What to do about heat

[Kabrute]

Delete it
 

Spoiler

What comes from the sieve is always 40c, 2 tuners later you have a 12c constant, feed that to your bathrooms it becomes 15c avg pwater (from sitting in the bathroom), run that through the radiator to cool the fluid tank for your aquatuners.  Before valve outbound pwater at 10kg would raise to 29c avg, now by splitting it to 5kg with valve, 36c.  More heat extracted and 5kg is what the sieve processes anyway.  Tuners are made of iron, powered by a single hydrogen gene it is prone to brown outs during peak usage, like first thing in the morning XD 

 

[Mach26]

I do not get it  What are we cooling here? You dumping the heat to polluted water first right? Let's say polluted water become 90c. and sieve output is fixed is well known, but why we run the water through aquatuners after the sieve? 

[neoazureus]

23 minutes ago, Mach26 said:

I do not get it  What are we cooling here? You dumping the heat to polluted water first right? Let's say polluted water become 90c. and sieve output is fixed is well know, but why we run the water through aquatuners after the sieve? 

Because it is better to use water at 12 °C and get polluted water at the same temperature, than to use water at 40 °C and get polluted water at 40 °C, the problem is that the conversion: water --> polluted water creates a lot of additional heat, you reduce the amount of heat using colder water.

[Kabrute]

after that, any heat that the p-water soaks up will be deleted once it gets back to the sieve

[neoazureus]

14 minutes ago, Kabrute said:

after that, any heat that the p-water soaks up will be deleted once it gets back to the sieve

An additional and maybe irrelevant point, it is more efficient to pass polluted water through the aquaturner, instead of water. The aquaturner always cools 14 °C using 1200W of power, regardless of how much heat it moves, so using the liquid with a higher specific heat capacity is the best way to take advantage of the aquaturner.

I use 4 aquaturners to cool polluted water and I distribute it with radiant pipes to cool other things, and I pass polluted water at 70°C through Fertilizer Synthesizer or water sieve

[Mach26]

I see, thanks. I am not a fan of aquatuners, cost-benefit really does not work for me. I am a simple man, using these:

Spoiler

If I dump heat to polluted water, I send it to fertilizer. What is your model's advantages/disadvantages from that method? I'd appreciate if you have time to explain.

 

[Kabrute]

1) my model does not require producing excess pwater at a constant, 2) instant and easy climate control and buffering against the heat death caused by initial attempts at plumbing.  3) is capable of deleting 80% as much heat as a fert synth system while losing less than 15% of the water used in those same systems, roughly.  4) mobile and buildable most anywhere and flexible, can use most any materials to make it and, later, modify into a steam boiler, etc.   and lastly, as to efficiency, it is more efficient to cool the water with pwater than to try to cool the pwater with water, to be perfectly honest, and that is how this system deletes heat ultimately, by weighing the water against the pwater directly, the pwater wins and the system creates cool.  I'm seeing about 1.4c per cycle average temp drop in my base.  I built with 40c igneous and its already under 36c after just a couple cycles of running.

Both the garden and bathrooms were built with hotrock, but a nice little plumbing loop is letting me drive the temps down over time there.

[Kabrute]

Basically I simulated someones base dying from heat death by building everything out of 40c material then using the above setup to soak the heat.  approx 10 cycles to get it below 30c and have crops again....  Not performed in sealed environment but honestly what else is gonna delete THAT much heat? the plants drinking water are deleting the heat the water absorbs in their area.

the schema in the upper left shows the "hidden" segment of piping.  This creates constant flow allowing the water the plants don't drink to pull heat from the air, topping it up with cold at this junction here before dropping back down to the plants so that they don't pull too much heat.

[Carnis]

Kabrute: where is The cold water for The plants coming from?

[Kabrute]

the very first post is the source, all clean water comes from the sieve, goes through 2 aquatuners, then heads to the garden, refilling the bathrooms on the way.

[Soulwind]

I run something very similar.  I only run one tuner and I cycle the cool water throughout the whole living area in granite pipes hidden behind granite paintings then through the berry farm and the toilets and finally dumping back into the water tank.  Probably takes longer to cool things down, but once the tank reserve cools then the tuner doesn't even run very often. 

[Kabrute]

40 cycles later concept proven.  Base is chillin.

Spaceprison.sav

[0xFADE]

I do love heating up polluted water with aqua tuners but I'd rather turn it in to steam (which also causes some heat removal) and get dirt out of the exchange as well.  There are still other places you can send that hot water to be removed.

