Going over 20kw

[Gus Smedstad]

I recently saw a section of heavi-watt cable complain about circuit overload in my colony. So clearly, just for a moment, I had more than 20kw traveling over my main power backbone.

I've got a central power plant with most of my power production, but I have some remote power generation going on for a variety of reasons. The thing that pushed it over the edge is that I added a steam turbine to my network. It's really primarily for cooling, so 90% of the time it doesn't run. I don't get cable damage every time it runs either. Just the one time, so far.

There are a couple of minor things (600 watts or so) connected directly to the main backbone, but almost everything is fed via large power transformers. I don't really know how many of those I have. I'm sure my total possible draw is far, far over 20kw, but most of the time only a fraction of it is running. Airlocks being the obvious example, since those can draw 120 watts each but rarely use it.

I really have no idea how to resolve this. I don't want to start cutting things back, and there's no obvious way to, say, split it into two separate networks. While it's quite easy to see how many direct consumers are connected to a single 2kw circuit, there's no way to see how many transformers are connected to a circuit. Other than counting them off locally, I guess.

I saw an earlier thread here on the subject, and didn't really find it helpful. For one thing, I'm not really inclined to play games with the game's logic to fake it into thinking there's less than 20kw running in a power line even though there really is. For another, my understanding is that you have to completely disconnect all your transformers if you use that rapidly oscillating battery connection thingie, and that not something I'm prepared to do. Particularly in areas where space is at a premium and replacing a transformer with a large, complicated battery-switcher would be impractical.

 

[Neotuck]

adding a steam turbine won't cause overloads

you can have hundreds of generators running on a single metal ore wire and it won't overload

the overload comes from power consumers, if you are trying to pull over 20kw then overloads will start to happen

[JackOverkill]

29 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

adding a steam turbine won't cause overloads

you can have hundreds of generators running on a single metal ore wire and it won't overload

the overload comes from power consumers, if you are trying to pull over 20kw then overloads will start to happen

so if i have my generators making 10k per sec connect to battery then with a transformer using 2k wire . then the output uses 10k with 20k wire is fine ?

[Xuhybrid]

You'd hit the 20kw with 5 large transformers if they could use 4kw to fill batteries. If there's no batteries on their output line it should be fine to have 10 large transformers. That's basically your limit per main power grid.

[mathmanican]

2 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

I'm not really inclined to play games with the game's logic

Then you're stuck making several separate main power lines, that have nothing to do with each other.  Sorry mate.  By the way, such things exist in real life. 

[Neotuck]

6 hours ago, JackOverkill said:

so if i have my generators making 10k per sec connect to battery then with a transformer using 2k wire . then the output uses 10k with 20k wire is fine ?

if you have only 1 transformer then you will have some brownouts trying to pull 10k

build 5 of them but no more

[Gus Smedstad]

4 hours ago, mathmanican said:

By the way, such things exist in real life. 

By "playing games with the game's logic," I mean the thing where you can apparently move an unlimited amount of power over a 1kw wire.

I'm pretty sure no one is delivering 100kw of power over a 20 gauge extension cord. So no, that doesn't exist in real life.

 

7 hours ago, Neotuck said:

adding a steam turbine won't cause overloads

Well, in theory it might if I didn't have any batteries on the main power line. 100kw of consumers but only 10kw of power generation can't cause overloads. It's just that batteries can deliver their entire reserve in one second, up to 20kw per smart battery, if the demand is high enough.

Of course I do have a lot of batteries connected. Smart batteries for each type of generator to prioritize them, plus a bank of reserve power that I needed to even out demand.

The circuit overload happened shortly after I attached the steam turbine, that's why I was thinking it mattered.

[Neotuck]

11 minutes ago, Gus Smedstad said:

Well, in theory it might if I didn't have any batteries on the main power line. 100kw of consumers but only 10kw of power generation can't cause overloads. It's just that batteries can deliver their entire reserve in one second, up to 20kw per smart battery, if the demand is high enough.

Of course I do have a lot of batteries connected. Smart batteries for each type of generator to prioritize them, plus a bank of reserve power that I needed to even out demand.

The circuit overload happened shortly after I attached the steam turbine, that's why I was thinking it mattered.

the consumers are what cause the overload, not the producers

safest way is to link all your generators and batteries on one 20kw heavy wire and set up 5 transformers to distribute power where needed 

[Gus Smedstad]

I've got a lot more than 5 transformers, and a lot more than 20kw of aggregate demand. It's just that it's almost never all going at once.

In fact I have 49 large power transformers, each feeding consumers averaging around 1500-1600 watts each, for a total possible demand of 80ish kw.

I have 6 natural gas generators, 3 petrol generators, 3 solar panels, 4 hydrogen generators, 4 coal generators, and a steam turbine. With engineer tuning, total power generation is 23kw. In practice, the coal generators are always disabled by a smart battery, so it maxes out at 19kw unless the turbine comes on line, in which case it's 21kw.

Normal consumption is 7 to 9 million joules per cycle, or an average of 11 to 15kw average load. It's just that the peak is potentially much higher, and must have been to get cable damage.

[Neotuck]

Well as long as you manage keep no more than 5 transformers pulling at the same time you should be fine

[Gus Smedstad]

I'd still like a solution that relies on more than hope. Also, it seems likely I'll hit a regular demand of 20+kw in the not too distant future. A liquid oxygen / liquid hydrogen setup will easily add another 3kw of fairly common demand.

