Still waiting for bosses to scale with players in the server

[spideswine]

31 minutes ago, Casm said:

The OP was talking about non-cheese strategies

What's cheese and what's not cheese is highly subjective.

31 minutes ago, Casm said:

Using walls to deal with the Dragonfly adds for example would be considered cheese and IMO ezmode.

And yet it's still a lot harder than just dealing with her with reduced health, besides with 2+(or wolfgang) people it's very easy to just kill them one by one then use the panflute on enrage, I have no idea why people are making such a fuss over walls, dfly's main problem is that she is the most poorly designed raid boss.

31 minutes ago, Casm said:

I mean, if you don't want easy mode, I don't know why you'd bother cheesing the bosses...that's pretty contradictory.

Well one part of it is that I don't view cheese the same way you do, the other is that it doesn't really meaningfully change the fight, it just makes me get rid of them in some other way(freezing them/waiting for them to die), so why bother.

Also(in general) there's the whole leveled playing field thing, where you can learn more efficient ways/methods to do things from others, it doesn't really work when everyone plays with a different version of the game.

31 minutes ago, Casm said:

Still though, the Dragonfly with the mod only has about 3k health solo, so fighting her without those strats can be a lot of fun and challenging without being gimmicked. It also gives a nice incentive to craft scalemail. What else am I going to use those scales for!?  You should give it a shot.

I don't see why basically ignoring them via scale-mail is better than ignoring them via walls, walls are mostly cheaper so I'll stick to those. I don't see the point of using scalemail if I aim to handicap myself for a challenge really.

31 minutes ago, Casm said:

Klaus, not sure what to say there. He hits hard so you have to be on the ball to avoid his attacks,

I mean it's same tier as deerclops, which you've called a pushover(not that I disagree).

31 minutes ago, Casm said:

which is doubly hard once he gets his bite attack.

I mean he will only have 1k hp then, you could easily afford to facetank it. Not that I'd suggest that, but you easily could.

31 minutes ago, Casm said:

Also, dealing with the Krampus spawns can be tricky solo. Again, I'm talking cheese-less strats here.

I don't even know what your definition of cheese is? Is waiting for one of them to do his roar thing to get a few hits on the other cheese? Is hitting one of them with a torch cheese?

31 minutes ago, Casm said:

Granted, he's not nearly as difficult with his normal amount of health but the point of the mod is to make these fights more manageable based on the number of players currently playing. In other words, it's intended to be soloable with the mod.

My point is that he is very reasonable solo with regular settings, I'd even say probably too easy on wolfgang.

31 minutes ago, Casm said:

On a side note, I don't think I've ever used Gunpowder to fight a boss in this game even modless. I'm not sure why though, lol. I just never bothered with it.

Well it's because it's pretty terrible without it(and with good reason, it's pretty damn lame), but it's a testament to just how little health they have with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

great argument.. its a mod.. its inherently bad... lol 10/10..

No, it's a mod, so it's a downside, it will have to compensate to be relevant, it doesn't.

This is why I'm against using it to cut the hp of toadstool for example, even though Imo he does have too much health in a solo environment.

20 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

besides, what gives u the idea i regularly play with that mod enabled?

Nothing, I never said or implied that you did.

In fact my guess was that you didn't.

20 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

besides, what gives u the idea i regularly play with that mod enabled? and i'm not deluded about anything.. and i ask u to respectfully don't take this on a personal level cuz im not insulting u and i expect the same from intelligent discussion parties.

When I said "deluding yourself" I didn't mean you, I meant the general user of that mode. It's a figure of speech.

20 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

i like to see what mods offer cuz even if elitist and purist don't wanna admit it.. mods have greatly contributed to the development of the game. 

Actually my whole leveled playing field argument doesn't hold for client mods, and I do think they(client mods) have meaningfully improved the game.

20 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

"all the options are bad".. but u never tell why..

I have, I just did it earlier on.(also there are more)

On 4/6/2018 at 8:19 PM, spideswine said:

I'm guessing OP wants something official, so that it would be consistent at least, and will have a dev seal of approval that things are the way they should.

If you take that mod with default values it does terrible, terrible things to the game.

Pretty much anything can be violated easily and efficiently with gunpowder, wolfgang makes any boss implode into itself, bearger can solo bee queen, and a bunch of other stuff I forgot/ am not aware of.

Oh and of course, when new players join the game, it actually makes the boss fights both harder AND less rewarding, as not only you are now gonna have to arm the new guy, get him to join the fight, and hope that he is at least as good at it as you are, you also now need to split the rewards.

