Warly's Attack-Buffing Foods.

[WesleyT245]

Prior to Warly's introduction, the only means to raise your attack is to play Wolfgang and to fill your hunger or use one of the two electric weapons. However, Warly brings two new features that add attack: His chili Powder, and the Volt Goat Jelly. The chili powder can be added to any meal to give the eater extra damage to all attacks, while the Volt Goat Jelly adds electric damage to the eater's attacks. While seemingly innocent, these foods can be used to crazy effects, especially with Wolfgang.

Let's look at the numbers:

The chili powder applies a 120% multiplier to any attack. This means a blow dart that deals 100 damage goes up to 120.

The Volt Goat Jelly applies a whopping 250% multiplier to any attack, provided the target is wet as well as adding electric power. This means that blow dart would go from 100 damage to 250 damage. Note that these buffs do not apply to the Morning star or Electric darts, as they are already electric by nature.

Wolfgang with a full belly applies a 200% multiplier, doubling any damage he deals.

The true insanity happens when all these buffs are used together. Since all the buffs are multiplicative, a full Wolfgang that has eaten a spicy Volt Goat Jelly will have a 6X attack multiplier. He can deal a massive 600 damage with one blowdart or 408 damage with one dark sword swing, provided the target is wet. To put that into perspective, that's the same damage as eight Wilsons with tentacle spikes. With wet targets and a dark sword, Wolfgang can kill Dragonfly in just 68 hits and misery Toadstool in 246 hits. He can one-shot warrior spiders, two-shot tentacles, three-shot beefalo and kill Deerclops in 10 hits. 

Is this overpowered? Well... not really.

Remember, the targets have to be wet for the 250% bonus damage to apply. Since water balloons don't make anything wet except for players and for some reason Dragonfly, spring is really the only time mobs are consistently wet. Additionally, the Volt Goat Jelly requires a Volt Goat Horn to cook, making it difficult to mass-produce. While the power level of these new foods is off the charts, achieving them requires jumping through some serious hoops.

 

[Ezaroth]

So Spring is the season to kill Dragonfly, Bee Queen and Toadstool. Gotcha.

[Viktor234]

It feels like Volt Goat Jelly either needs to be removed, or apply a 33% (+66% damage on wet enemies) or 50% (+25% damage on wet enemies, -25% damage on dry enemies) damage debuff on the user. A 600% damage multiplier for Wolfgang is way too high.

 

Edit: My suggestion: Give Volt Goat Jelly a 40% damage debuff (except for electric weapons), let it turn all your damage into electric damage and change the recipe from 1x Horn to 1x Electric Milk. Your damage will be decreased by 10% against non-wet enemies but increased by 50% against wet enemies. Morning Stars won't become that useless anymore because the goats will keep dropping horns while you're farming milk.

[Ezaroth]

4 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

It feels like Volt Goat Jelly either needs to be removed, or apply a 33% (+66% damage on wet enemies) or 50% (+25% damage on wet enemies, -25% damage on dry enemies) damage debuff on the user. A 600% damage multiplier for Wolfgang is way too high.

or nerf the electric dmg multiplication and increase the base dmg of existing electric weapons.

[SonicDen220]

1 hour ago, WesleyT245 said:

Note that these buffs do not apply to the Morning star or Electric darts, as they are already electric by nature.

I really hate the goat jelly for this. It's an utter humiliation on my favorite weapon. A weapon that used to be the strongest melee weapon with 72.25 damage per hit on wet targets... was topped by a spear. A SPEAR. A spear with jelly does 51/86 damage...

Does Klei really hate morning star so much...? First they make horns buyable in Hamlet with no blueprint for M-star in Hamlet-only worlds and now this?

[Bird Up]

This could be solved pretty easily if attack buffs were only applied to the base damage of a weapon instead of it's new damage total.

For example if damage buffs only applied the base damage of a dark sword, then the jelly damage on a wet target would add 102 damage, the mighty buff would add 68 damage, and the chili effect would add 13.77 damage. This would make the dark sword maxed out on Wolfgang do 251.7 instead of 408 currently live. Please note that this fix would only nerf damage buff stacking. If you have only one damage buff, you would not see a difference in damage with the new formula vs the old. This is the proper way to fix the damage buff stacking issue, and I've seen games go through a similar phase where their solution was this, so I hope klei sees this.

[ShadowDuelist]

Since the whooping numbers only appear on one character, why change the way the food works for all the characters, when the others are not that bad? There is a high risk of making the food not worth making at all if you start tweaking the values based on wolfgang alone.

Just adjust how the special food values behave ON WOLFGANG and not on everyone else.

[Bird Up]

10 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Since the whooping numbers only appear on one character, why change the way the food works for all the characters when all the others are not that bad?

Just adjust how the special food values behave ON WOLFGANG and not on everyone else.