[Arash70]

Very interesting, replace toilets with a carbon dioxide room + carbon skimmer and you'll have even more cooling

[Kabrute]

Spaceprison.sav

[Kabrute]

the cooling factor associated with this allows me to run a spom IN my base.

water in 22c, o2 out 30c

[clickrush]

Basically what you're saying is that the toilet water of your dupes soaks up enough heat via radiant pipes on your auqatuners to cool your base, which you can delete with a water sieve.

I personally set myself the restriction to not feed germ water into my toilets. It just doesn't feel right even though it's viable, so I'am using a water boiler instead of a sieve, which has a heat net loss as well. Added bonus is that it doesn't require duplicant interaction, but it obviously uses up way more power.

By the way. I've tried to test this a while ago but I don't fully trust/understand my results. Boiling polluted water into clean water should in theory destroy heat, because water has a lower heat capacity (-1/3) and doesn't come out hotter (heat not retained). In practice it seems at least true that the steam isn't hotter and it results in some net cooling. But in my tests (they may have been flawed) I couldn't get the full heat -1/3 heat deletion, but it almost seemed like the resulting steam is just ~10K cooler (with initial polluted water input) regardless of mass. Does anyone have tested this or know the exact mechanism at play here?

[Kabrute]

basically, yes, that little cross over produces enough cold water to cool my base but its a kind of climate control that can't be beat because it always stops at 12c, is automation free(except power, always automate power), and produces my food and air.  the math works out that the resulting materials are energy wise at lower states with each conversion, in theory if you were boiling water by running the water you had converted from steam through an aquatuner the energy from the "hot water" would be less heat than the heat pwater would soak up driving towards steam state.  The biggest problem I had with this system was drip cooling before.  Since then I haven't tried a micro steamer but this is the basic concept.

either to the side like this, radiant pipe to bring in "cold" pwater for steaming off, will pick up heat from steam over cold condenser area, pump just sends water to tuners. 

[Greep]

1 hour ago, clickrush said:

Basically what you're saying is that the toilet water of your dupes soaks up enough heat via radiant pipes on your auqatuners to cool your base, which you can delete with a water sieve.

I personally set myself the restriction to not feed germ water into my toilets. It just doesn't feel right even though it's viable, so I'am using a water boiler instead of a sieve, which has a heat net loss as well. Added bonus is that it doesn't require duplicant interaction, but it obviously uses up way more power.

By the way. I've tried to test this a while ago but I don't fully trust/understand my results. Boiling polluted water into clean water should in theory destroy heat, because water has a lower heat capacity (-1/3) and doesn't come out hotter (heat not retained). In practice it seems at least true that the steam isn't hotter and it results in some net cooling. But in my tests (they may have been flawed) I couldn't get the full heat -1/3 heat deletion, but it almost seemed like the resulting steam is just ~10K cooler (with initial polluted water input) regardless of mass. Does anyone have tested this or know the exact mechanism at play here?

I haven't tried this kind of cooler, but I believe the theory is heat is deleted even if the steam comes out the same temp if done via an aquatuner radiator.  E.g.

Say 50kg water starts at 30C and becomes polluted through a carbon skimmer.  6*~90 *(50,000) joules to boil this polluted water, and this is transferred to your environment as negative heat.  Lets say that negative heat was used on an equal mass of water (say the steam produced here).  This will cool that water by not 90 degrees but 90* (6/4.1) degrees, or a net heat loss.  So somehow 50kg of water becomes tainted and heated and ends up having a net cooling effect of negative heat on water.

[clickrush]

1 minute ago, Greep said:

I haven't tried this kind of heater, but I believe the theory is heat is deleted even if the steam comes out the same temp if done via an aquatuner radiator.  E.g.

Say 50kg water starts at 30C and becomes polluted through a carbon skimmer.  6*~90 *(50,000) joules to boil this polluted water, and this is transferred to your environment as negative heat.  Lets say that heat was used on an equal mass of water.  This will cool that water by not 90 degrees but 90* (6/4.1) degrees, or a net heat loss.  So somehow 50kg of water becomes tainted and heated and ends up having a net cooling effect of negative heat on water.

Yes I know that is the theory, but in my tests I didn't get the full 6/4 effect. There is heat loss but not quite as much as I expected. Which is fine, because the heat loss is already huge.