Granted you can tweak the values, but for that you need to know what you want and that it's not making the game worse due to you misjudging things, which is a problem.

Anyway, I'd suggest staying away from that mod as the default values are god awful and figuring out what values are best is problematic(from my experience the experienced players would stay far away from that mod even in a solo environment, and the less experienced players tend to severely overestimate the advantage more players give(Hell even I did that when I started playing))

 

[FreyaMaluk]

14 minutes ago, spideswine said:

No, it's a mod, so it's a downside, it will have to compensate to be relevant, it doesn't.

This is why I'm against using it to cut the hp of toadstool for example, even though Imo he does have too much health in a solo environment.

Nothing, I never said or implied that you did.

In fact my guess was that you didn't.

When I said "deluding yourself" I didn't mean you, I meant the general user of that mode. It's a figure of speech.

Actually my whole leveled playing field argument doesn't hold for client mods, and I do think they(client mods) have meaningfully improved the game.

I have, I just did it earlier on.(also there are more)

 

u never explained in numbers better options.. u just assumed people are not able to figure out by themselves which values are appropriate..

i prefer to let people test and think for themselves and not assume they cannot do it or do the thinking for them... 

and i find kinda funny that u conveniently exclude some mods from the "mods are bad" argument ... maybe cuz u have tested them right? so .. let people test and decide for themselves...

and i am a experienced player myself. so not all experienced players are a cohesive thinking mass with the same thoughts.. so.. how about we suggest stuff and let people decide for themselves

[Casm]

You didn't address the point that you are arguing against an easy mode, then go out of your way to find strategies that quite literally makes those fights easy mode. Why use walls at all if you don't want an easy mode? It literally eliminates an entire element of the fight (which is why it's cheese) and is one of the few things that actually makes that fight a challenge in the first place. The OP is specifically arguing for balance changes that eliminates the need to use such strategies. Comparing that to the Scalemail is a pretty poor argument. It doesn't address that you have to kill the Dragonfly at least once to obtain one, or the durability management required thereafter. Not to mention that it's obvious that Scalemail is an intended strategy while walling larvae off behind walls is probably not what the developers had in mind when they designed the fight.

Now, I don't mind people that use walls. I'm all for strategies like that actually. I just don't understand why anyone that is vehemently arguing against 'easy mode' would make use of them. Like I said, it's contradictory (almost to the point that it seems like you're simply arguing for arguement's sake).

Also, the Deerclops, Moosegoose and Bearger are all way easier to manage than Klaus. Each one of them is literally 'dodge the attack, run in and smack a few times, then dodge the attack.' Rinse and repeat until dead. It's not hard to solo any of them, mod or not. Hell, you don't even need armor to reliably kill them. You can't really say that about Klaus. The Klaus fight is considerably more involved. Dealing with the Reindeer's spells and therefore overheating/freezing, Klaus' attacks, the Krampus spawns, the lunge attack, etc. None of which even compare to the relative ease of the seasonal bosses attacks. I'm not sure how you can even remotely compare that fight to the Deerclops, or how you can consider the Moosegoose 'not a pushover' and yet would argue that Klaus is probably 'too easy' with Wolfgang. Doesn't make much sense to me.

[spideswine]

35 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

u never explained in numbers better options..

I did say 20k for toadstool, but mostly that the original numbers are better, so I did, even though it was mostly "don't use that mod".

35 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

u just assumed people are not able to figure out by themselves which values are appropriate..

I mean a lot of new players really can't, there's just a lot of things they don't know, as far as experienced players go:

1 hour ago, spideswine said:

from my experience the experienced players would stay far away from that mod even in a solo environment, and the less experienced players tend to severely overestimate the advantage more players give(Hell even I did that when I started playing)

 

35 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

i prefer to let people test and think for themselves and not assume they cannot do it or do the thinking for them... 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with realizing that you lack knowledge and asking some knowledgeable for guidance, you know, someone like the devs, which is kinda what the OP is doing.

35 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

and i find kinda funny that u conveniently exclude some mods from the "mods are bad" argument ... maybe cuz u have tested them right? so .. let people test and decide for themselves...

Which ones? The client mods which don't affect the even playing field argument? Or the server ones I don't consider bad?

I never said mods are bad, I said this mod is bad, so probably don't use it.(again, figure of speech, so not you, but in general)

35 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

and i am a experienced player myself. so not all experienced players are a cohesive thinking mass with the same thoughts.. so.. how about we suggest stuff and let people decide for themselves

That's a great idea.

Would you suggest using this mod? If so with what settings, or anything else you would like to add on that matter?

