ONI lover Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 I am a big ole noob at this game, but love it to bits. Gas and fluid priorities killed one of my bases, so I made myself a cheat sheet, when i get confused I can check it. Thought I'd share in case anyone else doesn't get it. Example, my bathroom loop i use 'D' leaving the lavatory with '4' going into the water sieve and '5' going to my pincha farm. Or i would use 'A' out of my SPOM with '1' and '2' going to vents either side of my base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idkhmmm100 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 I refer to each of these bridge layouts as "spliter", "filler","overflow" and "mixer" makes it a lot easier to remember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONI lover Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 oooh i like that, i see exactly what you mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beowulf2010 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 2 hours ago, idkhmmm100 said: I refer to each of these bridge layouts as "spliter", "filler","overflow" and "mixer" makes it a lot easier to remember Note: For those who don't use splitters very often, or at all, splitters can go up to 4 ways. I feed my 8 exosuit docks by having a 2 way splitter feed a pair of 4 way splitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biopon Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I'm not sure what purpose the bridges serve in A and E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitroturtle Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, biopon said: I'm not sure what purpose the bridges serve in A and E. "A" gives an even split to the flow. If one path is blocked, the secondary (and third and fourth if used) will still get full flow. "E" is an alternating merge, basically the opposite of "A" In the screenshot, it can be seen that it also gives the packets a chance to fill up on the alternating gas inputs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chemie Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 also storage tanks and even showers are just bridges with internal storage. you can pipe them to exploit the same prioritization of flow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biopon Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Thanks 2 minutes ago, chemie said: also storage tanks and even showers are just bridges with internal storage. you can pipe them to exploit the same prioritization of flow Bridges also have 1 packet of storage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chemie Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 2 hours ago, biopon said: Thanks Bridges also have 1 packet of storage. really? because if you deconstruct a bridge no liquid spiils.. is it deleted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glassyfo Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, chemie said: really? because if you deconstruct a bridge no liquid spiils.. is it deleted? He's wrong. Bridges have no storage. They teleport packets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chemie Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 1 minute ago, bleeter6 said: He's wrong. Bridges have no storage. They teleport packets. that's what I thought although the pipe sections on inlet and outlet might lead to confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONI lover Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 18 hours ago, beowulf2010 said: Note: For those who don't use splitters very often, or at all, splitters can go up to 4 ways. I feed my 8 exosuit docks by having a 2 way splitter feed a pair of 4 way splitters. i pictured this to be bulky, but when i tried it it fits neatly into a 8 by 4 space, thank you beowulf2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beowulf2010 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 7 minutes ago, ONI lover said: i pictured this to be bulky, but when i tried it it fits neatly into a 8 by 4 space, thank you beowulf2010 Yeah, it can be hidden almost completely behind the docks if you want. If you use a 3 high room or crown molding, it's almost invisible. This being said, I usually build it in a "utility room" below the entrance room. Not really sure why but it's what I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONI lover Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 23 hours ago, idkhmmm100 said: I refer to each of these bridge layouts as "spliter", "filler","overflow" and "mixer" makes it a lot easier to remember updated. at least i think that is what you mean lol 1 hour ago, beowulf2010 said: Yeah, it can be hidden almost completely behind the docks if you want. If you use a 3 high room or crown molding, it's almost invisible. This being said, I usually build it in a "utility room" below the entrance room. Not really sure why but it's what I do. i am using 10 suits in my current base so i had to try an upgrade and for 16 suits it took 5 tiles high, so the usual 4 high room and the intake pipe in the ceiling. and of course the crown molding for deco value lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Man Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Technically, the bridges in A and F are completely redundant, and you should get exactly the same split/merge behavior if you take them out. I was going to write a post on this topic, but since you already started one, I'll make a few comments here. The key to understand is that this behavior is not about *bridges*. It's about *sources* and *sinks*. The green outlet box is a "source", and the white inlet box is a "sink". And *all* sources and sinks exhibit this behavior, whether