Airlock for AETN

[abud]

As far as I know, there is airlock that prevent gas exchange and other one is to prevent temperature exchange. I have AETN which also works as my hydrogen main storage. What I want to do here is to prevent gas exchange. Water lock using water is not possible because it will freezing instantly, so I put some oil in there. Hey, it's nice to have a bit colder oil, then I started using some of them as coolant medium. Since I want cold oil, probably it is better to put temp plates in there. You might know what happen next. So, how I can archive this?
 

Spoiler

 

 

ps: I'm new player since ranch mark I so there is still many things that I don't know about. I was avoiding spoiler until I feel comfortable with my game, which happened about a week ago. Browsing forum, reddit and youtube prove me that all my experiments still very shallow compared to many of you veterans. Please forgive me for my english because it is not my natural language.

[avc15]

to avoid the freezing liquid lock problem

just make transit tubes and seal the entire chamber with Hydrogen in it.

Make your transit crossings go from the people space, into a vacuum bottle, then finally into the hydrogen filled cold space. So that you reduce the amount of heat that will transfer out through your tubes.

[PhailRaptor]

One option for your Oil problem is to create a Metal Tile/Airlock/Metal Tile thermal exchanger between the AETN room and the Oil tank.  You use a Temperature Sensor in the Oil, set it to a temperature at least 5 C above it's freezing point.  Run the Automation Wire from that Sensor through the ports on all the Doors.

This works due to a quirk of Doors.  If a Door is opened when gases cannot flow into the space, it creates a Vacuum.  Vacuum cannot transfer thermal energy in ONI, meaning you can use a Door to create a perfect thermal barrier.  So if you have a row of Doors sandwiched between 2 rows of Metal Tiles, you can control whether thermal energy is transferred from one side or not by opening and closing the doors.

So in this case, you'd want the Thermal Sensor to trigger just a bit above the freezing point of the Oil, opening the Doors to stop the flow of thermal energy.  When the temperature rises again, it will shut down the Thermal Sensor, closing the doors again and allowing thermal transfer to continue.

[abud]

1 hour ago, avc15 said:

to avoid the freezing liquid lock problem

just make transit tubes and seal the entire chamber with Hydrogen in it.

Make your transit crossings go from the people space, into a vacuum bottle, then finally into the hydrogen filled cold space. So that you reduce the amount of heat that will transfer out through your tubes.

I just try tubes briefly on ranch mark I, and didn't know much about it. But I appreciate your suggestion and I will try explore more about it. I do not have clear picture in my head how this tubes will affect heat transfer. AFAIK they have pretty high thermal conductivity which means many heat loss in that one tile tube intersection. Did I miss something here? But my main concern here to prevent gas transfer and preventing heat transfer is secondary, so this is worth to try. I need to consider that 960W power 

 

52 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

One option for your Oil problem is to create a Metal Tile/Airlock/Metal Tile thermal exchanger between the AETN room and the Oil tank.  You use a Temperature Sensor in the Oil, set it to a temperature at least 5 C above it's freezing point.  Run the Automation Wire from that Sensor through the ports on all the Doors.

This works due to a quirk of Doors.  If a Door is opened when gases cannot flow into the space, it creates a Vacuum.  Vacuum cannot transfer thermal energy in ONI, meaning you can use a Door to create a perfect thermal barrier.  So if you have a row of Doors sandwiched between 2 rows of Metal Tiles, you can control whether thermal energy is transferred from one side or not by opening and closing the doors.

So in this case, you'd want the Thermal Sensor to trigger just a bit above the freezing point of the Oil, opening the Doors to stop the flow of thermal energy.  When the temperature rises again, it will shut down the Thermal Sensor, closing the doors again and allowing thermal transfer to continue.

 

This is what I looking for, at least  will solve freezing problem. I was using this method on magma steam turbine to limit heat, I should just using similar to limit cold. Next question using this method is ... how dupes will pass through into chamber without any gas transfer? Tubes?

Maybe it is better to just seal it forever? Problem is, I like to experiment things in this game. I have some sealed chamber in my current world, and every time I need to modify I make simple waterlock. If done fast enough I might be able to modify and clear it before liquid in waterlock freezing.

Thanks for enlightening me about vacuum barrier.

