[Game Update] - 348553

[bobucles]

1 hour ago, Grimgaw said:

but consider this: now you'll have to cool that cool steam geyser to 70C or enjoy 95C+ oxygen... Lovely.

Electrolyzer outputs have less specific heat than the input water. The best option in any scenario is to keep the input temperature hot, and cool the oxygen afterwards. The hydrogen may not even need to be cooled, if it is pumped directly into a generator.

Arbor trees generate a large amount of wood mass, and currently the wood spawns in at a comfy temperature. Another balance change is to dramatically change the arbor tree's temperature range. If the tree needs a super hot climate for example, then the outputs become hot and require vastly increased effort to use.

[nivodeus]

Hopefully they will change things again, as of now it seems they just keep nerfing the cooling system. The one with WW is fine , albeit shocking but still manageable. Water sieve though, i think it's a bit much, i want to say they could reduce the min temp to somewhere 25-30 degree but i dont think it would change much as well. 

I can understand Desalinator and Carbon skimmer have min output of 40 degree but sieve water is something that in my mind should not add that much heat, since the machine itself generate heat. Maybe something in the line of increasing the heat output of the machine and reducing the min temp, i dont know. It's disappointing but I'm sure they will do something about it before launch, it seems right now they are also figuring things out how to exactly deal with adding heat and reducing heat in game. 

I just feel like what they are doing with this update will limit the way people play, by 'forcing' them to use the necessary setup. I dont know, I'll see what happened in a few days.

Also, can anyone explain to me about the 'fetching chore' thing? So what would happened now? Sometimes they release update with such little information, it's hard to interprete the meaning. 

[TheIceD]

>Large overhaul to conduit flow algorithms. It should run significantly faster and be more correct.

All fine except this new algo crashes. 

[bobucles]

4 minutes ago, nivodeus said:

in my mind should not add that much heat, since the machine itself generate heat

Machine generated heat is absolutely trivial next to anchored temperature output. For example a water sieve heating up 20C water to 40C output @ 5kg/s generates 418 kDTUs. The 4 kDTUs of the machine itself is a rounding error by comparison.

If fixed temperatures go away, machine heat would need to be dramatically increased to compensate. There's nothing wrong with heat being a long term issue, but the players definitely need to be able to understand the mechanics involved and common sense is the fastest teacher.

Edited July 4, 2019 by bobucles

[Nebbie]

4 minutes ago, nivodeus said:

Hopefully they will change things again, as of now it seems they just keep nerfing the cooling system. The one with WW is fine , albeit shocking but still manageable. Water sieve though, i think it's a bit much, i want to say they could reduce the min temp to somewhere 25-30 degree but i dont think it would change much as well. 

I can understand Desalinator and Carbon skimmer have min output of 40 degree but sieve water is something that in my mind should not add that much heat, since the machine itself generate heat. Maybe something in the line of increasing the heat output of the machine and reducing the min temp, i dont know. It's disappointing but I'm sure they will do something about it before launch, it seems right now they are also figuring things out how to exactly deal with adding heat and reducing heat in game. 

I just feel like what they are doing with this update will limit the way people play, by 'forcing' them to use the necessary setup. I dont know, I'll see what happened in a few days.

Also, can anyone explain to me about the 'fetching chore' thing? So what would happened now? Sometimes they release update with such little information, it's hard to interprete the meaning. 

I feel it's inappropriate in general for machines to rely on minimum output temperatures that are well above what's required for the correct phase of matter to come out, just increase the heat output of the machine.

I believe the fetching thing was that some machine needed A, but dupes wanted to fetch B before A, but they couldn't fetch B, so they never fetched A.

2 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

Holy game breaking fun. So this is what happens when your dupe accidentally grabs some 300C regolith.

Once you have breached the space biome, it will be near impossible to keep this from happening unless your sieve is full automated and supplied with cool sand/regolith.

 

I'm not too worried that there are some issues once you've breached gotten to space, but I do think they need to add vacuum heat radiation already and make space a cooling solution (radiate heat away with radiant pipes).

[bobucles]

3 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

Holy game breaking fun. So this is what happens when your dupe accidentally grabs some 300C regolith.