 

 

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Casm said:

You didn't address the point that you are arguing against an easy mode, then go out of your way to find strategies that quite literally makes those fights easy mode.

I wouldn't say they make the fights "easy mode", they probably make them easier(though mostly cheaper and shorter), but they also require knowledge, which is what this game is all about, knowledge can make any task in this game a walk in the park, as it's not a PvP game.

Mind you installing ez mode doesn't really require any knowledge(outside of how to install mods, or turn on god mode), so I'm not sure what you're getting at. There's definitely a way to make anything harder, you can fight dfly with bugnets if you wanted to.

32 minutes ago, Casm said:

Why use walls at all if you don't want an easy mode? It literally eliminates an entire element of the fight (which is why it's cheese) and is one of the few things that actually makes that fight a challenge in the first place.

Because what is cheese? I could just freeze them with a flingo thus making them irrelevant, would that be cheese? Pick wolfgang and kill them as they spawn, would that be cheese? Run in cicrles till they die, would that be cheese? They either swarm you to death or become irrelevant, pretty much anything you do with them outside of dying makes them irrelevant.

32 minutes ago, Casm said:

The OP is specifically arguing for balance changes that eliminates the need to use such strategies. Comparing that to the Scalemail is a pretty poor argument.

Why?

32 minutes ago, Casm said:

It doesn't address that you have to kill the Dragonfly at least once to obtain one,

You can just stun it with 2 people/wolfgang, gunpowder can actually be useful here if you really want it, not sure what that changes though.

32 minutes ago, Casm said:

or the durability management required thereafter

I mean it's very easy to not lose an entire one per fight(considering measly hp values), you can do better and make it cheaper, you can also just run in circles, again, I just don't see what this achieves, you just replace one so called cheese with another.

32 minutes ago, Casm said:

Not to mention that it's obvious that Scalemail is an intended strategy while walling larvae off behind walls is probably not what the developers had in mind when they designed the fight.

I mean I'm fairly sure that they could've just made them jump over walls fairly easily if they wanted to. It's actually fairly feasible that they did have this in mind. As to scalemail it existed in the original DS as well, wasn't very useful there either as far as I recall.

32 minutes ago, Casm said:

Now, I don't mind people that use walls. I'm all for strategies like that actually. I just don't understand why anyone that is vehemently arguing against 'easy mode' would make use of them. Like I said, it's contradictory (almost to the point that it seems like you're simply arguing for arguement's sake).

Again, one requires knowledge, the other requires installing an ez mode, one of them makes a very taxing(I'm talking about if you bang you head straight into a wall, other cheeses can make it less taxing as well) fight rather reasonable, the other makes a rather reasonable fight(assuming you use knowledge of the game) into a joke.

32 minutes ago, Casm said:

Also, the Deerclops, Moosegoose and Bearger are all way easier to manage than Klaus. Each one of them is literally 'dodge the attack, run in and smack a few times, then dodge the attack.' Rinse and repeat until dead. It's not hard to solo any of them, mod or not. Hell, you don't even need armor to reliably kill them. You can't really say that about Klaus. The Klaus fight is considerably more involved. Dealing with the Reindeer's spells and therefore overheating/freezing, Klaus' attacks, the Krampus spawns, the lunge attack, etc

Well I was talking about pre lunge attack, the overheating/freezing is basically "carry a thermal stone, and no insulation of any sort", whereas the krampuses are "use a panflute" or "hit one while the other roars" or "hit one with the torch then tank the other", and the spells you can afford to just run away from in the animation if he just has 2k hp(in that phase).

It becomes a lot more involved when he has more hp and inefficient approaches suddenly become a lot more taxing and less reasonable, you can afford a lot of incompetence with those measly hp values however.

32 minutes ago, Casm said:

None of which even compare to the relative ease of the seasonal bosses attacks. I'm not sure how you can even remotely compare that fight to the Deerclops

Because if you just use a simple approach for the other things you've mentioned, it mostly like kiting deerclops.

32 minutes ago, Casm said:

or how you can consider the Moosegoose 'not a pushover' and yet would argue that Klaus is probably 'too easy' with Wolfgang. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Cause rng range, sometimes he will miss you when you are right in front of him attacking him, sometimes he will hit you half a screen a way. It's really annoying.