they are on a bridge, a shutoff, a refinery, a pump, etc. That's the point @chemie was making. More importantly, the interesting behavior does not happen when a source or sink occur in a single isolated segment. But, for completeness, I'll cover all the cases: Source, no sink: nothing happens. Packets just sit in the pipe because they don't know where to go. Very useful if you need to stop a "bad" packet from damaging some equipment. Most folks have "deconstruct" on a higher priority than "plumbing", so deleting a pipe segment will usually happen faster than clearing out the bad packet on the fly. And sometimes you need to stop the flow just to get at the bad packet. Sink, no source: same as 1. Source connected to sink on isolated pipe segment: the trivial case. Packets flow from source to sink at 1 m/s, if present. One source, two sinks: fair split. This is the A case above, but works the same with or without the bridge. Packets are switched between each sink in a "fair" alternation, regardless of flow rate. That is, even if the flow is sporadic, each packet will alternate between top and bottom, which is equivalent to the split pipe "remembering" which output it sent the last packet on, no matter how long ago. In each case, the entire packet only goes down one branch or the other. The split never divides a packet and sends half down both sides. Two sources, one sink: fair merge. This is the E/F case above, and works the same with or without the bridge. Packets are "fairly" alternated onto the sink line, conversely to 4 above. If the sources send different elements, then the packets are always forced to alternate. *However*, if they are sending the same element, then the flows can merge completely, with no blocking in any segment, as long as there is sufficient pipe capacity. For instance, if you have two pumps sending 500 g/s of O2 into a merged line, they will merge "cleanly" into a single 1000 g/s stream to the sink, with no blocking. If you have two lines sending 10 kg/s of H2O into a merged line, they will alternate, because even though both sources are H2O, the sink line can still only handle 10 kg/s. You can confirm by checking the output temps, if the inputs are different. Also, the animation shows this behavior clearly. The average flow velocity of the source lines will be 0.5 m/s. If you have two lines sending 750 g/s of H2 into a merged line, they will do a "partial merge" where one source will get to send a whole packet, and the other will get to "fill" the packet with 250 g/s, then they will swap. Every 3rd merge, both packets will merge cleanly, and the source lines will have an average flow velocity of 0.75 m/s. Pipe passes a sink: biased split. This is D above, and works exactly the same if you replace the bridge with a shut-off, valve, reservoir, etc. Packets will enter the sink if they can, and continue on the pipe if they cannot. Since the bridge is a static building, the only time its sink cannot accept a packet is if the downstream pipe is blocked. This will cause packets to overflow onto the input pipe. If a reservoir is full, it will stop accepting packets, causing overflow on the input. If a shut-off is disabled, it will stop accepting packets...you get the idea. Pipe passes a source: biased merge. This is B/C above. Packets will exit the source if they can, and block if they cannot. They can "exit the source" if the pipe section connected to the source is empty or has a partial packet of the same element. Just like pure pipe-based merges, a source can "top up" the pipe flow passing by it. Unlike pipe-based merges, the merging is *not* "fair". The pipe always gets precedence over the source. Any source can push packets through an "orphaned" pipe (one that has lost its source), but the bridge is one of the most popular sources for draining a pipe section, because it's fairly cheap to build. However, building a Carbon Skimmer works just as well. Note that nothing needs to be connected to the sink side of such buildings in order for the source side to have its "pushing" effect. Just the presence of the source is sufficient. In summary, a packet *always* needs to "see" both a source and a sink somewhere on its line to move. Now, in order to understand some funky behavior, you need to know one more rule: A packet will flow towards the nearest "available" sink. A sink is "available" if it can accept a packet. This rule is almost always the reason you see a packet "bouncing" inside a pipe. For instance, if you have a stream of reservoirs with a single input line going through their sinks, a packet will normally go into the first reservoir until it is full. Then, it will flow into the second until it is full, etc. However, if you start draining packets from the first reservoir, then a packet that has made it past the first and is on its way to the second will decide that it should turn around instead. Thus, if you want uninterrupted input flow, you need to always drain from the *last* reservoir *first* (making them a LIFO buffer, or stack). Another common scenario is where a bridge or shut-off input has an overflow bypass. Without another bridge to prevent backflow, it is possible for packets to bypass the bridge or shut-off, and then turn around and go back because the shut-off opened up or the bridge became unblocked. In most scenarios, it is possible to solve "bouncing" by forcing a flow direction with a bridge (note that a bridge is not at all magical with direction...it just takes advantage of the fact that packets can only go *into* a sink, and *out of* a source). P.S. @beowulf2010 brings up the important point that merges and splits can go 2, 3, or 4 ways. And, as he observes, a 4-way merge/split is only possible with a bridge or other building that gives access to all 4 sides of the source/sink (like a reservoir, but not a valve, unless the goal is to also bypass the valve, which is pretty useless). