ONI on Stadia

[jhohan29]

Hi to all. We have all experienced late game fps drop. Seems like the only solution is to have the latest and most expensive cpu/gpu combination to maintain a playable late game experience. However this is out of reach for most. A possible solution is game streaming services like Stadia, which will do all computation off-site. Based on their press release there will be a free Stadia subscription on 2020. What do you guys think?

[Nightinggale]

8 hours ago, jhohan29 said:

Seems like the only solution is to have the latest and most expensive cpu/gpu combination to maintain a playable late game experience.

You need a fast CPU and fast (low latency) RAM, preferably at least 16 GB. GPU... not so much. The low framerate seems to be CPU throttled, not GPU throttled. Back when I benchmarked, the GPU fan barely even started when I reached stable temperatures.

I don't know if Stadia is a good idea. I can see the idea, but I'm far from certain that a computer unable to play ONI will be a great platform for high framerate from some online server. Also I would wait and see if the final release has any noteworthy optimization before spending money on anything to speed up the game.

[chemie]

I dont plan to buy games twice

[blash365]

I play oni on a 5 year old cpu, which wasn't high end when i bought it back then. Still i am not experiencing the issues you are talking about to the extend that it breaks my game.

Maybe it would be more helpful to post your system stats so that we can actually identify the problem with your configuration instead of simply ranting away.

[Gurgel]

10 hours ago, jhohan29 said:

Hi to all. We have all experienced late game fps drop.

I still have not. Or rather I have complete playability at 20 FPS.

I do like Stadia, but probably not for the usual reasons. I do like that it runs the games on Linux and that may just be the breakthrough for gaming on Linux in general. If developers need to do a Linux version anyways for Stadia, why not do one for Linux PCs as well? Then my only use for Windows left would be Office for work and that I can lock into a VM. That said, lag and jitter for Stadia will depend very much on your Internet connectivity. How the experience will be remains to be seen. I do expect quite a bit of business will be replacing game-consoles with simple streaming-devices. 

[Saturnus]

11 hours ago, jhohan29 said:

Hi to all. We have all experienced late game fps drop. Seems like the only solution is to have the latest and most expensive cpu/gpu combination to maintain a playable late game experience. However this is out of reach for most. A possible solution is game streaming services like Stadia, which will do all computation off-site. Based on their press release there will be a free Stadia subscription on 2020. What do you guys think?

Most definitely. Stadia is the future. I'd pay for ONI twice again just to have it on Stadia.

But why wait. I'm already signed up for Stadia Pro.

[Nightinggale]

13 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Stadia is the future.

I sure hope not. If everything runs on Stadia, modding will end up being much harder than it is today. ONI haven't really gotten official mod support. It's only steam workshop support. The modding part is user created by people who figured it out on their own due to having access to the game files. If ONI was Stadia only, then no mods would exist for ONI.

[Saturnus]

Just now, Nightinggale said:

I sure hope not. If everything runs on Stadia, modding will end up being much harder than it is today. ONI haven't really gotten official mod support. It's only steam workshop support. The modding part is user created by people who figured it out on their own due to having access to the game files. If ONI was Stadia only, then no mods would exist for ONI.

Unsurprisingly, as we've discussed it before, I'm fully on board with that.

[Nightinggale]

2 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Unsurprisingly, as we've discussed it before, I'm fully on board with that.

Right. You are the guy, who think it's cheating to use a mod, which fixes a bug because if the release has a bug in it, the game is meant to be played with said bug.

Meaning the rest of us would be unhappy with losing mods.

[Saturnus]

Just now, Nightinggale said:

Meaning the rest of us would be unhappy with losing mods.

"The rest of us" might just be taking your personal view a bit too far.

Take the number of copies ONI have sold, and the number of people who've downloaded mods, and you'll quickly realize that the vast majority of users play the game vanilla.

[SharraShimada]

3 hours ago, Nightinggale said:

but I'm far from certain that a computer unable to play ONI will be a great platform for high framerate from some online server.

The opposite in fact. Streamed games can be used even on a toaster, if it has a display. You only need an internet connection fast enough, some input (mouse/keyboard/gamepad/joystick...) and some hardware to decode the video-stream. Nothing at all from the game is computed local.

And yes, ONI should run fine on stadia. Some input/transfer lag would not ruin the game at all. But there ist enough CPU-power to run 4k games at 60fps (besides the needed GPU, which wont count for ONI). I would expect to run the game on Stadia fine.

[Gurgel]

2 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Most definitely. Stadia is the future. 

I would call that a cautious "not quite yet". Sure, this _may_ be the future, but it is not the present and whether it will be the immediate future remains to be seen. My guess will be it will fail this time, due to lack of capacity, lack of good enough Internet speed, lack of reliability and lack of games on offer. This idea has failed a few times before and I think we may be getting closer. With a lot of money behind it, it may even be eventually the first one that works well, but that will still take a few years. The initial offer will be problematic and Google has a history of low endurance. 

Other than technology, this can also be killed by the usual corporate greed and stupidity. 

