Is this a good natural gas gens + petrol gens setup?

[jfc]

I'll also make radiant pipes inside with pw from slush geyser to cool everything up, CO2 will go on the left to feed molten slicksters for petroleum for the generators. Also there are 2 more natural gas generators and i was wondering how many natural gas gens can i run with all 3? one of them produces 503g/s the other 2 355/s and 393g/s

 

 

[Carnis]

I doubt you will be able to produce 16kg oil to make 8kg petroleum in the long term.

[riwenna]

Also the numbers 503g/s, 355/s, 393g/s sound like the unadjusted nat gas geyser output. What is their eruption period and active period? Or are they such monsters after you adjust the output rate?

[WanderingKid]

Each Petrogen needs its own pump for atmo, you're at 500 g/s when using them.  You haven't accounted for that in your space.

I have found corralling the PH2O to be more successful in my previous designs, so I don't keep the PWater around for too long.  So I would normally do something more like this:

Slicksters do not make as much petrol as you might think.  A single battery of slicksters only offsets a lot of my petro generators.  They're mostly for waste disposal and food, not power production.

[jfc]

6 minutes ago, riwenna said:

Also the numbers 503g/s, 355/s, 393g/s sound like the unadjusted nat gas geyser output. What is their eruption period and active period? Or are they such monsters after you adjust the output rate?

1 - 393g/s   | Eruption: 349s every 733s  | Active: 65.8 cycles every 115.6 cycles

2 - 355.5/s   | Eruption: 292s every 654s  | Active: 79.2 cycles every 147.1 cycles

3 - 503g/s   | Eruption: 226s every 508s| Active: unkown

2 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

Each Petrogen needs its own pump for atmo, you're at 500 g/s when using them.  You haven't accounted for that in your space.

I have found corralling the PH2O to be more successful in my previous designs, so I don't keep the PWater around for too long.  So I would normally do something more like this:

Slicksters do not make as much petrol as you might think.  A single battery of slicksters only offsets a lot of my petro generators.  They're mostly for waste disposal and food, not power production.

How many gens can i run just from molten slickers then?

[riwenna]

Just now, jfc said:

1 - 393g/s   | Eruption: 349s every 733s  | Active: 65.8 cycles every 115.6 cycles

2 - 355.5/s   | Eruption: 292s every 654s  | Active: 79.2 cycles every 147.1 cycles

3 - 503g/s   | Eruption: 226s every 508s| Active: unkown

So the adjusted numbers are

1 - 393*349/733*65.8/115.6 = 106.5g/s
2 - 355.5*292/654*79.2/147.1 = 85.5g/s
3 - 503*226/508* (1/2 as a guesstimate) ~= 112g/s

From my experience, most active periods are around a factor of 1/2 so you can use it to guesstimate the output of unresearched geysers. If you get more, you're lucky, if you get less... then less so.

With these adjusted values, it turns out you can sustain a bit more than 3 NG Generators constantly. "Constantly" means you need to save the overspill of the NG during the active periods (in a "storage room" with high pressure gas vent usually), to be able to use them during the idle periods.

However, with smart batteries hooked up to your power generation (so NG generators are turned off by automation when batteries are full enough), you should be able to sustain even more than 6NG generators. On my map, I have two NG geysers with adjusted values around or just above 100g/s for both, and I have no problems sustaining 6NG generators.

[WanderingKid]

,Molten slicksters (tamed and happy) consume 20kg/cycle each.  They produce half their mass into petro.  So, per slickster, you're looking at 33.3 g/s of CO2 consumed (about 1.5 NGG's) to ~16.75 g/s of petroleum

To upkeep even a single petroleum generator at 2kg/s, you'd need about... all of them.  Across your screen.  With a FPS of about 4.

[jfc]

6 minutes ago, riwenna said:

So the adjusted numbers are

1 - 393*349/733*65.8/115.6 = 106.5g/s
2 - 355.5*292/654*79.2/147.1 = 85.5g/s
3 - 503*226/508* (1/2 as a guesstimate) ~= 112g/s

With these adjusted values, it turns out you can sustain a bit more than 3 NG Generators constantly. "Constantly" means you need to save the overspill of the NG during the active periods (in a "storage room" with high pressure gas vent usually), to be able to use them during the idle periods.

However, with smart batteries hooked up to your power generation (so NG generators are turned off by automation when batteries are full enough), you should be able to sustain even more than 6NG generators. On my map, I have two NG geysers with adjusted values around or just above 100g/s for both, and I have no problems sustaining 6NG generators.