[Yunru]

1 minute ago, Gus Smedstad said:

I'd still like a solution that relies on more than hope. Also, it seems likely I'll hit a regular demand of 20+kw in the not too distant future. A liquid oxygen / liquid hydrogen setup will easily add another 3kw of fairly common demand.

You... have it?

The only solution is to cap your peak. If that means running multiple main power lines... so be it.

[Nitroturtle]

Yeah as others have said (I've dealt with this exact issue myself, as well as others I'm sure) you basically have two options:

1. Switching batteries using automation
2. Split up power grid into multiple sections

I suppose if you wanted to get creative, you could use automation to limit the number of transformers able to draw power at a single time, but I think that would get very messy with automation wires running all over the place.

[Gus Smedstad]

I'm not seeing what you're suggesting. Suppose, for example, I split my power network into 5 groups, each with 10 each large power transformers hooked to at most 2kw of consumers. How exactly do I feed power to those 5 segments?

[Junksteel]

Seems like you'll need to consider a second power system running for the new stuff you plan to add.

[Neotuck]

It would be more effective to use 20 small Transformers then 10 large ones because the large ones pull up to 4kw each

[Gus Smedstad]

I'm pretty sure transformers can't pull more than what's being demanded on the other side.

Imagine you've got a large transformer, with its internal 4kj buffer. If the other side drains 2kw, that's 2kj each second it's going to draw from main line to refill that buffer. It's only going to draw 4kw in the second after It's been built.

16 minutes ago, Junksteel said:

Seems like you'll need to consider a second power system running for the new stuff you plan to add.

A separate power grid for each group of 10 large transformers seems a little prohibitive. Not to mention there's the question of what to do with the sources that are erratic in their supply, like the solar panels and steam turbines. (At present I have just one steam turbine, but I'm expecting to build at least 3 more, primarily for cooling in each case rather than their power generation).

[Neotuck]

That's not how Transformers work

[Gus Smedstad]

OK, so how do transformers work, then? How does 2kw of draw on the client side translate to 4kw of draw on the main power line?

[Neotuck]

I'm not home right now but if you don't mind waiting a few hours I'll be home this afternoon, set up some tests with debug, and post screenshots

[Gus Smedstad]

I've been reading more about how those battery-switching designs work. I didn't find what Saturnus wrote helpful, but I did find this thread much clearer:

Essentially it's a substitute for transformers that can handle any amount of power (subject to power line limits), rather than 1 kw or 4kw. It has the drawback that it can't be fed directly by any circuit that involves batteries, which both precludes a central battery bank and generator control using smart batteries.

The exploit issue is that generator -> battery doesn't count as a power draw, so you can run a basic 1kw line between your generators and this switching "transformer" without causing an overload, provided there are no consumers on the line. I'm not willing to do that, personally.

You can get around the "no battery on the generator side" issue by isolating your generators, controlling smart batteries, and central power bank from the switching "transformer" with regular transformers. For example, 15kw in generators + batteries -> 4x large transformer -> "switching" transformer -> load works fine.

You could just connect the 4x transformers in this example directly, and eliminate the "switching" transformer. The main advantage is if you use the exploit to exceed the 20kw limit.

For example, two generator banks, each generating 15kw -> transformers -> central power line -> multiple switching "transformers" feeding large grids with under 20kw loads. You can't do this with regular transformers because they count as a load, and that central power line is potentially carrying 30kw of power.

That central power line could be a 1kw wire, since it's always transformers -> batteries with no loads. I'm not sure it salves my conscience to use a 20kw line instead, since it's still carrying more than the rated load.

Let's say you have two 15kw generator groups, each with its own main power line, and 5 load groups with no more than 20kw each. Each load group connects to each power line via a switching "transformer," for a total of 10 of the things. Each main power line never carries more than 15kw. The load groups carry no more than 20kw internally, and can draw from either or both power sources.

I guess that works. Being strict about the load groups having no more than 20kw is probably overkill - I've got a single line with 80kw of potential load right now, and most of the time it's not a problem. Splitting it into two 40kw groups would probably still be safe.

It's like local circuits with lots of airlock doors. Most of the time, only one or two of the doors is in use. If you run 30 of them from a single 2kw line, the total load is potentially 3.6 kw, but in reality it's unlikely to be more than 600 watts at a time.  I don't do that because I'm paranoid, but you could.

[Gus Smedstad]

I've done a fair bit of wiring in a game where transformers did actually change the voltage. I'm speaking specifically of the Gregtech mod for Minecraft, which is enough of a tech mod that it's practically a total overhaul of the game. It was pretty routine to boost voltage up to 8kv for the backbone power line, and then step it down to 128v or 32v for actual power consumers.

I wonder if Klei is ever going to re-vamp their power system, so generator -> battery power transfers count toward a line's power limit. If that every happens, people using the battery-switching setups will abruptly see those main power lines fry.

[Saturnus]

38 minutes ago, Gus Smedstad said:

I wonder if Klei is ever going to re-vamp their power system, so generator -> battery power transfers count toward a line's power limit. If that every happens, people using the battery-switching setups will abruptly see those main power lines fry.

So? Those that use battery switching set ups are typically the most technically skilled players. It wouldn't be disaster for them. They'll just rework the power system to whatever the new framework allows. Battery switching set ups is just the most efficient set up currently possible when you have to deal with huge power systems.

[Neotuck]

32 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

So? Those that use battery switching set ups are typically the most technically skilled players. It wouldn't be disaster for them. They'll just rework the power system to whatever the new framework allows. Battery switching set ups is just the most efficient set up currently possible when you have to deal with huge power systems.

well said,

[Xuhybrid]

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