Welfare Pod still needs more balancing.

[RonEmpire]

Is it safe to say the general consensus is give players more options to play it their own way.    This game is a single player game.   Enjoyment varies from player to player in terms of how they play.   Some want more challenges, others just want to just have fun,  some are just so new to the game - anything to help them get started or move along is probably a good thing.

 

[SakuraKoi]

13 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

It would take 41.6 cycles for one FM to make 3 tonnes.

and? Two and it is just 20 cycles, not that time matters when one does not need much per cycle

13 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

It would take 1625kg of Dirt to make 3 tonnes.

and? that ain't much, that's 1/100th of the dirt one gets from their starting biome (if not less)

13 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

One would need to sieve 40.6 tonnes of pH2O to get this much Dirt.

and? you get ~1t of dirt if you fly to a Terrestrial Planet, plus 1t of algae as bonus (which makes it 1,5t dirt if you feed it to Pacu, it takes merely 12 to get that much dirt from algae alone in a cycle). And yes, dirt only gets scarce that late unless you did feed it to hatches

13 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

Those numbers are staggering.

statistics one manipulates for that very purpose, deliberately or not, tend to fulfill it. It's like you did not consider that one could just use two FMs, that one may not even need one for sufficient production (or two, one covers 14 plants, enough for 10 duplicants when berry sludge speed farming), that one has several hundred tons of dirt originally available and that one can get dirt elsewhere/a sieve needs just ~13 cycles to produce that much

not to mention that the offer will probably not appear for hundred cycles on average. 

tl;dr, you exaggerate, overreact, please, stahp

[Lilalaunekuh]

1 hour ago, WanderingKid said:

In this regard, gating care packages for some reason (research, found item, time, whatever) can be a viable alternative.  I don't personally think a time gate is valid. 

I thought much about which kind of gating would be the better one for "most" playstyles, so our favorite options would be:

(https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/102395-new-printing-pod-feature/ options ordered by votes.)

-Time

-Lore buildings

-Space artifacts

-Research

Like @WanderingKid I would prefer an other option instead of just time. The need to print duplicants over resources is the only "real" time based factor, considering everything else is very playstyle dependent.

=> I vote against the current / (most voted gating system) using the reached cycle.

 

8 minutes ago, SakuraKoi said:

13 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

Those numbers are staggering.

statistics one manipulates for that very purpose, deliberately or not, tend to fulfill it.

Compared to other care packages the options for lime and fertilizer are still the ones that stick out.

(Lime was mostly a concern when it was 500kg, but the current 150kg packet is still one of the most impactful.)

 

But the best comparison for fertilzer is still the amount spawned in a new map.

My current seed contains just 1,3 t fertilizer (a bit on the lower end, but just consider it as a random seed), so after digging it all up without some loss to hatches or heat I would have ~650kg.

=> Close to 5 times the amount of fertilzer spawned on my (standart sized) map possibly every 3 cycles

 

[SakuraKoi]

2 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

=> Close to 5 times the amount of fertilzer spawned on my (standart sized) map possibly every 3 cycles

possibly every 3 cycles... for what reason? Mainly, why would one savescum that? That the map does not spawn much is pretty much irrelevant. One can easily make much more and by that logic even 500kg would be impactful.

Calling it Welfare Pod is simply silly and neither "jackpot" is gamebreaking since the latter would still only be 1,5t steel which would not be enough for a single project besides a small protective wall.

Personally I am rather fond of the literary cool materials, they have more lasting impact~

[Lilalaunekuh]

3 hours ago, SakuraKoi said:

One can easily make much more and by that logic even 500kg would be impactful.

     5kg of fertilzer  =>      1 cycle of plant growth

 500kg of fertilzer  => 100 cycles of plant growth

(      3t of fertilizer  => 600 cycles of plant growth)

=> So yes I would say 500kg of fertilzer are impactful.

(Not saying it´s broken, it´s more about creating an interesting choice.)

 

3 hours ago, SakuraKoi said:

possibly every 3 cycles... for what reason? Mainly, why would one savescum that?

Not saying you would want to do it every 3 cycles and the chances you even could are low. (I am not considering savescumming.)

 

To produce 3t of fertilizer you need ~3000kj just for the fertilizer synthesizer.

(Not accounting for a water pump and possible automation/auto sweeper or dupplicant time to perform supply tasks).

=> Is there any other care package that comes even close if you just think about the power investment?

If we factor in the produced natural gas the "real" power investment is much smaller ...