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beowulf2010 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Lawnmower Man said: Technically, the bridges in A and F are completely redundant, and you should get exactly the same split/merge behavior if you take them out. I haven't played around with merging enough to comment on F, but removing the bridge from A results in loosing 2 features (one important, one just nice) of a bridge split. 1) Important: A bridge split will skip a full pipe's turn and put the packet into the next pipe immediately. If you remove the bridge, all 2-3 output pipes get their turn even if full resulting in every other/third packets on flowing pipes 100% of the time. A 4 way bridge split will send 100% of packets the flowing direction when the other 3 pipes are full. 2) Nice: You can't do a 4 way split without a bridge. Sure, you can fake it with a binary tree split (takes a similar amount of room) but you can't do a true 4 way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Man Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 2 hours ago, beowulf2010 said: [...] 1) Important: A bridge split will skip a full pipe's turn and put the packet into the next pipe immediately. If you remove the bridge, all 2-3 output pipes get their turn even if full resulting in every other/third packets on flowing pipes 100% of the time. A 4 way bridge split will send 100% of packets the flowing direction when the other 3 pipes are full. 2) Nice: You can't do a 4 way split without a bridge. Sure, you can fake it with a binary tree split (takes a similar amount of room) but you can't do a true 4 way. Sorry, but I just observed behavior contrary to 1). If one branch is full on a plain pipe split, I observe that the other branch is taken with no delay. When you see the turns being taken by both branches, I assert it is because the pipe is just "mostly blocked" and clears up enough to trick the pipe engine into sending a packet down a branch, but then some other packet takes a spot downstream, and it becomes blocked again. If you can construct a scenario with a plain pipe branch where one branch is hard-blocked (like shutoff/valve) and you get less than full 1 m/s flow on the other branch, then I will recant. For 2), thanks for bringing that up. I forgot to mention that you can do more than 2:1 and 1:2 merge/split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 13 hours ago, Lawnmower Man said: and F are completely redundant F isn't redundant, it stops any backlog from preventing the gases from alternating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigjw Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 5 hours ago, Yunru said: F isn't redundant, it stops any backlog from preventing the gases from alternating. I'm unsure what you mean by this and I've read it a few times to be certain. Both A & F; If you remove the junction and replace with pipe segments, the effect is the same. I think it's there for completeness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitroturtle Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Craigjw said: I'm unsure what you mean by this and I've read it a few times to be certain. Both A & F; If you remove the junction and replace with pipe segments, the effect is the same. I think it's there for completeness. I think you might be right about F, but there's definitely a difference with A, specifically when one line is backed up. Without the bridge, the pipe that's not blocked will receive packets at half the rate. With the bridge, full flow will be maintained. Try it in game and the difference will be obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Craigjw said: I'm unsure what you mean by this and I've read it a few times to be certain. Both A & F; If you remove the junction and replace with pipe segments, the effect is the same. I think it's there for completeness. It's only if you have inconsistent flow rates. Say E only operates half the time. Without a bridge, if the line backs up, only F will flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigjw Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Thank you for clarifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Man Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 8 hours ago, Yunru said: F isn't redundant, it stops any backlog from preventing the gases from alternating. F does no such thing. There are two sources on the input side of the bridge, so even if the vent is overpressured, packets will never flow backwards towards a pump. If you had a combination of sources and sinks on the input side, then directionality becomes essential. But notice that this is handled in the "go towards closest sink" rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Lawnmower Man said: F does no such thing. There are two sources on the input side of the bridge, so even if the vent is overpressured, packets will never flow backwards towards a pump. If you had a combination of sources and sinks on the input side, then directionality becomes essential. But notice that this is handled in the "go towards closest sink" rule. Ummm... I never mentioned backflow??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Man Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Just now, Yunru said: Ummm... I never mentioned backflow??? Ok, then you'll have to explain your scenario in a little more detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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