How many smart batteries should i use? and should i place them before the transformers or after?

[riwenna]

@WanderingKid While it obviously depends on your power usage, I wonder how much less would a PetGen consume on average if hooked to a smart battery. I mean, I can feed 6 NatGen consistently (with some surplus slowly accumulating in my gas storage) with barely 200g/s average geyser output compared to 540g/s they would use if running continuously.

 

[Glassyfo]

Wouldn't the same power consumption mean 4 gens with smart batteries use up just as much as 400? Increased nat gas consumption is offset by more time spent disabled by automation.

[WanderingKid]

@riwenna If you're not using Smart Batteries with your Petrogen you're doing it wrong, so, there's that.  It's really a mass to power delivery.  NG provides 800W for 90g.  Petrogen provides 2000W for 2000g.  For matching values, it's 225 g NG vs. 2000g Petro. 

This is the serious difference of the values of them, and why NG Boiling was such a big thing.

2 minutes ago, bleeter6 said:

Wouldn't the same power consumption mean 4 gens with smart batteries use up just as much as 400? Increased nat gas consumption is offset by more time spent disabled by automation.

Automation switches fast enough that it's close enough to instantaneous.  As long as you have a single smart battery with the settings you want on the logic circuit, 4 or 4000 NG Generators just depends on how much power you need during peak usage.

[Zarquan]

1 hour ago, Carnis said:

I doubt you will be able to produce 16kg oil to make 8kg petroleum in the long term.

Using oil wells only, using 1000 g on an oil well returns only 672.5 g water.  Meaning you lose 352.5 g of water per 3333.33 g of crude oil.  Ignoring slicksters, but there is no way they make up the difference. 

If you burn the crude oil to petroleum, then you get 1245 g water for 1000 g water, meaning you turn a profit on water.

If you boil the petroleum and condense the sour gas, you get 1700 g water for 1000 g, for an even greater profit.  But it is even harder.

None of these take in to account slicksters because I'm too lazy to do the geometric series right now.

[riwenna]

I'm not sure which is better, I play half-empyrically. I try stuff, if I see it not working, I try something different. I do some research beforehand, and then go with a gut feeling.

But, the two options have some of the following consequences:

1/ battery before the transformer
- the battery holds the power storage for your entire grid. In the beginning, when the grid is small, you can probably pull it off with a single smart battery
- the automation build is trivial: a single automation wire goes from the first (and for a long time, only) battery to all the power generators you have (also other types you add to your grid)
- if you ever end up adding more batteries, they will all be in the same circuit, therefore equally as full at all the times, and so you will only ever need to use the original batteries automation output.
- your whole power grid unfortunately has only a singular battery bank of power reserves
- I have a gut feeling the whole network uptime might be a bit higher becouse of less power reserves

2/ battery after transformer
- this is what I do - 1 battery per one power transformer (regular battery at first, smart as soon as I can change)
- the automation is a bit more complicated however. What you want in this case is "if ANY of the batteries in the grid need recharging, turn on the generators", which basically means you need to connect all the automation outputs from all the smart batteries through OR-gates, and the output of the OR-gates gets hooked up to your power generator.
- additionally, you'd want to hook up the output from each smart battery directly to it's own power transformer, so it does not generate heat while the battery is full.
- this network supports a total of more consumers than your net power generation is (not if they are all used constantly). Basically, the battery in every sub-circuit has it's own power bank, when one circuit runs out of power and needs to recharge, the others can still use their batteries.
- this also keeps the heat output of the power transformers of the less used circuits very slow

This is my setup (automation and power grid overlays): you can see every smart battery hooked to it's own transformer by automation, and then or-ed with the rest of the smart batteries output. At the bottom (off the screen), the final output of the automation wire loops back up against the wall (the long unbroken automation line) and goes into all the generators.

The power generators (a mixture of coal, nat gas and hydrogen) is turned on if any of the batteries falls under 25%. Each battery powers one circuit of 2k power max (you can see three circuits in this example, but this power wall stretches all along my base):

 

 

[Glassyfo]

4 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

Using oil wells only, using 1000 g on an oil well returns only 672.5 g.  Meaning you lose 352.5 g of water per 3333.33 g of crude oil.  Ignoring slicksters, but there is no way they make up the difference. 

If you burn the crude oil to petroleum, then you get 1345 g water for 1000 g water, meaning you turn a profit on water.