[GemeinerJack]

26 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

To produce 3t of fertilizer you need ~3000kj just for the fertilizer synthesizer

(Not accounting for a water pump and possible automation/auto sweeper or dupplicant time to perform supply tasks).

=> Is there any other care package that comes even close if you just think about the power investment?

Considering the temperature the stuff comes in? 4 tons of "water" at -40°C, considering the normal way to get that would be 6.7kg/dupe/cycle at 40°C or geyser at 110°C
Especially the geyser water would be heavy with 10 aquatuner runtimes to cool down 10kg so... 4000 seconds of aquatuner at full blast or a little bit over 6.5 cycles... should be close to 10000 kj
Even just considering the water bottle itself: 2000 at 9°C still means arround 1444 seconds aquatuner or around 3400 kj
even if you go with super coolant in the aqua tuner to cool down the water, it would probably around 1.5 cycles of runtime or something around 2100 kj

so power investment, yearh sure, a lot of them can go toe to toe with that

[Mr.Trueba]

If someone from Klei is reading this strange discussion, I just want to tell you that the change they made to the print pod seems to me EXCELLENT.

It is a survival game, single player, where each one of us should have the opportunity to play AS WE WANT. There is no need to compete or that everything is extremely balanced. Simply, you are against the machine and if you do not like something, then do not use it. That's it.

I know that for many this new help will be spectacular in its first hours of play, and for the most experienced will be a detail to continue using the print pod, which most of us before the 100 cycles left it permanently off. At 500 cycles, when you know how to play, there is nothing you can print that you do not already have in excess, but the tungsten and the plants are always very welcome.

Anyway, thanks for the effort and for these little details. Some strive to get a little more dirt for their food (because they still do not know that they can grow other types of plants) and others strive to collect all the artifacts from space, even the most distant ones.
And do you know what is the best of all this? We can ALL enjoy the game, each at their own pace and in the way they like the most. (:

 

[SakuraKoi]

24 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

=> Is there any other care package that comes even close if you just think about the power investment?

3.000 kg Coal * 0,6 efficiency => 1800kW, quite close (and did I mention how cool the coal is?) 

but wait, it's actually 0,9 efficiency if one uses chips (which one should) so 2700 kW, very close indeed.

and actually, making fertilizer also makes natural gas, 250 kg if you make 3 tons, those 250 kg would then become... 2.222 kW or rather 3.333 kW, so yes you read right, one can still get energy while making fertilizer, even if you move 1t of water since moving 10kg costs mere 240 W i.e 24 kW. Straining your robot arms would cost 120 kW per additional second (and it should really just be 2+1), making Fertilizer making slightly cost energy.

 

on a side note... I sure do not cool water which does not need to be cooled, like such which becomes fertilizer but hey, if it is a slush geyser~ 

[Chaoticlusts]

On 12/02/2019 at 2:57 AM, withers said:

Here’s idea.  Make it a  “wildcard” drop with a chance of being something bad.  You don’t know what you’ll get until you select it.    You might get 3 tonnes of useful fertilizer.  On the other hand, you might get 30 tonnes of liquid poo.

I love this idea! 

Even if the old choices remain please please implement this one Klei :). 

Just have it as a mix of a couple of huge bonuses, a few large ones, several standard ones, several standard ones with drawbacks (come with germs attached or similar) and a few awful ones.  To add some awful ones to the '30 tons of liquid poo' suggestion how about 5 tons of 1750c magma , 200,000 tons of Abyssalite or 40 adult shove voles 

[Mr.Trueba]

6 minutes ago, Chaoticlusts said:

40 adult shove voles 

My favorite part. 

[Lilalaunekuh]

1 hour ago, GemeinerJack said:

Considering the temperature the stuff comes in? 4 tons of "water" at -40°C, considering the normal way to get that would be 6.7kg/dupe/cycle at 40°C or geyser at 110°C

I just thought about energy investment to create a resource, because it´s unavoidable.

But when do you need a resource at a specific (low) temperature that would require the use of an aquatuner/thermo regulator ?

1 hour ago, SakuraKoi said:

I sure do not cool water which does not need to be cooled

=> Using a (passive/powerless) heat exchanger will not yield -40°C cold resources, but cold enough for the "usual" applications.

(PS: I build a conductive area around my printing pod to use the freshly printed resources for some cooling.)

 

1 hour ago, SakuraKoi said:

2 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

=> Is there any other care package that comes even close if you just think about the power investment?