[abud]

I just tried common simple waterlock, Basic idea is to make that left space vacuum so naphtha in there not going to freeze. Problem is, every time door opened there is 15Kg hydrogen in those tiles, total 30Kg to pump out. Small gas pump capacity is 50g/s, will need at least 600s to pump out. That is one whole cycle Lets scrap this idea, and probably modify it using door sequence to make vacuum.

[PhailRaptor]

While it is not a space efficient solution, you can make a double water lock with Naptha, Oil, or Petro, then establish a Vacuum between them.

[abud]

58 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

While it is not a space efficient solution, you can make a double water lock with Naptha, Oil, or Petro, then establish a Vacuum between them.

I read about it earlier in this topic by @Neotuck

 

If I use direct contact with hydrogen in chamber, the closer one will freezing eventually... Or not?

[PhailRaptor]

Hm.  You're right, if you leave the AETN on continuously it is rather likely to freeze Oil/Petro/Naptha.  I didn't realize their freezing points were so "high".

The other option is a 3 door Airlock, using the same idea as the Door-Wall.  Place 3 doors together in a row, and automate the middle one to open and create a vacuum.

On 4/21/2018 at 9:29 PM, Neotuck said:

I don't wire the 2 outer doors so there is always a path for the dupe to cross

Set the buffer to 11 seconds and the filter to 10 seconds.  

Every time a dupe runs over the switch the door will close after 10 seconds and re open 1 second later creating a vacuum 

[abud]

1 hour ago, PhailRaptor said:

Hm.  You're right, if you leave the AETN on continuously it is rather likely to freeze Oil/Petro/Naptha.  I didn't realize their freezing points were so "high".

The other option is a 3 door Airlock, using the same idea as the Door-Wall.  Place 3 doors together in a row, and automate the middle one to open and create a vacuum.

This is what I thought, create vacuum using doors rather than that mini gas pump in previous post.

[landromat]

1 hour ago, PhailRaptor said:

Hm.  You're right, if you leave the AETN on continuously it is rather likely to freeze Oil/Petro/Naptha.  I didn't realize their freezing points were so "high".

The other option is a 3 door Airlock, using the same idea as the Door-Wall.  Place 3 doors together in a row, and automate the middle one to open and create a vacuum.

This is much easier
 

[abud]

5 minutes ago, landromat said:

This is much easier
 

Simple, yet sufficient. Thanks for the hint.

[0xFADE]

I've just been filling them with hydrogen and letting them run.  Piping something through them that I want to heat transfer.  Once it gets going I have not really had any reason to go back in.

I've only been using them for base radiator cooling.  Though even if I was going to have them get in the high negatives i'd radiate hydrogen through it to some other site.

[Alex_D]

 

14 minutes ago, landromat said:

This is much easier
 

The simplified version is even simpler:

Spoiler

If the temperature difference is not too much, put the automation entirely on the cold side, as shown. But if the temperature is too hot, put the automation tile, wires and filter gate entirely on the hot side, so when the door is opened, the escaping hot air doesn't keep on heating the outside door. Also leave one tile in front of the weight plate so the dupe can step on it before opening the door.

[0xFADE]

I haven't seen pressure plates put right under doors yet.  Though doesn't that lock it right when the door opens?  I guess there is still enough time to get in.

I am still a fan of dripping the metal in to some liquid to cool it down and convey it out as well as collecting the heat for other things but it does take a long time to get enough infrastructure to support it.

[landromat]

1 hour ago, 0xFADE said:

doesn't that lock it right when the door opens?

that's why buffer gate is there

[abud]

5 hours ago, 0xFADE said:

I've just been filling them with hydrogen and letting them run.  Piping something through them that I want to heat transfer.  Once it gets going I have not really had any reason to go back in.

 

I've only been using them for base radiator cooling.  Though even if I was going to have them get in the high negatives i'd radiate hydrogen through it to some other site.

I don't see any other way to get hydrogen in my current map except that one electrolyzer room (placed right on top of AETN), so I decided to contain them and just use overflow to my hydrogen generator. I was afraid of lack of hydrogen when I need them, for example experiment to make new cooling systems. I'm not fans of sandbox mode, except for making screenshot to explain things. I feel those experiments along with entire construct deconstruct process is my primary fun source in this game. So yeah, I need at least this one hydrogen storage.

But since it is over pressure now, maybe I need to reconsider things and let small amount hydrogen slip and floating around.