300C input makes 270C output? That also doesn't make sense because the sand has a very low specific heat next to the water. Regolith has a specific heat of 0.2 and the water is 4.2. 1kg of sand modifies 5kg of water, pushing the ratios even further. If the heat from 1kg of 300C regolith was added to 5kg of 0C water in a 100% one sided fashion, according to the kDTU system the water will only go up by a few degrees.

[Hedning]

29 minutes ago, DarkMaster13 said:

Why not have the sieve increase the input temperature?  Just a flat number like +15 C, or weighted with the thermal capacity of the inputs.  Increasing the temperature is fine, but I feel that it should be a valid strategy to put cooling on either side of the sieve rather than only the clean side.  The only major thing this nerfs then is the infinite bathroom / carbon skimmer loop.  This at least avoids the major newbie trap of trying to farm with sieved water.

So what is perhaps the very first refinement building you build adds 15° to an essential resource.

A lot of research later you get the ability to move (not remove) that heat for 1200W.

Seems balanced.

[MeepWantOmelett]

THIS IS NOT A REALISTIC PHYSICS SANDBOX. Why peoples just have to be such a #@$* about some temperatures. Devs, you can delete the sieve right now and just update the artwork of sushi and we re all happy

[nivodeus]

7 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

I feel it's inappropriate in general for machines to rely on minimum output temperatures that are well above what's required for the correct phase of matter to come out, just increase the heat output of the machine.

I believe the fetching thing was that some machine needed A, but dupes wanted to fetch B before A, but they couldn't fetch B, so they never fetched A.

I'm not too worried that there are some issues once you've breached gotten to space, but I do think they need to add vacuum heat radiation already and make space a cooling solution (radiate heat away with radiant pipes).

I agree. Adding heat output to the machine might help more, so it becomes like a mini aquatuner, that only specifically accept pWater. It still doesnt feel right, but let's see what they will do once they saw all the reactions from the update 

[Maleus M]

This last update is crashing my game, a map I started yesterday at Rime.  Also, I'm trying to send the crash report but it's not working. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Maleus M

[Droopi]

4 hours ago, Ipsquiggle said:

We've made some changes to the way the temperatures of building outputs are calculated. Buildings which were previously outputting at a fixed temperature (i.e. the Water Sieve at 40°C) now treat that configuration as a minimum output temperature. If input materials are hotter than this, the output temperature will be correspondingly raised.

 

This is great news for the last time!!!

Continue! The game is too easy for me and I've been losing interest lately, but this is what it takes!

[bobucles]

5 minutes ago, MeepWantOmelett said:

THIS IS NOT A REALISTIC PHYSICS SANDBOX.

A fair point. At the same time, three four five different thermal calculation systems currently exist in ONI.

- Thermal units which operate on material qualities and quantities. (machine heat, metal refinery, world materials)

- Flat temperature delta based on input (worts)

- Static temperature outputs (Fertilizer maker, other machines)

- Temperature outputs based on machine temperature (gas generator, others)

- Static temperature output, unless the inputs are hot then it uses the hotter temperature too (water sieve, electrolyzer???)

How many thermal systems do we really need?

[Loscil2]

3 hours ago, Alfons100 said:

Are Squeaky Pufts really that forgotten?

No, but they are that hated.

[Nebbie]

6 minutes ago, MeepWantOmelett said:

THIS IS NOT A REALISTIC PHYSICS SANDBOX. Why peoples just have to be such a #@$* about some temperatures. Devs, you can delete the sieve right now and just update the artwork of sushi and we re all happy

The trouble is that it's a half-realistic physics game, and the half that's missing actually includes some things that would be helpful, like not easily underpressuring bases from dupes' weird breathing, not losing water overall from farming, and being able to toss heat out into space. Furthermore, the incorrectness of fixed-temp output was making really cheaty ways to remove heat that made the actual intended ways to deal with heat rather redundant.

The water sieve is a nice machine as well that just needs to not be so important to base heating and cooling.

[Loscil2]

If anyone have played Invisible Inc, I remember some combos that are considered too OP but the devs explained that those tactics are valid cause they fun. What happened to that policy? The one where a game being "fun" triumphs over a game being masochistically "realist"?

[onodanger]

14 minutes ago, Maleus M said:

This last update is crashing my game, a map I started yesterday at Rime.  Also, I'm trying to send the crash report but it's not working. 