Why would we specifically nerf one character. You know every character can abuse dmg buff stacking because it stacks multiplicatively. This isn't exactly bad on Wig either, should we nerf Wig? Changing how the formula works for everyone makes it a level playing field. It's still super strong, and it's fair. It's just currently a broken formula that makes damage get out of hand. Also what I proposed nerfs any damage buff stacking which would include Wig and Wolf's natural damage buff stacking with other buffs. You have to know how the numbers work.

[Viktor234]

10 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Since the whooping numbers only appear on one character, why change the way the food works for all the characters, when the others are not that bad? There is a high risk of making the food not worth making at all if you start tweaking the values based on wolfgang alone.

Just adjust how the special food values behave ON WOLFGANG and not on everyone else.

A damage multiplier of 3.0 on any weapon used by (almost) any character is still considered as bit too strong: 204 damage per hit with a Dark Sword or 300 damage with Blow Darts, one attack every 0.5 seconds. You'll need only half a minute to defeat Fuelweaver with a dps like that.

[ShadowDuelist]

20 minutes ago, Bird Up said:

Why would we specifically nerf one character. You know every character can abuse dmg buff stacking because it stacks multiplicatively. This isn't exactly bad on Wig either, should we nerf wig? Changing how the formula works for everyone makes it a level playing field. It's still super strong, and it's fair. It's just currently a broken formula that makes damage get out of hand. Also what I proposed nerfs any damage buff stacking which would include Wig and Wolf's natural damage buff stacking. You have to know how the numbers work.

Even if the damage stacks, the other characters can't reach such overpowered numbers due to the way they work. The only character that can reach such insane numbers is wolfgang, so again, my point goes beyond the numbers, why change something globally when there is just one problem? I don't think its a nerf specifically for him, its just tweaking how his +% would deal with this extra damage to make it less supreme.

I'd still go with either tweak wolfgang, or don't change anything, its a hard enough to obtain food, it only works at it peak during a rather small and specific time frame of the year, and only really late game people would be able to have a lot of it and use at will. Its a very niche food.

14 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

A damage multiplier of 3.0 on any weapon used by (almost) any character is still considered as bit too strong: 204 damage per hit with a Dark Sword or 300 damage with Blow Darts, one attack every 0.5 seconds. You'll need only half a minute to defeat Fuelweaver with a dps like that.

Still, if you are willing to fight raid bosses under heavy rain only and the rest of the year not do it, I'd say its a fair strategy for your patience and commitment. It would also mean that you eat the food 2 or 3 times a year, keeping it as quite expensive event food, where it belongs.

[Bird Up]

2 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I don't think its a nerf specifically for him, its just tweaking how his +% would deal with this extra damage to make it less supreme.

Well that's exactly what the formula change would do lol. It would only affect other characters when they stack pepper with volt goat jelly - because other characters (except wig) don't have an innate damage buff. It'd be just tiny bit lower, but that's it.

 

Example Wilson maxed out from jelly and pepper with a dark sword hitting a wet target does 204 damage currently on live.

 

Formula I proposed would make him do 188.4

This is such a minor change for other characters and it assumes the target is wet... It's more significant for Wolfgang. The numbers matter

 

[Viktor234]

13 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Still, if you are willing to fight raid bosses under heavy rain only and the rest of the year not do it, I'd say its a fair strategy for your patience and commitment.

You don't need heavy rain, any kind of rain is enough to get the 3.0 damage multiplier, there's rain almost half a year, and Warly's Crock Pot foods negate the rain for you. 1/2 year preparations, 1/2 year killing ~15 Bosses.

[Ezaroth]

29 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

You don't need heavy rain, any kind of rain is enough to get the 3.0 damage multiplier, there's rain almost half a year, and Warly's Crock Pot foods negate the rain for you. 1/2 year preparations, 1/2 year killing ~15 Bosses.

Actually, it needs to be raining for quite a while for mobs to get wet (until their name changes to blue) for the bonus electric dmg to take effect. So it's very hard to get mobs wet outside of Spring.

[Viktor234]

2 minutes ago, Ezaroth said:

Actually, it needs to be raining for quite a while for mobs to get wet (until their name changes to blue) for the bonus electric dmg to take effect. So it's very hard to get mobs wet outside of Spring.

It's raining almost non-stop during spring AND winter, the rain on surface during winter gets negated by the low temperature but that's not the case in the caves. So it's pretty easy to get mobs wet outside of Spring. Surface bosses are anyway easy to manage and they don't have shields negating 99% of incoming damage.

[Bird Up]

Hm. Testing the damage on Wolf, Wilson, and Wig. Wolf damage is in fact 408 with dark sword because 68*2.5*1.2*2 is 408, but when I try Wilson he is actually doing 188, instead of 204. 204 is the number you'd get by doing 68*2.5*1.2. 188 is the number you'd get from my formula where base damage is used. For some reason Wolfgang's damage stacks multiplicatively and Wilson's does not? So my formula wouldn't change characters like Wilson at all, but it'd change how Wig and Wolf calculate damage. Edit: Nevermind I was right the first time, didn't test right. Editing not to confuse anyone

[lakhnish]

2 hours ago, Bird Up said:

Formula I proposed would make him do 188.4

This is such a minor change for other characters and it assumes the target is wet... It's more significant for Wolfgang. The numbers matter

Uh, yea. I think they need to address the Wolfgang modifier for this particular area so he's not GodGang. It's a little much, as shown here for FW.