3.000 kg Coal * 0,6 efficiency => 1800kW, quite close (and did I mention how cool the coal is?) 

but wait, it's actually 0,9 efficiency if one uses chips (which one should) so 2700 kW, very close indeed.

If we consider the potential energy (and we should) coal comes very close.

(Thank you for pointing that out. I done my comparisons with (mostly) player made resources lime/steel/plastic/glass.)

 

1 hour ago, SakuraKoi said:

making fertilizer also makes natural gas, 250 kg if you make 3 tons, those 250 kg would then become... 2.222 kW

That´s a big factor I missed.

 

=> The "real" power investment to create fertilizer is way lower than my quick estimate ^^

 

1 hour ago, Chaoticlusts said:

On 11.2.2019 at 7:57 PM, withers said:

Here’s idea.  Make it a  “wildcard” drop with a chance of being something bad.  You don’t know what you’ll get until you select it.    You might get 3 tonnes of useful fertilizer.  On the other hand, you might get 30 tonnes of liquid poo.

I love this idea! 

In a game about careful planning a random option (on top of a random feature) seems like the worst thing possible to me.

(Sure it could be fun, but my humble opinion would be that it doesn´t reflect the "spirit" of the game.)

 

[Chaoticlusts]

1 hour ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

In a game about careful planning a random option (on top of a random feature) seems like the worst thing possible to me.

(Sure it could be fun, but my humble opinion would be that it doesn´t reflect the "spirit" of the game.)

 

I was thinking 100% optional.  Basically something that would appear as one of the four options sometimes, provide some fun for those who like it and completely ignorable to those who don't

 

*edit* also adding this whole system (as it stands now regardless of other changes) to the world spawn options seems a great way to keep everyone happy

[DaveSatx]

i think they need to tie the care packages to the game settings at some point.  eventually.

gating by research would be a good idea.  random stuff that you can't really use yet is not terrible though.

500kg of fertilizer.. or dirt or anything for that matter is really, ultimately, trivial.  constructive conversations are helpful to the unfolding game of course..

 

i'm surprised to not find discussions on how buggy the errand system now is.   i have a hell of a time getting sweeping done now, takes a ton of micromanagement and they sometimes just freeze in place and refuse to move until i reload the game.   hope they get that stuff fixed asap before worrying about this care package stuff.

[Lilalaunekuh]

1 hour ago, Chaoticlusts said:

I was thinking 100% optional.  Basically something that would appear as one of the four options sometimes, provide some fun for those who like it and completely ignorable to those who don't

Like I said it would be fun.

Looking for a random selected care package with a random output seems bit to uncertain for my taste.

=> If there would be a meaningful difference between the "random" care package and selecting a care package at random I would approve it

 

1 hour ago, DaveSatx said:

gating by research would be a good idea.  random stuff that you can't really use yet is not terrible though.

Not sure if the gating is good in general, I would prefer more allowed resources for more randomness.

But I am against the "time based" gating, considering how playstyles distinguish from each other.

If I want to run a 3 duplicant colony or a 30 duplicant one ...

=> Gating should reflect game progression.

(I prefer gating by lore buildings over research, but both are valid options.)

[badgamer123]

the most useful thing i can use fert is feeding it to hatch or cook it....3t is not that much.
and farm station sux.

[Chaoticlusts]

53 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Like I said it would be fun.

Looking for a random selected care package with a random output seems bit to uncertain for my taste.

=> If there would be a meaningful difference between the "random" care package and selecting a care package at random I would approve it

How about having it as a permanent 5th option at the bottom of each Printing Pod choice.  Basically you can take the known quantities you're offered or you can have your dupe press ALL THA BUTTONS and hope you get something great but maybe get a disaster  

Hell you could add an extremely rare chance for a super dupe and a super derp dupe too..... and a 'please kill me' bundle of flesh for a huge morale hit....  

*edit* I know you said you feel it doesn't fit the flavour, oddly I feel exactly the opposite to that but that's just how things go it's all personal opinion and preference   I love the game and I'm quite sure I'll be happy with whatever direction Klei goes with the final touches, have been so far.

[SakuraKoi]

3 hours ago, badgamer123 said:

the most useful thing i can use fert is feeding it to hatch or cook it....3t is not that much.
and farm station sux.

I've got a message from the Farm Station for you: "nope~"

 

by the by, always having another option which drops a random care package from a separate list through what amounts to a slot machine or wheel of fortune where you may get nothing or something awesome. I'd like that! And then make it possible to use 100 kg Gold to recharge the machine/pod.