If you boil the petroleum, you get 1700 g water for 1000 g, for an even greater profit.

None of these take in to account slicksters because I'm to lazy to do the geometric series right now.

Can you post your calculations? I have trouble following what you're saying.

[Zarquan]

12 minutes ago, bleeter6 said:

Can you post your calculations?

 

17 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

Using oil wells only, using 1000 g on an oil well returns only 672.5 g water.  Meaning you lose 352.5 g of water per 3333.33 g of crude oil.  Ignoring slicksters, but there is no way they make up the difference. 

If you burn the crude oil to petroleum, then you get 1345 g water for 1000 g water, meaning you turn a profit on water.

If you boil the petroleum and condense the sour gas, you get 1700 g water for 1000 g, for an even greater profit.  But it is even harder.

None of these take in to account slicksters because I'm too lazy to do the geometric series right now.

oil wells produce 33.3 g/s natural gas and 3333.33 g/s crude oil.

An oil refinery takes that 3333.33 g/s and produces 1666.67 g/s petroleum and 30 g/s natural gas.

Now we burn 63.3 g natural gas and 1666.67 g petroleum.

63.3/90*67.5 = 47.5 g water.

1666.67 / 2000 * 750 = 625 g water.  Add those up, and you get 672.5 g water.

 

When you burn crude oil to petroleum, you still get 33.3 g/s nat gas from oil well and you get 3333.33 g/s petroleum. 

33.3*67.5/90 = 25 g/s

3333.33 * 750 / 2000 = 1250 g/s

These add to 1245 g/s (which I typoed originally.)

 

When you boil the 3333.33 g/s crude oil to sour gas, you get 3333.33 g/s sour gas.  When you condense it, you get 3333.33*0.67 =  2233.33 g/s natural gas.  That is on top of the 33.3 g/s natural gas from oil well, so 2233.6 g/s natural gas.

2233.6 * 67.5/90 = 1700 g/s water.

 

If you want to add in the slicksters, you get more water from the calculations, but you have to do a geometric series and I don't want to do that right now.

[Nitroturtle]

9 hours ago, riwenna said:

1/ battery before the transformer
...

2/ battery after transformer
...

Combine the two options.  That's how my whole grid is setup and it works perfectly.  You use the individual circuit batteries to control the transformers, and the main grid batteries to control the generators.

[goatt]

My experience tells me a natural gas can provide A LOT more power if I never let it OVERPRESSURE. There are many ways to do it. I’m sure you know how.

If you run 10 nat gas gen and they work 1/10 th of a cycle, then it’s equivalent to 1 gen run full time. I think you need to focus on how much energy you use on daily report.

[riwenna]

3 hours ago, Nitroturtle said:

Combine the two options.  That's how my whole grid is setup and it works perfectly.  You use the individual circuit batteries to control the transformers, and the main grid batteries to control the generators.

That sounds very interesting, and much simpler to automate (tho I'm very proud of my automation ) Does that basically cause the individual circuit batteries to charge from the main grid batteries?

What's your ratio? I guess 1 battery per circuit, but then how many main grid batteries per each existing circuit, and for how much total generator output? (even if you don't have a precise guidline, it would be interesting to know at least your current setup ratios)

[tzionut]

In my opinion ( i don't like power transformer) To much heat output for limited benefit. I prefer the generator wired whit a smart battery version better. The disadvantages are: more materials needed for generators, more wire (the space is no problem for me, and i don't use the power station. The advantages. Less heat output, less power lost to heat. 

[Nitroturtle]

5 hours ago, riwenna said:

That sounds very interesting, and much simpler to automate (tho I'm very proud of my automation ) Does that basically cause the individual circuit batteries to charge from the main grid batteries?

What's your ratio? I guess 1 battery per circuit, but then how many main grid batteries per each existing circuit, and for how much total generator output? (even if you don't have a precise guidline, it would be interesting to know at least your current setup ratios)

Yeah, the main grid batteries charge the circuit batteries.  I don't think the ratio matters much, as long as your total usage doesn't exceed your max generation potential.  

I build power transformer buildings throughout my base and connect them all to my main heavy-watt circuit.  Each building supports 8 circuits and I was also including 4 batteries in each unit for the main line.  I use the larger transformers for units that power heavy machinery, as the small transformers can't keep up with their power draw.  But for most of my circuits, the small transformers are sufficient.  A single wheezewort provides more than enough cooling for each unit, enough that I had to add doors and temp sensors to prevent them from becoming extremely cold.  It also leaks a bit of cooling through the joint plates, which helps keep the whole area at a reasonable temperature.

