANELY USEFUL IN TOO MANY WAYS TO COUNT. 

Just responding to this, moose form is basically a human character with a hambat and a logsuit for 1:30 seconds. He's actually worse at fighting anything meaningful(not trash mobs) than normal woodie, because normal woodie has access to healing, utility items, and the same damage and armor and is faster and can kite better. For 2 monster meats more, you can get a hambat instead of making an idol and go cut down some trees for a log suit. 

The charge is the only midly interesting thing about him, but the use cases are not really that practical. First of he definitely does not make webber obsolete in any way shape or form. Webber still is the safest, most efficient way to farm spiders. He has no danger and no spider cap that he can kill, unlike wendy. He also pays one mm for this ability, loses no health or sanity and has access to his items.

 

Woodie and Wendy are close enough to not make much of a difference, woodie has to charge back and forth to kill a bunch of spiders and has a decent recovery time, while wendy attracts them to Abigail and just deals aoe. They are both probably pretty close in timings to not matter, except woodie can do more spiders at a time since he doesn't need to take damage, but only for 1:30 seconds while wendy has it whenever for the cost of an inventory slot, and he also has to line them up first. Not obsolete.

 

Not to mention spider farming is replaceable. You could easily automate this with bunnies and not bother. So being strong at farming spiders shouldn't be his "niche". Farming frogs, splemonkeys, or bees are all low demand and not really useful. Except during a frog rain if you don't want to leave you base to have them despawn for some reason.

 

 

All in all I fail to see why moose woodie is better than any character fighting anything more than decent. The jellybean trick requires a strong boss item that woodie ironically is not great at doing, it is probably going to get patched out anyway like the garlic trick.

Edited by Ermac__
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ShadowDuelist    3,465

I think that what they did is great in concept and art, but the problems pointed out by most people, myself included, are the amount of damage taken by the idols, and the extremely short time of transformations to make it worth it. It doesnt matter if they are cheap, even as cheap as they are, the amount of damage and short time make the forms very hard to be useful.

I believe that simple changes what would satisfy everyone would be:

  • Considerably more transformation time: Either add (much) more time to all the creature forms, enough to do something meaningful, or just add more time as goose, and let moose and beaver actually regain beaverness as they do what they must so you can actually make your transformation worth the cost and risk. I know it has been taken into account the fact that you can mistake the forms, or someone can force feed you and idol, however the drain for not doing what you are meant to do as that form can let you quickly out, so that shouldn't be a problem, just wait a few seconds for the transformation to go away if you want out.
  • Lower the initial damage taken: the idols shouldn't damage you that much, specially if you are going to fight, you start off as heavily damaged which is never a good idea. Lower the damage taken to 15 damage, paired with my previous suggestion it will make it worthwhile.
  • Give the initial drain of meter a few grace seconds, at least 2 or 3 seconds after you first transform before it kicks in, to give you some time to start doing what you have to: usually it takes a few seconds to engage an enemy as the moose, and the heavy drain already takes you to half your charge even before you could do anything. Enemies are dinamic and don't stay next to you.
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FuffledBeeQueen    2,585

I mean yeah I agree its great, but some small changes would be nice, the forms last way too short to be useful for the cost of a full hunger bar

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Sweaper    27
8 hours ago, Toros said:

Most of the praise you've put on the forms is deeply and fundamentally flawed.  Instead of picking apart a wall of text I'm going to use the best example, the goose form.

To turn into the goose form it costs you 3 monster meat, 3 seeds, 30 health and 20 sanity.  You then lose 0.5 sanity per second for the minute or so you can maintain the form at best, which will cost you another 30-60 sanity.  Finally, when transforming back you're set to 0 hunger and immediately start taking starvation damage.

There is no scenario where getting 15% more movespeed than a walking cane and being unable to attack, craft, build, or gather is worth 30 health, 50-80 sanity, and all your hunger.

Similarly, if you think werebeaver is better now than he was before I think you're making a massive error in analysis.