Spoiler

 

I unfortunately have to go elsewhere right now, but I imagine it to be the same for other bosses.

[MondayNight]

Yes, nerf darts because as well all know (and love), almost all servers have tones of darts and dart-makers. I can already say darts are the favorite weapon out there, totally "boken ez pz op", not like some "useless item" Ham Bat

[NSAiswatchingus]

1 hour ago, lakhnish said:

Uh, yea. I think they need to address the Wolfgang modifier for this particular area so he's not GodGang. It's a little much, as shown here for FW.

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I unfortunately have to go elsewhere right now, but I imagine it to be the same for other bosses.

Wrecked. And that was solo. Just 1 more player would make that fight only seconds long. 

It seems like a bit too much, but there is a ton of prep work to get everything for that set up properly. If any kind of nerf does happens it should definitely just be for Wolfgang's use of these buffs. 

Can anyone make a video of 6 spiced up, volt jelly filled, Wolfgang's fighting Misery Toadstool? I'd love to see that fight done in a minute flat. 

[Viktor234]

7 minutes ago, NSAiswatchingus said:

Wrecked. And that was solo. Just 1 more player would make that fight only seconds long. 

It seems like a bit too much, but there is a ton of prep work to get everything for that set up properly. If any kind of nerf does happens it should definitely just be for Wolfgang's use of these buffs. 

Can anyone make a video of 6 spiced up, volt jelly filled, Wolfgang's fighting Misery Toadstool? I'd love to see that fight done in a minute flat. 

But... the Misery Toadstool has only 99,999 health, 6 boosted Wolfgangs equipped with Blowdarts would deal 6 * (100 * 2 * 2.5 * 1.2) / 0.5 = 7.2k dps, killing Misery Toadstool in only ~14 seconds. Dark Swords on the other hand would need ~50% more time, about 20.5 seconds. And the next Misery Toadstool would take 20 days to respawn.

[WesleyT245]

I used blowdarts in my original post as it deals a base 100 damage, a round number to show off what the multipliers do. Dark swords are much more practical.

[NSAiswatchingus]

10 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

But... the Misery Toadstool has only 99,999 health, 6 boosted Wolfgangs equipped with Blowdarts would deal 6 * (100 * 2 * 2.5 * 1.2) / 0.5 = 7.2k dps, killing Misery Toadstool in only ~14 seconds. Dark Swords on the other hand would need ~50% more time, about 20.5 seconds. And the next Misery Toadstool would take 20 days to respawn.

[luvu2bits]

Klei specifically said in their stream yesterday about Warly that they're going to be balancing out Wolfgang, they're fully aware of how powerful this is

Something along the lines of "it's not gonna be just do this and deal double damage", so while maybe the point about the Morning Star is correct, we just need to be patient and understand the state the game is currently in. Since the entire cast is being reworked, every other character is in this weird.. limbo-y state, where they may not totally balance right with the other characters.

Do I think the Morning Star needs a buff? Absolutely. Do I think that Volt Goat Jelly is overpowered? In its current state, if you bother to make it with expensive ingredients, make the correct spices, use it on a specific character in a specific state, and on mobs with a specific status effect, that's only really going to be guaranteed in a specific season, it's pretty powerful.

But I personally just think this is a fault of where the game is currently at. I feel like once all of the reworks roll out, everyone will synergize nicely, and it'll all make sense and be balanced. For now, let's just enjoy this beautiful chaos and massive damage. 

[WesleyT245]

3 hours ago, Bird Up said:

Hm. Testing the damage on Wolf, Wilson, and Wig. Wolf damage is in fact 408 with dark sword because 68*2.5*1.2*2 is 408, but when I try Wilson he is actually doing 188, instead of 204. 204 is the number you'd get by doing 68*2.5*1.2. 188 is the number you'd get from my formula where base damage is used. For some reason Wolfgang's damage stacks multiplicatively and Wilson's does not? So my formula wouldn't change characters like Wilson at all, but it'd change how Wig and Wolf calculate damage.

What do you mean? Wilson is dealing 204. 400 - 196 = 204

[Viktor234]

3 minutes ago, NSAiswatchingus said:

8 Mighty Wolfgangs with Blowdarts would kill Bee Queen in ~2.5 seconds (or 4 seconds if she's not wet when spawned). Perhaps that's enough time to kill her before she spawns her 1st Grumble Bees. And about Klaus: Just shoot your eyes, if you kill both of its deers, he'll just become stunned for a few seconds, allowing you to kill him easily.

[Terra_Zina]

Oh heck. Better go in and rush every boss before they nerf this to the ground.