Balance those 6 things could greatly improve ONI experience

[camelot]

Since the official launch is so close, I want to list out 6 things that I feel should be tweaked in the launch update before it's too late. Those issues are listed from most to least pressing issue

I think Klei already have solutions in some areas, but it would be better to hear different voices about those issues. So feel free to add your comments here

1. Geysers output

I'm using number from toolsnotincluded and can clearly see that we have 3 tiers of geyser

• Tier 3 (worst): Carbon dioxide geysers/vents, Polluted oxygen vents, Hydrogen vents, Hot Steam vents. They have painfully low average output (<100 g/s), so have them in the map is like a burden
• Tier 2: Natural gas geysers, Cool steam vents, Leaky oil fissure, Volcanoes, Metal Volcanoes. They are fine
• Tier 1: Water/polluted water geysers and cool slush geysers. 2000 g/s average output, no need to cool down, free dirt and cooling (PW)

I think tier 3 geysers output should be increased to around 300g/s (3x more). They still worse than mid tier because all of them are buried.

The output for tier 1 geysers such as water geysers, polluted water geysers, cool slush geysers should be reduced to around 1200g/s, 1000g/s, 800g/s respectively. That make them still a bit better than mid tier cool steam vents because they don't need to be condensed but not OP anymore

2. Rocket travel time

I was never thoroughly try space travel in ONI. It felt too grindy and one-dimensional that I stopped trying after build hydrogen engine

1 trip to 160,000 km planet takes 41 cycles (6 hours if play at 3x speed 6.9 hours if play at 1x speed or 2.3 hours if play at 3x speed) is insane. I think playable space travel time should be 3 times less than current time (1 cycle for each 10,000 km)

We can achieve that using better engines; multi-level, well-trained astronauts (using skill points) or something like modifiers. Dupes can craft space engines modifiers using data banks and refined metals. 1 modifier could increase the speed by 1%, and could be permanent or wear out after 10 cycles. This way, we need to trade off between quickly farm materials from nearby planets or research better space techs

3. Wild and domestic farming

Thanks for recent changes about Waterweed and Pip planting range. But WWs require bleach stone is insane, that make them use 2 non renewable resources. I think salt water is enough

About Pip range, I found that it's not intuitive to figure out their patterns on my own. My idea is Pips should only plant things for us after tamed. There's no requirement for range but all cool down to Pips plant time. For example, 1 tamed Pip will plant 1 seed after half the time of that plant's wild cycle. So 1 Mealwood seed per 6 cycles, 1 Pincha after 16 cycles, 1 Water Weed after 24 cycles, 1 Sleet Wheat after 36 cycles

Or to make wild planting even harder, make the Pips eat the seeds instead of munching Arbor trees. They'll only plant the types of seeds that they're fed. So to plant wild Pinchas, you need farm some Pinchas and leave the seeds for Pips to eat and plant. 

4. Diseases

I'm glad that dupes no longer inhale 1 pocket of gas with 1000 Slimelung germs to be considered exposure. But with new update, we have less and less slime biomes, Slimelung and germs in general is a bit irrelevant. I feel that we should have some more new diseases, especially in new biomes.

A crab morph that eats salt and produces Salt Ices and contains a new type of surface germ or buff the bean but make it also have a new type of digestive bacteria would be cool

Please make diseases great again

5. Ranching

I think we could all agree that pacus, puffs and gassy moos are broken at this moment.

I actually don't know if cramped breeding pacus is intended or not but it feels wrong. Maybe reduces the algae cost and add space requirement for cramped. Overcrowded pacus (4-7 water tiles) still lay eggs but cramped one (<3 water tiles) won't

Gassy moos would be more useful with the requirement from gas vents and new source of chlorine from salt. Just buff the natural gas output from them a bit so 1 full gassy moos stable could have enough natural gas to provide a full-time-running gas vent

And puffs are tough to improve

6. Wood Burner

This generator has mass input 1714 g/s, carbon dioxide output 171.4 g/s (10%). Coal Generator mass input 1000 g/s, carbon dioxide output 20 g/s (2%). So 5x different.

I think Wood Burner number need to be changed, because by common sense, wood has lower percentage of carbon mass compare to coal. Also because NG Generator's output is around 22.5 g/s

[goboking]

15 minutes ago, camelot said:

1 trip to 160,000 km planet takes 41 cycles (6 hours if play at 3x speed) is insane.

That doesn't sound right.  Did they check the math?