Previously werebeaver cost you only easily recoverable sanity via pinecones whereas now it costs 30 health, 20 sanity, an additonal 30-60 sanity and all your hunger.  Woodie in human form is generally more efficient for trees and lets you also get more treeguards to farm living logs.  Werebeaver still is quite slow to dig up stumps and a lot more expensive to use.

 

The art in this rework is great, I wish the same care was put into the mechanics.

Turn into moose 2 times in a row in ruins and do your stuff. Eat blue caps after every second transformation or when you go low on hp. Repeat.

 

Want to explore? Eat 2 cooked monster meat, did you get goose then you're good to go. Beaver? The same thing + you can break a few things along the way. Moose? Keep spamming charge. No 30hp penalties while still being faster than normal speed.

 

Are you in the spider+pig forest biome? Eat 2 cooked meat. Goose for exploring it and checking which pig respawned. Beaver to get logs. Moose to farm spiders/pigs. No 30hp cost again.

 

Want to transform? Well, transform when your hunger is around 0-3. While you're at that, if you like to transform a lot just keep your hunger always low so you lose none to almost no hunger. The damage you take for being at 0 hunger for a few seconds is pretty negligible anyway and there are plenty of ways to recover HP in DST. The best time to transform is if you can use at least 2 of the transformations to great effect so you avoid the hp penalty from totems and leave to RNG to decide what you do. The second best time is when you find a bee biome and clean it with Moose to make honey based food or when you have a bird cage + desert for pierogis, making the totems health penalty redundant.

 

The only downside with Woodie if you know how to abuse his mechanics is just the low sanity, since you can easily bypass the hunger and hp penalties. But would you look at that, low sanity is good, specially with a higher Tree Guard spawn rate.

 

IMO he is in a good spot if you don't blindly transform using totems while making good use of the transformations from just cooked monster meat. And if you don't want to deal with any downsides at all you can just play as Woodie.

 

Or I could be wrong and his downsides definitely can't be played around at all thus making him bad. Hmm

Edited by Sweaper
Moose misstype
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x0VERSUS1y    3,270
10 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

-snip-

Pls stop justifying bad design with mental gymnastics. Current were-forms are bad no matter what. Sure being poor can mean "micro-management at a small financial level", but fact of matter is - it's "being poor" all the same, you just bedizen it.

Old DST "beaten-up" Werebeaver could run for Ruins day 1, no preparation needed. And because of wood-meter mechanic, poor armor-attack specs and insanity monsters, was considered subpar. Now you also need "preparation" for obligatory trashing of stats and these forms are harder to control and/or maintain, not mentioning the fact you could spontaneously revert in the most unsuitable moment. "Lovely" rework..

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Sweaper    27
48 minutes ago, Toros said:

because human is a far more efficient and powerful form with no drawbacks.
 

Yes, I agree with this at the end of the day.


As for some of your other points and considering that I mostly play on public servers of my region where there are usually 10-12 people playing, which will definitely not apply to most people. Getting gold and flint when you enter after day 10 can be a nightmare at times, unless you find Pig King for the gold or someone willing to give you 2 flints for pickaxe and then your future axe as weapon or spear if you find a machine. So being able to get equipment status with only monster meat is pretty OP making it easier to go to ruins while cutting time with the surface exploration.

 

Early game exploration you should be using cooked monster meat instead of tokens, I personally never had a problem eating those early game with all the butterflies and spider glands or cooked berries/carrots if desperate for HP.

 

For bees, you're better off killing them and the beehives, instead of making bee boxes since flowers are, well... flowers. Unless you put those in caves far away from everything and everyone, but the honey production will be kinda slow and for a server that will probably reset in a few hours it's not worth my time building them.

 

Shadow manipulator for Dark Swords is good, the problem is getting the purple gem outside ruins. Gotta love public servers with a lot of people, amirite? While we are at weapons, pig skins can be pretty hard to come by too.