[Korlie]

On 4/5/2018 at 5:28 PM, JellyUltra said:

tl;dr: i can't facetank the fuelweaver as wigfrid and this makes me angry

(btw the fuelweaver is 100% possible without lazy explorers but tbh i don't see somebody like you listening to reason and i'm sure you'll find something else to complain about)

You have no idea whether I was facetanking or not, you just say that to try to make me sound stupid, you mention Wigfrid as if to further invalidate me when she has several huge disadvantages in that fight, and you completely ignore my entire post as well. The method for killing the Fuelweaver without lazy explorers is cheese, because you are abusing the technical limitations of the attack to negate its entire effect. The attack is designed to be something which locks players in place, it has no actual mechanical counter it is meant to be a mandatory thing players have to deal with during the fight unless they use a Lazy Explorer. Standing by the edges of the map so the game can't spawn the cage properly is an exploit. If you can't tell based on that description of it, that it is an exploit, well then that's your problem I suppose.

Your post is not constructive, and it does not even have anything to do with the actual topic of my post. It is just insecure, hostile, toxicity and I generally find a great deal of your posts to be comparable. So I do not think I am going to acknowledge you again, because there is nothing worth acknowledging in your posts.

But what is especially disgusting, is that your volatile immaturity gets highly rated. So there are at least fourteen other people on this forum who have not grown up yet, and I find that very discouraging. I'm not going to bother clicking to see from those ratings who else on this forum is underdeveloped, I'll just take a general decrease to my prioritization to be here.

On 4/6/2018 at 1:30 AM, Szczuku said:

All of dst bosses are 100% solo-able

"OMG this game is so bad I actually need to make this item or place this bunnyman hutch in order to kill this boss" 

Yea because that's the point of these bosses. If they were another Deerclops or Bearger where you hit them 3 times move away repeat then you'd complain about developers not being creative and adding challanges for muliplayer groups.

We get it, you can't read. I clearly state that one of the problems is that bosses take obscene amounts of resources to solo them, yeah nice try saying "bunnyman hutch"  and "this item in single when you should know it takes numerous. In my post I acknowledge the bosses can be solo'd, but the problem is the amount of resources and the absurd techniques required to do it. You are repeating an argument I already preemptively diffused.

And you have no idea what I would and would not criticize, how about you not claim things about me to try to make me sound stupid because you're insecure.

On 4/6/2018 at 12:01 AM, xxVERSUSxy said:

Otherwise is a multiplayer, designed for groups.

You didn't read my post did you, because I address this "logic" in my post. So I assume that if you actually read it you would have already seen my point against that and not brought it up. This is so common online.

 

On 4/6/2018 at 11:52 AM, Auth said:

 

By asking for health scaling, that either means you want their health to also grow with the player count, or you want it to grow with the current vanilla max player limit.

That would mean you want deerclops to have 1/32th of the health he has normally. (That’s 125 health)

Or you could say you want it to, say, add another 1000 per player from what the base game has him at.

 

That’s 33,000 max health. Just for deerclops.

Yeah, I want Deerclops to have either 125 health or 33000 health. That sounds like a plan. Is this the new meta, you think up a bad version of the mechanic I am suggesting to try to make my suggestion look bad. No what you do is, you make the scaling mechanic additive and diminishing.

Where does 33k even come from, you were talking about 1000 per player so does that mean you are inferring normal people are playing in games with 32 present? I'm pretty sure 32 people could melt a boss with 33k health, the only limitation is if there is enough room around the boss for everybody to pile in.

 

 

On 4/7/2018 at 5:01 AM, Sinister_Fang said:

I personally disagree. The balance is a bit of a joke in my opinion. With too few people the fights take forever, but with too many the fights end up being a joke. A scaling mechanic would help to keep the balance a bit more consistent. It would also make it so cheese strategies aren't nearly mandatory for solo fights.

I generally find this as well considering the amount of DPS a group can get. And when the group is using cheese ontop of this the fight is essentially effortless. Why wouldn't you, not using cheese just means you have to grind for more equipment. Not walling off the Lavae does nothing but waste more of your healing and equipment. And the developers have made no effort to remove the cheese or balance the fight. So what do you do, spend a half hour kiting the Guardian, spend a couple thulecite sets tanking the Guardian, or just use a gravestone/pillar to kill him.

The developers should be patching their game to remove cheese to begin with since, players can use it to negate the gameplay. Any other developers does that, removes exploits players use to cheat their game. Basic game management after release. Although at this point they are probably scared everybody will have a tantrum if their meta gets ruined.

But beyond that the cheese is so generally enticing because actually fighting the bosses without it even with groups is just unappealing. Since you have the choice of, the Lavae are going to be obnoxious and drain your health and armor so why allow them to make the fight more tedious and resource consuming when you can just wall them off. The developers give you the ability to cheat the fight and they give you the desire to cheat the fight by making it annoying and grindy to start. The Lavae should not be able to be stopped by walls and signs but at the same time they should actually be an interesting part of the fight instead of a spammy swarm.