[crbd115]

On pufts, I think I came up with a reasonable way to fix them without involving too much work from devs. I posted it in a previous post where people were making their own patch notes but it seems like pufts are a big annoyance for most people.
Rework puft prince - consumes chlorine, oxygen or polluted oxygen and produces the appropriate solid, the egg rates change related to what gas he is consuming the most, Needs more grooming then average (he is a prince he needs to be pampered), Consumes and proportionately produces more then average puft, (again hes a prince, hes greedy)
I know people want more mass output from them and I can maybe agree with that but I feel like the breeding mechanics are what make them frustrating. I think this method for the devs would be easiest so they don't have to give up on the current system entirely where a group of pufts want to make a prince before making other eggs. Problem is either getting them to notice or getting them to admit that ranching does still needs a little work. If they don't maybe someone can mod it eventually i guess

[Lilalaunekuh]

5 minutes ago, goboking said:

22 minutes ago, camelot said:

1 trip to 160,000 km planet takes 41 cycles (6 hours if play at 3x speed) is insane.

That doesn't sound right.  Did they check the math?

The math here really hurts my eyes.

 

Some facts:

1. ONI runs at 6 cycles each hour, so if you play on 3x speed it runs at 18 cycles each hour.

2. A rocket need 3 cycles for each 10.000km of distance.

3.There are plantes up to 210.000km in the new launch preview branch.

4.. Our duplicants can learn a skill to increase our rocket speed by 10%.

 

=> Reaching a 160.000km planet would take 48 cycles or an equivalent of 140 minutes real time on 3x speed.

Spoiler

A trip to a 160.000km plant could be reduced to ~43,6 cycles with the rocket navigation skill.

 

To reach the furthest planet on my starmap it woul take 63 cycles or an equivalent of 3,5 hours real time on 3x speed.

(~32 cycles with the navigation skill)

 

[bobucles]

16 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

A rocket need 3 cycles for each 10.000km of distance.

Delta-V doesn't work that way! For a fast interstellar journey the solution is to accelerate the first half of the way there, and decelerate the second half. If we measure distances to the planets as flat values, then the time required to reach further away will increase by the square root of the distance. So if a rocket instead has no speed cap and an acceleration of 2000km per cycle^2 (a very modest 0.56 G's)...

10000km: ~4.5 cycles

20000km: ~6.5 cycles

50000km: ~10 cycles

200000km: ~20 cycles

The 10% extra rocket speed talent would be less useful, only reducing flight time by about 5%.

Just some number tweaks to consider.

[Lilalaunekuh]

12 minutes ago, bobucles said:

Delta-V doesn't work that way! For a fast interstellar journey the solution is to accelerate the first half of the way there, and decelerate the second half.

I know, but we need to keep 2 things speperate here: Real world rocket physics and (current) oni physics

 

Spoiler

Why not even calculate some "more real" gravitiy assisted travel routes ?^^

 

[DarkMaster13]

16 minutes ago, bobucles said:

Delta-V doesn't work that way! For a fast interstellar journey the solution is to accelerate the first half of the way there, and decelerate the second half. If we measure distances to the planets as flat values, then the time required to reach further away will increase by the square root of the distance. So if a rocket instead has no speed cap and an acceleration of 2000km per cycle^2 (a very modest 0.56 G's)...

10000km: ~4.5 cycles

20000km: ~6.5 cycles

50000km: ~10 cycles

200000km: ~20 cycles

The 10% extra rocket speed talent would be less useful, only reducing flight time by about 5%.

Just some number tweaks to consider.

That isn't a bad start, but I still think that takes way too long.  My suggestion in another thread was to start by reducing all times by 1/3, as well as add numerous ways to further improve the time.  Every rocket type upgrade and switching from oxylite to liquid oxygen would reduce travel times.  Each thruster you add to the rocket also reduces travel times.  Then we also include your suggestion with square root distances to normalize the travel times somewhat.

Now we have something with base travel time for 10,000 km is 2 cycles, but drops when we add more and more acceleration modifiers from better and better components.  Say petroleum is +50% acceleration, hydrogen is +100%, and liquid oxygen is +50%.  Each thruster adds +25% travel speed.  I also suggested having excess fuel could also increase speed, maybe scaling to +100% for double the fuel you need?  At least then excess serves a purpose instead of just being lost.  All of these are modifying that same acceleration rating and then put through the square root formula.  So an improvement of 100% is not halving the speed and scales better with further distances.  If you want as fast as possible, you have options.  This also gives a real niche for the thruster rather than being something you slap on an early steam research or cargo rocket and never use again.  Just be prepared to pay for it in extra fuel costs.

[bobucles]

22 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

I know, but we need to keep 2 things speperate here: Real world rocket physics and (current) oni physics

That's why I listed examples. The trick to using real physics is that it also generates pretty decent real game values. A trip taking less than 5 cycles is really damn fast, and any trip over 20 cycles is getting to be pretty dang long. Real physics keep all the trip values squeezed into the 5-20 time frame (or whatever range you prefer), without doing anything to disrupt the current 10000km/tier hierarchy.