[Nightinggale]

10 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

it may even be eventually the first one that works well, but that will still take a few years.

Internet latency will always make it a better option to execute code locally. It's not a matter of "better technology", it's a hard physical limit, which we can't do anything about.

14 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Other than technology, this can also be killed by the usual corporate greed and stupidity. 

I view this as the core of streaming games. It allows subscriptions and removing games and whatever else they can come up with to make you keep paying. If you play a game like ONI, you pay once and then it's yours. Providing your computer doesn't break you can still play the same game 20 years from now without paying again. Subscription based gaming means you have to keep paying to play the same game and if they profit from removing your game, they can do so and you will lose your favorite game even if you want to pay.

Corporate greed means we need to buy new again and again and it's actually great if a game can't be played forever. Streaming is in the interest of big corporations, not the end user.

[JoeW]

Please keep comments relevant to the topic and without personal attacks. Thanks. 

[jhohan29]

9 hours ago, blash365 said:

I play oni on a 5 year old cpu, which wasn't high end when i bought it back then. Still i am not experiencing the issues you are talking about to the extend that it breaks my game.

Maybe it would be more helpful to post your system stats so that we can actually identify the problem with your configuration instead of simply ranting away.

Buddy, I love this game too. Thank you for defending ONI

However, I am just looking for possible solutions to late game fps drop. 

As per Stadia, this type of service requires advancement in technology. I think Google green lit this project because 5G technology is very near. This will complement their play anywhere with any device promise. 

Imagine playing ONI on a big phone/tablet...

[Maxposting]

21 hours ago, jhohan29 said:

 We have all experienced late game fps drop.

Not me!

literally has normal mealwood farmplots on cycle 280

[Yoma_Nosme]

On the ''stadia vs. mod'' topic 

How sure are you that  there will be no mods? 

Maybe for oni. Cant believe i said that..Time will tell how the game prevail time. I hope people will play and mod it. 

But 

Look at Skyrim on ps4. Mods available. Through PlayStation ''shop''...whatever the name, and no one would have had guessed when it was released on pc...

To conclude. On my part. Maybe stevia but no mods, would be very sad.

[Nightinggale]

1 hour ago, Yoma_Nosme said:

How sure are you that  there will be no mods? 

It looks to me like Stadia is like Diablo 3 as in opening a chest will ask a server to render the items for you. It's a heavily debated anti-cheat mechanism, but the idea is that if the code is only on the server, the player's computer will never see the code, only the output, then the player can't mod the code to cheat.

The same thing is the case with Stadia. If the files are only on the server, not the local computer and all the player can see is the resulting screen, then the player has no way of browsing through the files and figure out how to mod the game. We only gained ONI mods because people have access to the files and figured out how to do stuff without Klei doing anything. If ONI was Stadia only, we know we wouldn't have that kind of access, hence no way to make the mods.

Games can add official mod support and that could work with Stadia meaning it's not a "mods will never exist on Stadia" claim. It's about modding something, which isn't officially intended to be modded meaning mods can do stuff the developers didn't plan for them to do.

Also I would like to add that Stadia earns nothing from mods. They do however earn from people paying for adding DLCs. It's not in the financial interest for them to add proper mod support.

[blash365]

6 hours ago, jhohan29 said:

Buddy, I love this game too. Thank you for defending ONI

However, I am just looking for possible solutions to late game fps drop. 

As per Stadia, this type of service requires advancement in technology. I think Google green lit this project because 5G technology is very near. This will complement their play anywhere with any device promise. 

Imagine playing ONI on a big phone/tablet...

I am not defending oni. I am saying that your post is not constructive since you provide ZERO information apart from the fact that your fps are too low, which is in itself a very subjective fact. When? "in lategame". What is lategame? cycle 100? cycle 1000? 5 dupes? 10 dupes? 100 dupes? completely dug out map? small cave with mealwood farm? Maybe you are using jetpacks?

Your post is merely your opinion with no chance for anybody but you to make any constructive use of it. Unless of course you enjoy piling on a topic ranting about low fps.

 

Post your system stats and more details on when you experience your issues.

 

 

Regarding new techologies like Stadia and 5g. There are many downsides to these kinds of services:

stadia

• unclear ownership of games (most likely just a subscription)
• privacy issues (hello google)
• resource issues (what has a bigger economic footprint? having a pc for every player or streaming every game over the web?)
• costs (now you pay for a game licence and a piece of hardware, there you pay for a subscription after which you own nothing)

5g

• it is not here yet
• will it be fast enough when it is here?
• will it be affordable?
• will it be available?
• will it be reliable?
• is it even technically feasable? i have heard that you need a transmitter for every kilometer (!) of range. does not sound like a scalable solution to me

 

So yeah. If you really just want high fps, dont care to solve the actual problem and have blind faith in technology and corporations, then stadia might be your way to go.

[Nightinggale]

6 hours ago, jhohan29 said:

I am just looking for possible solutions to late game fps drop. 

Using Stadia to gain more CPU power sounds like a horrible idea. It sounds kind of like fixing a gas tank leak with the solution "refill more often to counter the loss". The carbon footprint of the internet is twice as high as the footprint from all the airliners. Part of the reason is thinking like this. Just put the calculations on some server and everything will be fine.

