Nitroturtle Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 First off, huge thanks to @Cairath for creating and maintaining this awesome tool. I use it every time I start a map, because I refuse to let RNG dictate the difficulty of my map. With that said, once things are finished, we are going to be left with a completely unpopulated tool. So I encourage anyone who's interested in using the new seed DB to download and use the mod to help re-populate, once things are ready of course. We also need to make sure that anyone contributing knows that modifying the contents of the worldgen/traits folder will make their contributions invalid. Looking forward to using the new tool to help find a new home for my duplicants! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairath Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Junksteel said: @Cairath Hey! I want to say thank you for your work. I got so used to it man... not having that quality of life beauty in the preview made me feel naked. Sorry! It's taking quite long and collided with my vacation x( Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessumo Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 @Promethien, it seems that Geodes and Geodorment traits are switched. Otherwise - great tool indeed, kudos! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Promethien Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 I did not make the tool I linked. I am simply reposting what someone else linked on this forum in another thread. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heister Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 17 hours ago, nessumo said: @Promethien, it seems that Geodes and Geodorment traits are switched. Otherwise - great tool indeed, kudos! I just tested here and it's correct on my end... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessumo Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @Heister this is really funny... Not working for me (-: Your seed and my test seed on Arboria attached. I am running LU-351503 on OSX 10.13.6. Any idea? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitroturtle Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 14 minutes ago, nessumo said: @Heister this is really funny... Not working for me (-: Your seed and my test seed on Arboria attached. I am running LU-351503 on OSX 10.13.6. Any idea? Works for me on same version running on Win10. My guess is either it's a difference with OSX, or you modified your worldgen/traits files. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairath Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 I'm gonna go ahead and blame mac -- caused enough headache with the seed tool, enough for me to consider banning macs in general, certain versions seem to just handle random number generation totally differently :/ Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessumo Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 I am running vanilla game - no mods, not modifications (AFAIK). And please don't start standard flamewar - we all know in our hearts that macs are better (-: Anyway, when I know the twist it is not a problem. It would be good if any other mac user could check if it is mac thing or "my" thing, tho. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariilyn Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Just now, nessumo said: I am running vanilla game - no mods, not modifications (AFAIK). And please don't start standard flamewar - we all know in our hearts that macs are better (-: Anyway, when I know the twist it is not a problem. It would be good if any other mac user could check if it is mac thing or "my" thing, tho. I have the same problem, also with OSX 10.13.6. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessumo Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @Mariilyn, thnx for confirmation. I am not alone! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 20 minutes ago, nessumo said: we all know in our hearts that macs are better At being overpriced paperweights, maybe. Anyway, it wouldn't be the first time that differences in OS have caused the RNG to have different results. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessumo Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 29 minutes ago, Yunru said: Anyway, it wouldn't be the first time that differences in OS have caused the RNG to have different results. Anyone more experienced could explain this to me? Because I thought seeds are used in deterministic function to generate the world. How is RNG involved here? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitroturtle Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 I wonder if this would be considered a bug? It would stand to reason that seeds should generate the same map across platforms. It would certainly make Cairath's life easier. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairath Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 14 minutes ago, nessumo said: Anyone more experienced could explain this to me? Because I thought seeds are used in deterministic function to generate the world. How is RNG involved here? It's deterministic as long as the used method is the same, which is not always the case if the implementation used isn't custom. It still *is* RNG - it's seed based, as there is never true randomness, in reality it's what we call pseudo rando - there's always a seed based calculation involved, in this case it's visible to the player, but in in instances where it should be "random" various things can be the seed, such as current timestamp, seconds the program's been running, anything that would generate "randomness". There's differences between algorithms used in Mono and raw .NET framework, and even between various .NET framework versions. For the seed validation /trait search purposes I've taken the algorithm from the decompiled sources attached to the game (because the default system.random generated different results) and I'll be validating seeds against that algorithm. It certainly would be easier to manage and nicer for the community if all platforms generated the same results, but sometimes getting that to work might be a pain in the butt. Would be nice if someone running linux could post their results for that seed Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 13 minutes ago, Cairath said: Would be nice if someone running linux could post their results for that seed Here is what I got (Ubuntu 16.04) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessumo Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Maybe I wasn't precise - could you please assume I am software developer, I know that "seed" name was taken from pseudo-RNG generators etc etc... But in every game I know generation of the seed mimics randomness, but for given seed world generation is later deterministic. I thought here is the same - for given seed (and game version, because obviously code can change) geysers, planets, biomes etc are the result of fully deterministic function. There is a layer of "randomness" also, for example every time you generate the world plants have different growth, but when you say RNG could be possibly involved in this bug I am lost. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairath Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Tldr: It's RNG but it's deterministic if you use the same seed. It's not the same across different OS because most likely it's not using the same algorithm orrrr system architecture is getting in the way, but that part is a bit beyond of what I can correctly explain @mathmanican Looks like what I've expected, same result on Linux and mac, different from Windows. Not surprising... except for the fact that someone just had test it for me on ArchLinux and got the same results as on windows. Could you check what seed 1 gives you please? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessumo Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Unfortunately, as this is exactly the part that interests me. I would be very surprised to learn that algorithm is different on different OS, therefore I guess that it must be, as you said, "system architecture getting in the way" of fully deterministic algorithm. That is something unexpected! nvm, we will probably never know... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heister Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 2 hours ago, nessumo said: @Heister this is really funny... Not working for me (-: Your seed and my test seed on Arboria attached. I am running LU-351503 on OSX 10.13.6. Any idea? Yeah I know why this happens. This is an issue with how Klei made the traits list before getting them for the game. They just read all the files on a list, and I thought they obeyed alphabetical order, which seems to be true for anyone running ONI on Windows. But when reading the Mac/Linux files it's not ordering them the same way before getting traits randomly. This pretty much means that seeds between people running Windows/Linux and Macs might no be interchangeable , this is true even for the TNI tool. Since my tool runs on the web, I don't have access to your files which means I can't read the files on your Mac on the same order as in Windows The only way it will work is if I compile a standalone version for you guys and you run on your computer. Give me some time and I think I can get a version for you. edit: Maybe it's this or maybe I'm wrong, let me just run some tests before. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessumo Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 If this is based on reading filesystem, then all is lost. AFAIK some OS may relay on things like creation/modification date, which may vary between installations on the same machine (-: Oh well... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 46 minutes ago, nessumo said: Anyone more experienced could explain this to me? Because I thought seeds are used in deterministic function to generate the world. How is RNG involved here? You can use a (C)PRNG in your software or you can use the OS one. Does not make any sense for Klei to use an OS generator. Much more likely this is a generator from the game engine and there is some difference on the Mac. Has anybody tried seed portability to Linux? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairath Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Although the geodormant/geodes thing actually looks like it might be file ordering (this is... silly), there have been major biome differences in map uploads to TNI before traits were a thing. Once I am done updating (bear with me, it's still going to take a while) we could compare it in detail. If it turns out to be file ordering, I think we could ask Klei to fix that quirk. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majorchubby Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 3:11 PM, Junksteel said: @Cairath Hey! I want to say thank you for your work. I got so used to it man... not having that quality of life beauty in the preview made me feel naked. Big thanks from me too. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Cairath said: Could you check what seed 1 gives you please? I used seed "1" and got the following: Spoiler I stopped taking screenshots, as this demonstrated to me that the traits are definitely seed dependent (and independent of type of world). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/page/2/#findComment-1226792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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