 

So, for me who plays on servers with a lot of people and a world that is flint on the floor and gold rocks starved Woodie is pretty good for being able to ignore rushing a science machine.

 

Yes, this is a pretty specific case and most people don't play on servers with more than 10 people. But, for me at least, he is in a good spot since I'll take everything that can ignore flint and gold gathering. Even the old Werebeaver with its insulation and attack higher than Lucy's was good enough for me, I just got more tools to play with.

Edited by Sweaper
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Ermac__    72

Also Just so not to be a negative nancy since this is a tip topic. Moose charge is pretty good at taking down beefalo herds pretty fast, which is actually a pretty good use that many characters have trouble doing. At least early game when beefalo fur is good.

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Cr4zyFl4mes    8
10 hours ago, 359368170 said:

How many monster meat will you cost in cave traveling by goose form? Whatever, you will die after eating 5 idols. Because each idol cost 30 health.

Well, of course roaming around the caves with greater speed and nightvision isn't free. I bet you know how to cook some healing food, don't you. But you're right - now you have to wait one more day to catch some fish, steal some eggs or get honey before you venture into the caves.

8 hours ago, FuffledBeeQueen said:

I mean yeah I agree its great, but some small changes would be nice, the forms last way too short to be useful for the cost of a full hunger bar

Why don't people get you don't have to lose any hunger if you use it when having 0 hunger? Facepalm. Rather the longer lasting forms would be nice for reasons:
1) less crafting recipes needed.
2) no need to heal that much afterwards.
and most importantly 3) he'd be more FUN and less FRUSTRATING

But i wouldn't longer it for more then 150%
 

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Cr4zyFl4mes    8
9 hours ago, Ermac__ said:

Just responding to this, moose form is basically a human character with a hambat and a logsuit for 1:30 seconds.

False. Moose form is basically a human character with a hambat and unbreakable logsuit,... and nightvision and overheating resistance and water resistance and freezing resistance all the while carying a backpack for i'm not sure how much time.
 

Quote

because normal woodie has access to healing, utility items, and the same damage and armor and is faster and can kite better.

not the same armor - better armor, because he can use better suits and head slot.

I hate when people forget to set the record straight for the sake of their argument.

Edited by Cr4zyFl4mes
forgot something
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Ermac__    72
 
 
 
 
 
 
1
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1 hour ago, Cr4zyFl4mes said:

False. Moose form is basically a human character with a hambat and unbreakable logsuit,... and nightvision and overheating resistance and water resistance and freezing resistance all the while carying a backpack for i'm not sure how much time.
 

And unbreakable logsuit for 1:30 seconds. Which is not much different practice than having another logsuit in your inventory. If moose didn't have constant damage reduction he'd be even worse than he is now. So I'm not really sure what that adds, seems like a mootpoint.

Human form woodie also has access to all the things you mentioned.

 

Quote

not the same armor - better armor, because he can use better suits and head slot.

I hate when people forget to set the record straight for the sake of their argument.

That seems really pedantic. Woodie has access to the same armor...as as well as better. the point was woodie can basically use mid tier gear that easy to get and have the same exact stats with none of the downsides and almost all the upsides.

 

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Ogrecakes    1,060

Is this the same logic Klei went by when deciding to nerf Woodie?

 

The only good thing is the moose charge, but it's hardly important as most of the things its useful for are easy mobs like spiders and hounds.

Werebeaver runs out too fast and has a higher cost of use.

Goose form is worthless, it again has a high cost of use, lasts a minute tops, and cannot interact with anything. Not worth it by any extent.

 

No one is going to argue that the art and music are great, but you're just having a differing opinion without doing any of the math or logical thinking.

Edited by Ogrecakes
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Right now I just gamble with cooked monster meat, so I don't have to spend too much health to transform. I don't mind using the extra sanity. Although doing it this way is a bit more time consuming and certainly doesn't disqualify some tweaking to his stats and mechanics.

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