Asteroid respawning seems to be slated around the 50+ cycle time frame, so a 20 cycle round trip is still quick enough for a dedicated rocket to run them dry.

Any other issues with slow space travel can be solved by launching more rockets. Launching 5 rockets on a 15 cycle journey is still 1 rocket every 3 days. That's not too bad for strip mining the system.

[SakuraKoi]

Just now, bobucles said:

The trick to using real physics is that it also generates pretty decent real game values

Sure, I actually have three calculators lying on my desk...

 

I really do, all Casio, fx-82 Solar, fx-85DE plus, fx-991ES Plus. I mostly do addition with them, sometimes multiplication and when I am not using my browser as calculator, even division.

[Gurgel]

I have to say that except for weak geyser output, puft performance and rocket travel time, I do not agree to any of this. This feels very much like instructions to break the game for many, many people. 

And the cooling imbalance and lack of mid-game options, which I think is the most pressing issue at this time, is not even on the list.

[bobucles]

40 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

And the cooling imbalance and lack of mid-game options, which I think is the most pressing issue at this time, is not even on the list.

Worts could use a fix, and the Ice-E fan is useless enough to be removed from the game entirely. Just build an ice statue or drop ice on the floor.

Keep in mind that some of the biggest sources of heat are now gone. The big jumbo heat makers now come from the new machines, which are under development, and the metal refinery, which pumps out thousands of kDTUs. Every other source of heat is pretty minor and can be handled with simple machines.

The thermo regulator absolutely needs a buff. It struggles to compete with the ice maker even AFTER the ice maker got an 80% nerf, and the regulator doesn't even delete heat. That's how bad it is. Cut the energy cost of the regulator by at least 50%, if players want more yield they can chain more regulators together.

Even the simple fridge could use a buff as those 120W are always on. A fridge can end up consuming more energy in the long run than some of the "high energy" machines and a single fridge is hardly enough for a growing base. Too many players leave them unplugged because it's just not worth running a dedicated power generator over a free food preserving setup. 

[nakomaru]

3 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Why not even calculate some "more real" gravitiy assisted travel routes ?^^

This must be the reason expertise speeds up travel time.

3 hours ago, bobucles said:

Delta-V doesn't work that way! For a fast interstellar journey the solution is to accelerate the first half of the way there, and decelerate the second half.

Because it's using more and more fuel for further planets, ostensibly it is accelerating the whole time. They should really change to acceleration derivated flight times. Great catch.

[natanstarke]

6 hours ago, camelot said:

Since the official launch is so close, I want to list out 6 things that I feel should be tweaked in the launch update before it's too late. Those issues are listed from most to least pressing issue

I think Klei already have solutions in some areas, but it would be better to hear different voices about those issues. So feel free to add your comments here

1. Geysers output

I'm using number from toolsnotincluded and can clearly see that we have 3 tiers of geyser

• Tier 3 (worst): Carbon dioxide geysers/vents, Polluted oxygen vents, Hydrogen vents, Hot Steam vents. They have painfully low average output (<100 g/s), so have them in the map is like a burden
• Tier 2: Natural gas geysers, Cool steam vents, Leaky oil fissure, Volcanoes, Metal Volcanoes. They are fine
• Tier 1: Water/polluted water geysers and cool slush geysers. 2000 g/s average output, no need to cool down, free dirt and cooling (PW)

I think tier 3 geysers output should be increased to around 300g/s (3x more). They still worse than mid tier because all of them are buried.

The output for tier 1 geysers such as water geysers, polluted water geysers, cool slush geysers should be reduced to around 1200g/s, 1000g/s, 800g/s respectively. That make them still a bit better than mid tier cool steam vents because they don't need to be condensed but not OP anymore

2. Rocket travel time

I was never thoroughly try space travel in ONI. It felt too grindy and one-dimensional that I stopped trying after build hydrogen engine

1 trip to 160,000 km planet takes 41 cycles (6 hours if play at 3x speed) is insane. I think playable space travel time should be 3 times less than current time (1 cycle for each 10,000 km)

We can achieve that using better engines; multi-level, well-trained astronauts (using skill points) or something like modifiers. Dupes can craft space engines modifiers using data banks and refined metals. 1 modifier could increase the speed by 1%, and could be permanent or wear out after 10 cycles. This way, we need to trade off between quickly farm materials from nearby planets or research better space techs

3. Wild and domestic farming

Thanks for recent changes about Waterweed and Pip planting range. But WWs require bleach stone is insane, that make them use 2 non renewable resources. I think salt water is enough

About Pip range, I found that it's not intuitive to figure out their patterns on my own. My idea is Pips should only plant things for us after tamed. There's no requirement for range but all cool down to Pips plant time. For example, 1 tamed Pip will plant 1 seed after half the time of that plant's wild cycle. So 1 Mealwood seed per 6 cycles, 1 Pincha after 16 cycles, 1 Water Weed after 24 cycles, 1 Sleet Wheat after 36 cycles

Or to make wild planting even harder, make the Pips eat the seeds instead of munching Arbor trees. They'll only plant the types of seeds that they're fed. So to plant wild Pinchas, you need farm some Pinchas and leave the seeds for Pips to eat and plant. 