The only real solution to the low FPS problem is to get Klei to optimize the code to lower system requirements. Any other solution contains major flaws. Unsurprisingly it seems that Klei is in fact interested in releasing without the low FPS issue.

[Saturnus]

1 hour ago, blash365 said:

stadia

• unclear ownership of games (most likely just a subscription)
• privacy issues (hello google)
• resource issues (what has a bigger economic footprint? having a pc for every player or streaming every game over the web?)
• costs (now you pay for a game licence and a piece of hardware, there you pay for a subscription after which you own nothing)

1) You don't "own" games on almost any online service today. For example, you don't own ONI if you bought it through Steam. So no change there.
2) Playing through Steam has less or more privacy issues? Somehow I think most people trust Google a far cry more than Steam with personal data.
3) Streaming over the web have vastly, like a factor of more than 10, less resource waste. Remember the resources spent to make and ship the PC parts as well. Add that datacenters constantly are on the cutting edge of efficiency because power/performance is what it is all about.
4) The current Stadia model only requires to pay a subscription if you want the play 4K 60fps. If you can live with 1080p 60fps or lower there's no additional subscription fees. Note that all games run at (or near) maximum detail settings regardless of resolution. Edit: I forgot to mention, Stadia does not require you to purchase any additional hardware.

[Promethien]

There are too many advantages to doing the computing with your own hardware. Most notably no latency and not having to sell another shard of your soul to Alphabet Inc. Which means there will always be a market for actually owning your own games or at least having a download license (ahem, Steam, ahem). If Google does it right it can end the console market but unless they do some evil fuckery (admittedly, high chance of this) there will be no difference between developing a game for Stadia vs letting us download and run the game ourselves. So the digital download market will remain for the majority of the world that isn't yet on fiber optics. 

[Nightinggale]

27 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

1) You don't "own" games on almost any online service today. For example, you don't own ONI if you bought it through Steam. So no change there.

Not only is that statement greatly against the user, it's also dubious. You buy or purchase a license with a one time payment and then you rent it forever without paying more. There have been court rulings that agreements of such nature are actually selling rather than renting and as such the laws of trading applies instead of the laws of renting. Currently the US farmers are trapped in a situation where they can't buy farming equipment, but they can rent it for a one time fee. This means even though they pay for it, they aren't allowed to use them as they like. For instance they are forced to get them repaired and serviced at authorized repairshops at whatever price the manufactor demands. This is a rather hot issue and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up in supreme court and rules in favor of the farmers. If that happens, services like Steam could be forced to admit they are actually selling software.

Streaming services like Stadia wouldn't be affected by such a ruling.

[blash365]

58 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

1) You don't "own" games on almost any online service today. For example, you don't own ONI if you bought it through Steam. So no change there.

While it is correct that there is a difference between buying a software on dvd and on steam, you are still buying the licence of the game on steam. So you own it indefinitely provided that you do not lose access to steam, which is free.

Stadia uses a businessmodel based on subscriptions, where you do not own anything.

So big change there.

58 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

2) Playing through Steam has less or more privacy issues? Somehow I think most people trust Google a far cry more than Steam with personal data.

True, steam collects data and definitely should be taken with a grain of salt. But saying "hey, that corporation also does bad things" is not exactly and argument. One might even call it diversion.

58 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

3) Streaming over the web have vastly, like a factor of more than 10, less resource waste. Remember the resources spent to make and ship the PC parts as well. Add that datacenters constantly are on the cutting edge of efficiency because power/performance is what it is all about.

Yes, if you count the logistics and production for the PC parts and do neglect the logistics and maintenance costs of the infrastructure, then it might be pretty obvious.

I am not even saying that streaming isnt less resource intensive. But i'd still take it with a grain of salt.

And btw cutting edge also requires constant replacement of parts.

58 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

4) The current Stadia model only requires to pay a subscription if you want the play 4K 60fps. If you can live with 1080p 60fps or lower there's no additional subscription fees. Note that all games run at (or near) maximum detail settings regardless of resolution. Edit: I forgot to mention, Stadia does not require you to purchase any additional hardware.

"If you're not paying for it, you become the product."

[Saturnus]

11 minutes ago, blash365 said:

Stadia uses a businessmodel based on subscriptions, where you do not own anything.

No. It's exactly the same as Steam. You buy a license for the game.

11 minutes ago, blash365 said:

One might even call it diversion.

You argued that streaming would be necessarily mean more privacy issues. There's nothing to suggest that. I see it the other way, and that it would involve much less privacy issues.

11 minutes ago, blash365 said:

Yes, if you count the logistics and production for the PC parts and do neglect the logistics and maintenance costs of the infrastructure, then it might be pretty obvious.

PCs require no more or less infrastructure than streaming service because the infrastructure will be there regardless, so you don't have an argument on that point.

It is an irrefutable fact that data centers are vastly more efficient than home PCs. There's not even any reason to argue this point. It is self-evident.