Though I am afraid that this would skyrocket the the age rating of ONI... mayhaps Lootboxes would be better then, however those I despise.

[badgamer123]

4 hours ago, Chaoticlusts said:

How about having it as a permanent 5th option at the bottom of each Printing Pod choice.  Basically you can take the known quantities you're offered or you can have your dupe press ALL THA BUTTONS and hope you get something great but maybe get a disaster  

Hell you could add an extremely rare chance for a super dupe and a super derp dupe too..... and a 'please kill me' bundle of flesh for a huge morale hit....  

*edit* I know you said you feel it doesn't fit the flavour, oddly I feel exactly the opposite to that but that's just how things go it's all personal opinion and preference   I love the game and I'm quite sure I'll be happy with whatever direction Klei goes with the final touches, have been so far.

Would give too much incentive to save scum?

[avc15]

Bring it back to a second to the one specific care package, 3 tonnes of fertilizer. Someone near the top of the thread said something that made me double-take: fertilizer is a really "uninteresting" option? Was the word used "meh"? If that's what you think, you might not realize how good fertilizer is.

So let's compare this one to another with the most direct equivalency: water. The water care package is 2 tons of water (2 full tiles of water). If you look at fertilizer as a resource, mostly what it does is offset water use.

Let's make us some gristle berries (I claim this is a fair viewpoint because this food makes fertilizer look least good of anything accessible in the early game - try some others). 5kg of fertilizer applies farmer's touch to a single crop for 1 day, doubling growth rate without changing water consumption. Each crop uses 20 kg/water per day overall (polluted and clean water combined). Now, if I'm using fertilizer I only need half as many farming units.

Fertilizing 1 plants continually costs 5kg of fertilizer per day, and saves 20 kg of water per day (the amount the 2nd crop would have used that we just don't plant now). each 1kg of fertilizer offsets at least 4kg of water use. The 3 tons of fertilizer is equivalent to 12 tiles of water.

The other comparable care package is clean H20, and you get 2 tiles worth of water. The fertilizer care package is 6 times better than the water care package.

If I was going to adjust the balance on this one specific item I'd change the fertilizer drop to 750kg, making it about 50% better than the water package but a little more selective in who it appeals to.

 

 

[cpy]

Can we get wolframite planet/tungsten volcano? Or welfare pod drop?

[Nova_Belle]

I know someone else mentioned it, but I'll say it again:  I find the term 'Welfare Pod' quite offensive. 

[Angpaur]

So many people being constantly offended by things these days...

Soon nobody will be able to joke about anything.

[Nova_Belle]

I apologize for ruining your fun by being upset by a thing that people hate me for.  Personally, I'd rather not have to get that jolt when I come to a forum about a game I enjoy, but if my offense is offensive to you, I do apologize.

Sincerely.

[Angpaur]

Don't worry about me, It really takes much more to offended me

I just miss the old days, when people used to have more sense of humor and generally seemed to be happier.

[badgamer123]

ok back to the topic...as: avc15 mention fertilizer save resource.it does what it does in a greenhouse.
but ...what plant you going to use it on is a big problem...
in most of the time you can get enough Pincha ,Sleet Wheat from the world,i don't think you will try to make Thimble Reed in any normal play through.sleet wheat also a bit hard to make until you very late game where water became less important.
thus the most common plants you going to grow is Bristle Blossom with farm station....that took a dupe put the fertilzer in farm station and change into micro fertilizer and apply farmer touch for each Bristle every single cycle.
the huge dupe time could better spend to dig/build more ,finding more water/geyser.farm station become very profitable if you go something like 25 dupe (water start to become a problem).if you play with something like 10-15 dupe(i think a lot of player do) the extra saving of resource is not that useful due to dupe time problem.....
If they buff the farm station or greenhouse quite a bit I would agree that fertilizer 3 ton is good.Right now :3 ton fert?wtf how i gonna find the time to spent to use up all those fert other then feed it to hatch/heat sink etc?(buff the farm station Farmer touch last 3 day cost 3 time as much fert? let auto army to apply farmer touch?remove the farm station and apply the fertilizer directly ....remove green house ,let dupe apply farmer touch everywhere(mark the farm tile you need farmer touch etc)
Overall I feel the time cost is too high.there are far better choice then utilize fertilizer.

1 hour ago, cpy said:

Can we get wolframite planet/tungsten volcano? Or welfare pod drop?

you can get tungsten if you melt insulation(I trying to do that in the last 200 cycle lol) tips :don't do it in space...it melt every drywall hahhaa