4. Diseases

I'm glad that dupes no longer inhale 1 pocket of gas with 1000 Slimelung germs to be considered exposure. But with new update, we have less and less slime biomes, Slimelung and germs in general is a bit irrelevant. I feel that we should have some more new diseases, especially in new biomes.

A crab morph that eats salt and produces Salt Ices and contains a new type of surface germ or buff the bean but make it also have a new type of digestive bacteria would be cool

Please make diseases great again

5. Ranching

I think we could all agree that pacus, puffs and gassy moos are broken at this moment.

I actually don't know if cramped breeding pacus is intended or not but it feels wrong. Maybe reduces the algae cost and add space requirement for cramped. Overcrowded pacus (4-7 water tiles) still lay eggs but cramped one (<3 water tiles) won't

Gassy moos would be more useful with the requirement from gas vents and new source of chlorine from salt. Just buff the natural gas output from them a bit so 1 full gassy moos stable could have enough natural gas to provide a full-time-running gas vent

And puffs are tough to improve

6. Wood Burner

This generator has mass input 1714 g/s, carbon dioxide output 171.4 g/s (10%). Coal Generator mass input 1000 g/s, carbon dioxide output 20 g/s (2%). So 5x different.

I think Wood Burner number need to be changed, because by common sense, wood has lower percentage of carbon mass compare to coal. Also because NG Generator's output is around 22.5 g/s

Geysers

Agreed on the buffs and disagreed on nerfs with the exception of coolslush.

Space travel 

Yes need to be faster even for steam rockets.

Pip farm

For me it was already perfect now its even more than perfect i really woundt touch that ever again.

Wood burner

A Little less co2 would be welcome especially for new players so agreed on that to. " i want this game to sell a lot :p".

Diseases

AFter some thinking i would like an option to just remove germs from the game for me because i want to avoid any sort of unnecessary calculations.

Just adding a random each like 15 cycles for a dupe to catch a minor flu or a little insomnia etc could be more interesting to tinker about than billions of germs everywhere that do nothing or outbreaks.

Waterweeds 

Just salt water would be cool maybe fertilize with salt too. Super salty plant!

Ranching 

Pufts fly so i kill them period i kill even my beloved shinybugs rip :(.

Pacus

JUst making them having a ultra long life cycle like half of an drecko life cycle maybe would solve at least some part of its problem and consuming more things other thsn just algae too and very little ammounts.

 

[camelot]

7 hours ago, goboking said:

That doesn't sound right.  Did they check the math?

Ah sorry, quick post without double check before bedtime mistake. I was meant "6 hours for 1x speed" (600s/cycle * 41.2 cycles / 3600 = 6.9 hours or 2.3 hours for 3x speed with 10% bonus from astronaut)

 

[Grimgaw]

9 hours ago, camelot said:

Overcrowded pacus (4-7 water tiles) still lay eggs but cramped one (<3 water tiles) won't

That's not how this works. Before you suggest changing a mechanic I'd suggest you learn how it works in first place.

Of course it'd be nice to have this sort of info in game.

[camelot]

2 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

That's not how this works. Before you suggest changing a mechanic I'd suggest you learn how it works in first place.

Of course it'd be nice to have this sort of info in game.

Uhm, that's my suggestion, not how it works in the game

My post is too short and not very clear, that's right. But no need to be that harsh and assume bad things

To be clear, in the game, pacus stop laying eggs (cramped) only when: they don't have enough tiles (8 for each) AND in a room AND have at least 1 egg around. 100 pacus in 1 water in an open room (>800 tiles) are only overcrowded, which is overly complicated for users and doesn't make sense

Also, 3 pacus in 1 water tile and in 24 tiles room are overcrowded but in the same condition 2 pacus with 1 egg will be cramped is somewhat understandable but quite complicated too

That's why I suggest that instead of using room titles and egg requirement for cramped status, we can count water tiles. That would be more intuitive. Technically, counting room titles would be much easier than counting water titles, but in user viewpoint that makes more sense and should be considered