+1

[Nebbie]

3 minutes ago, Loscil2 said:

If anyone have played Invisible Inc, I remember some combos that are considered too OP but the devs explained that those tactics are valid cause they fun. What happened to that policy? The one where a game being "fun" triumphs over a game being masochistically "realist"?

I don't think the cooling loops that have existed in ONI are particularly fun, they require a lot of setup and just sort of obsoleted other ways of dealing with heat. It's a false dichotomy to pit realism against fun, the game will be less fun I think in the current update, but that's because we have unrealistic heat creation and are missing the most realistic way to deal with heat (radiate into space). The game would also be less masochistic with plants being more realistic (what kind of ridiculous plant needs solidified chlorine-bearing stones to make food, and where does all the water go in bristle blossoms?)

[MeepWantOmelett]

18 minutes ago, bobucles said:

A fair point. At the same time, three four five different thermal calculation systems currently exist in ONI.

- Thermal units which operate on material qualities and quantities. (machine heat, metal refinery, world materials)

- Flat temperature delta based on input (worts)

- Static temperature outputs (Fertilizer maker, other machines)

- Temperature outputs based on machine temperature (gas generator, others)

- Static temperature output, unless the inputs are hot then it uses the hotter temperature too (water sieve, electrolyzer???)

How many thermal systems do we really need?

YES YES YES, dumping all thats aways,please. Less calculations less lag. I just want enough science to build a zoo

 

17 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

 

The water sieve is a nice machine as well that just needs to not be so important to base heating and cooling.

I know, just want to point out the important of updating sushi artwork.

[Teunon]

So the only method to deal with heat now seems to be a steam turbine or pray you get enough cold biomes / AETNs. Which you'll find out several hours into each map. 

The only way I don't see this being a severely misguided decision is if there are more heat management options being added soon for early game.

[Nebbie]

Just now, Teunon said:

So the only method to deal with heat now seems to be a steam turbine or pray you get enough cold biomes / AETNs. Which you'll find out several hours into each map. 

The only way I don't see this being a severely misguided decision is if there are more heat management options being added soon for early game.

Has anyone done the math on the ice maker post-nerf? Previously it overall deleted quite a lot of heat, but I'm not sure now what the net effect is; I must strongly say that if overall adds heat, it's pointless to build because it's a huge waste of dupe labor relative to virtually any other possible way to move heat around.

[AddTheJuice98]

Just now, Teunon said:

So the only method to deal with heat now seems to be a steam turbine or pray you get enough cold biomes / AETNs. Which you'll find out several hours into each map. 

The only way I don't see this being a severely misguided decision is if there are more heat management options being added soon for early game.

There is a lots of ways you can use to deal with heat. Heat wasnt big problem at all, maybe now it become little bit harder but still not to hard. And if this is to hard for ya you always can use sandbox/devmode (=.

[zerat]

• The various water types now have different densities so they will sort out when stacked

Nice!

Also, I'm a fan of the output temperature changes!

[TheIceD]

And hey, while we are here, add water dispenser already. Building pitcher pump with pressure sensor and automated valve isn't that fun (and it just looks ugly on "industrial" base).

[Junksteel]

I like the output temp changes but I don't like the options we have to deal with it.

I embraced the WW change and accepted the nerf of ice machine but now I really don't know what to do and don't feel like having to build steam turbines to deal with small portions of heat spread through the base. It's fun to build steam turbines because they are complicated for me and requires preparation. Having to build one in order to survive is a different feeling and I don't like that.I don't even do space very often because I can't figure out myself how to cool robo miners. I will have anxiety thoughts since cycle 1 wondering if I'll be able to deal with heat like 1 or 2 weeks later playing the map.

Again, I like the changes but I think we don't have enough tools to deal with heat atm or at least they are not simple enough to be as popular as what we used to have.I don't want to rely purely on the genius of others' and I'm not sure I can do it by myself even having almost a 1000 hours. I know I'm dumb but you can call me average.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Junksteel

[BaloneyOs]

They just confirmed on stream that the new minimum temperature output is designed to be a problem so let me get this straight.

Instead of tweaking power requirement, building heat output, etc, they instead decided that difficulty should come from punishing players for using colder than minimum inputs. In the grand scheme of things the difficulty increase from this is marginal at best, but IMO it's a really lazy method of increasing difficulty.

Again, why does the difficulty increase need to come from the input material's temperature rather than aspects such as building requirements, planning, or map generation? What's actually the logic behind this decision?