[Greep]

Oh you're directly cooling the steam itself with the radiator, and that is not getting cooled correctly.  Yeah I'm not sure there then :/

[clickrush]

Holy cow @Kabrute I just started a new base and I'am using this to process some of the PH2O puddles for my initial water tank. And it is really, really powerful. Iam using a single aquatuner with a feedback loop though, as I'am still early in the game.

Again a great example of how powerful radiant pipes are.

[Kabrute]

i urge caution with the feedback loop methods, hence why I chose the 2 tuner route, I did have to install a dedicated coal gene to supplement the hydrogen generator and it still "brown outs" if I drain my water line but it feeds  ~30 plants at a constant PLUS running an electrolizer system.  My "hot tank" never gets more than about 22c above the incoming pwater temp.  But again I'm using 15 radiant pipe joints and either standing packets(which absorb all heat any way) or 3.628kg flow rate packet size (provides 30c of absorption at 32c difference at a constant flow).  In order to "delete" heat a minimum of 20c must be put into the pwater for ever 28c take from the clean water.  This gives ~12% "over unity" in our hot tanks.  The hotter the tank gets the more energy is transferred so that end becomes a legit self regulating system.  By the numbers if the tank ran hotter the pwater would just delete that much more heat.  As long as we feed it less than 70c pwater it should, in theory, never "break down" only brown out power during cycling up or if you overdraw.

[netwizard2]

Here's another huge exploit I found. Tiles always have 15-45°C temperature when constructed.

If you have Sandstone at -200°C , the tile constructed from it will be 15°C.

If you have 30°C Sandstone, the tile will have 30°C.

If Sandstone was 700°C, the tile will be 45°C.

Build a tile near hot water, wait until it absorbs heat (build tempshift plate from any refined metal or diamond adjacent to them both to speed up the process), tile will get to 90°C, deconstruct it, you will get 100 kg Sandstone  at 90°C as a result. Pick that Sandstone again and build a tile, it will be 45°C. 55°C were deleted. Construct-deconstruct repeatedly until your water cools down to 45°C.

Dirt, Sandstone and Granite have the highest Specific Heat Capacity of all solids (1.48, 0.8 and 0.79 respectively). Ice and Polluted Ice have 2.05 and 3.05, but you cannot use them. Personally I prefer Sandstone due to how slow Farm Tiles are constructed.

The biggest downdise of this method is that it is completely manual. However, this is more time efficient than Water Sieve Carbon Skimmer exploit due to the fact it only processess 10 kg packets at a time and cannot delete more than 60°C (water) or 80°C (p.water).

Tile construct, however, operates with 100 kg at a time and can convert 2700°C (Obsidian melting point) into 45°C in the blink of an eye.

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

11 minutes ago, netwizard2 said:

Here's another huge exploit I found. Tiles always have 15-45°C temperature when constructed.

If you have Sandstone at -200°C , the tile constructed from it will be 15°C.

If you have 30°C Sandstone, the tile will have 30°C.

If Sandstone was 700°C, the tile will be 45°C.

Build a tile near hot water, wait until it absorbs heat (build tempshift plate from any refined metal or diamond adjacent to them both to speed up the process), tile will get to 90°C, deconstruct it, you will get 100 kg Sandstone  at 90°C as a result. Pick that Sandstone again and build a tile, it will be 45°C. 55°C were deleted. Construct-deconstruct repeatedly until your water cools down to 45°C.

Dirt, Sandstone and Granite have the highest Specific Heat Capacity of all solids (1.48, 0.8 and 0.79 respectively). Ice and Polluted Ice have 2.05 and 3.05, but you cannot use them. Personally I prefer Sandstone due to how slow Farm Tiles are constructed.

The biggest downdise of this method is that it is completely manual. However, this is more time efficient than Water Sieve Carbon Skimmer exploit due to the fact it only processess 10 kg packets at a time and cannot delete more than 60°C (water) or 80°C (p.water).

Tile construct, however, operates with 100 kg at a time and can convert 2700°C (Obsidian melting point) into 45°C in the blink of an eye.

Not accurately. Not only apply on tiles, and not always 15~45 C

This construction temperature resetting can apply on every building, and the range depends on what kind of materials you use.

For material which belongs to Liquifiable catalog(eg. snow, ice, Pice), the range is -∞~45C

For material which doesn't belong to Liquifiable catalog, the range is 15C~45C