 

4 hours ago, Alex_D said:

 

The simplified version is even simpler:

  Reveal hidden contents

If the temperature difference is not too much, put the automation entirely on the cold side, as shown. But if the temperature is too hot, put the automation tile, wires and filter gate entirely on the hot side, so when the door is opened, the escaping hot air doesn't keep on heating the outside door. Also leave one tile in front of the weight plate so the dupe can step on it before opening the door.

Neat. But this kind of doors will break second dupe order if there is more than one going around? Not important in this particular AETN case, just curious. Thanks for sharing your discoveries.

 

How many vents and volcano available on each map? Probably I just miss them... I want to play with those volcanoes, never play with one before (probably just me not discover them).

[avc15]

22 hours ago, abud said:

I just try tubes briefly on ranch mark I, and didn't know much about it. But I appreciate your suggestion and I will try explore more about it. I do not have clear picture in my head how this tubes will affect heat transfer. AFAIK they have pretty high thermal conductivity which means many heat loss in that one tile tube intersection. Did I miss something here? But my main concern here to prevent gas transfer and preventing heat transfer is secondary, so this is worth to try. I need to consider that 960W power 

Plastic has very high thermal conductivity but tubes and crossings are entities (ie they transfer heat like buildings, at a small fraction of normal)

It will still transfer some heat, though, this is why you pass the transit tube through a vacuum bottle, so that the heat has just one (very torturous) heat transfer path. 8 long 1 wide tube and crossings in vacuum is a very high thermal resistance, in all very well insulated.

I'll try to post a picture soon, as I'm about to build the cooling plant for my new game.

[abud]

13 hours ago, avc15 said:

I'll try to post a picture soon, as I'm about to build the cooling plant for my new game.

Thanks, I'll wait. much appreciated

 

Talking about door breaking orders, I just tried this method in "not so important" place. I was wonder why people didn't use them

 

In right place is filled by chlorine, and left is hall mixed with various gas (mostly chlorine too). Basic idea is when active water will push all gas in the middle to one side (right side) via door in top. This is works great when gas trapped in the middle is chlorine. But when there is single CO2 in the middle, water couldn't push to the top, just sitting 2000Kg in those 2 mesh tiles. I know this is because one element per tiles, but that much water cannot push few grams of CO2 is a bit annoying. So, people didn't use this because this is doesn't works

[Flydo]

You can also made a vacuum airlock

[abud]

5 hours ago, Flydo said:

You can also made a vacuum airlock

Would you give further information which vacuum airlock you talking about? We already discussed few of them on this thread.

[Flydo]

You just have to put a pump between two door and add a filter to separate gaz

[abud]

Already tried that,and not efficient because huge pressure in there (more about it in previous post)

[avc15]

ok here you go, it's a pretty common design, I didn't come up with it.

 

I used to have some concern that heat would conduct down the transit tube and back out into the cold H2, but it's just not happening. Basically no heat transfers across the 2-long tube connecting between those crossings. I can't explain the mechanics behind it, but it has something to do with the way buildings transfer heat. I'm pretty sure the crossings count as tiles and the tubes count as buildings.

I started with a much larger vacuum chamber and a 10-long tube for testing. I could see very clearly that the tube's segments were NOT drifting towards a temperature gradient, even over 20 cycles or so. I.E., no heat was transferring along the tube.

So this system is all you need. The smallest setup is just a 2x2 chamber with a micro gas pump to vacuum it out.

[abud]

1 hour ago, avc15 said:

I used to have some concern that heat would conduct down the transit tube and back out into the cold H2, but it's just not happening. Basically no heat transfers across the 2-long tube connecting between those crossings. I can't explain the mechanics behind it, but it has something to do with the way buildings transfer heat. I'm pretty sure the crossings count as tiles and the tubes count as buildings.

I started with a much larger vacuum chamber and a 10-long tube for testing. I could see very clearly that the tube's segments were NOT drifting towards a temperature gradient, even over 20 cycles or so. I.E., no heat was transferring along the tube.

So this system is all you need. The smallest setup is just a 2x2 chamber with a micro gas pump to vacuum it out.

Thanks for the pic, I think now I understand what you mean, as long that little room in center keep vacuum there will be no heat transfer. And maybe we didn't need that mini pump if we build it vacuum in the first place. Using corner build technique perhaps?

 

[Lilalaunekuh]

3 minutes ago, abud said:

Using corner build technique perhaps?

Works fine here^^