Spoiler

 

I use clock sensors and an AND gate for each circuit, with batteries set to 10-100.  This allows me to disable circuits not currently in use.  I have started building them without the main line batteries, because I've built a massive battery room with an AETN that handles all my solar power.  I think I currently have around 150 batteries total on the main line.  When the main line drops below 30%, automation disconnects about 80% of the batteries and then uses my non-solar power sources to keep the batteries between 10-25% until solar generation comes back to bring the batteries to full.  My total solar gen is around 11kW and the rest of my generators are around 10-15kW depending on if they are boosted or not.  Basically, I have unlimited power at this point and this setup allows everything to run with no overloads ever.

Spoiler

Obviously, this is a very late game base, but this same system works fine for early game.  I have another save I've been playing where I have only 2 hydrogen generators powering a single transformer block, using the same pattern shown here, and it's working perfectly.

[psusi]

9 hours ago, Nitroturtle said:

Combine the two options.  That's how my whole grid is setup and it works perfectly.  You use the individual circuit batteries to control the transformers, and the main grid batteries to control the generators.

Then every time the transformer is switched on/off, you lose 1000J of energy.  Better to keep one or two batteries on the heavy watt side.  You use less batteries, and don't waste power toggling the transformers.

 

[Nitroturtle]

4 minutes ago, psusi said:

Then every time the transformer is switched on/off, you lose 1000J of energy.  Better to keep one or two batteries on the heavy watt side.  You use less batteries, and don't waste power toggling the transformers.

 

Yeah it doesn't work that way anymore.  I believe it was changed when they added the small power transformers.

[psusi]

1 hour ago, Nitroturtle said:

Yeah it doesn't work that way anymore.  I believe it was changed when they added the small power transformers.

Even if they did, you still end up using more batteries and causing more heat and more runoff.  And the transformers still say they have an internal buffer of 1000J... I haven't looked to see if they stay full when you switch them off.

 

[riwenna]

52 minutes ago, Nitroturtle said:

...

I have started building them without the main line batteries, because I've built a massive battery room with an AETN that handles all my solar power.  I think I currently have around 150 batteries total on the main line.  

...

 My total solar gen is around 11kW and the rest of my generators are around 10-15kW depending on if they are boosted or not. 

...

This seems like a lot of batteries... I mean, my power generators produce around 12kW boosted, I never run out of power or overload any circuits, and I only have 1 smart battery per circuit... amounting to total of ... 8 or 10 in my base? Probably less. They're set to turn on the generators and their respective transformer when they hit 25%, and they recharge very quickly.

Every smart battery/transformer has a flower pot so I can plant a weezwort, but some of them were so little used that some area around the power main hit -60*C, and I had to take away most of the worts since having a wort at every 2 or 3 transformer/battery pair was plenty.

[Nitroturtle]

13 minutes ago, psusi said:

Even if they did, you still end up using more batteries and causing more heat and more runoff.  And the transformers still say they have an internal buffer of 1000J... I haven't looked to see if they stay full when you switch them off.

 

My smaller base with only a single transformer room only has two batteries on the high side.  As for the late game base, a single WW is plenty to cool the rooms, with or without batteries on the high side.  In fact, the large battery room with 100+ batteries is cooled by a single AETN with cooling to spare.  Not to mention, the late game base has unlimited power at this point.  I've actually tried to build power hungry systems just to use it all.  Even with all of the batteries on the high side, I'm still producing excess power that I cannot store from the solar panels.  I'm also sitting at 80-90 tons of both gold and iron, so the materials aren't an issue.  Granted, this is all specific to the base I posted above.  I do agree that for smaller power systems, fewer batteries on the high side is more efficient.

7 minutes ago, riwenna said:

This seems like a lot of batteries... I mean, my power generators produce around 12kW boosted, I never run out of power or overload any circuits, and I only have 1 smart battery per circuit... amounting to total of ... 8 or 10 in my base? Probably less. They're set to turn on the generators and their respective transformer when they hit 25%, and they recharge very quickly.

Every smart battery/transformer has a flower pot so I can plant a weezwort, but some of them were so little used that some area around the power main hit -60*C, and I had to take away most of the worts since having a wort at every 2 or 3 transformer/battery pair was plenty.

I'm overproducing even with all of those batteries.  Their purpose is to hold me through night/meteor showers.  During the calm period, with no meteor showers, the entire battery bank stays full throughout the day.