 

 

I'm going to end my acknowledgement of this topic with that as that is the only constructive comment I saw on the first page. If there were other good replies on the first page then I didn't notice them before I got sick of reading as the very first post capped my tolerance of awful people on the internet for today.

[Whoneedspacee]

Just accept it everyone, spides will always believe he is right and therefore nothing is cheese ever, and he will rebuke this by asking a trillion questions that you have to spend time answering and then he will ignore later.

We’ve had two threads with this man and pages of ****, it’s time to move on.

As for the OP, why are you against the mechanic to dodge the bone cage? It’s not overpowered at all and isn’t easy to do, I feel like it adds to the fight when you use no lazy explorer.

Anyways you’re welcome to develop any strategies you want if you refuse to use a configurable mod and are refusing to use current strategies which cater specifically to your problem.

[spideswine]

30 minutes ago, Whoneedspacee said:

Just accept it everyone, spides will always believe he is right

In contrast to everyone else here, who thinks they are wrong.

30 minutes ago, Whoneedspacee said:

and he will rebuke this by asking a trillion questions that you have to spend time answering and then he will ignore later.

I don't remember ignoring anything, in contrast to what you're currently doing.

30 minutes ago, Whoneedspacee said:

We’ve had two threads with this man and pages of ****, it’s time to move on.

Yes that's what happens when people disagree and try to get their points across, in contrast to just writing a short paragraph of BS mocking the other side without going into details as to why you disagree with them. Because you've already done so and they disagreed with that too, the audacity of some people. This too, in stark contrast to what you're doing right now.

30 minutes ago, Whoneedspacee said:

As for the OP, why are you against the mechanic to dodge the bone cage? It’s not overpowered at all and isn’t easy to do, I feel like it adds to the fight when you use no lazy explorer.

No, that's cheese, you could face tank it, but that's cheese too, you can kite it, but that's also cheese.

The only proper way to do it is something very particular I had in mind and requires an exact amount of people using the exact resources and approach I thought of, everything else is cheese and the devs should remove those options.

[Whoneedspacee]

1 hour ago, spideswine said:

In contrast to everyone else here, who thinks they are wrong.

No, that's cheese, you could face tank it, but that's cheese too, you can kite it, but that's also cheese.

The only proper way to do it is something very particular I had in mind and requires an exact amount of people using the exact resources and approach I thought of, everything else is cheese and the devs should remove those options.

1st point fair enough.

2nd point you’re wrong, I specifically said in my post that cheese isn’t even bad as well, and that cheese is determined by how much work and the odds of you dying, it’s opinionated but most people can agree that a boss getting killed by monsters or being unable to move and getting killed by a turret is cheese.

3rd point confirms that you did not read my post or simply did not understand it, I made it very clear that was not what I thought, and that it was opinionated what was cheese in some cases, but in most cases you can tell by the fact that the player is not even attacking the boss, or is standing still, using monsters or other methods.

I never advocated for removing cheese options, only ones that abuse clear bugs, like lureplants. Tentacle spam is fine, bunnymen and pig farm stuff is fine, but lureplants are clearly not meant to be used this way.

[spideswine]

20 minutes ago, Whoneedspacee said:

1st point fair enough.

2nd point you’re wrong, I specifically said in my post that cheese isn’t even bad as well, and that cheese is determined by how much work and the odds of you dying, it’s opinionated but most people can agree that a boss getting killed by monsters or being unable to move and getting killed by a turret is cheese.

3rd point confirms that you did not read my post or simply did not understand it, I made it very clear that was not what I thought, and that it was opinionated what was cheese in some cases, but in most cases you can tell by the fact that the player is not even attacking the boss, or is standing still, using monsters or other methods.

I never advocated for removing cheese options, only ones that abuse clear bugs, like lureplants. Tentacle spam is fine, bunnymen and pig farm stuff is fine, but lureplants are clearly not meant to be used this way.

Thing is the term cheese keeps turning up in this thread, and every time people see it differently, and me talking about cheese at that point wasn't directed at how you view cheese, but at your response to OP, and how he views cheese.

Specifically this part:

2 hours ago, Korlie said:

And the developers have made no effort to remove the cheese

 

20 minutes ago, Whoneedspacee said:

it’s opinionated but most people can agree that a boss getting killed by monsters

I'm not sure that's true, as some people would just see it as part of knowing the game combined with the fact it's not trivial to set it up, or very costly in the case of bunnymen.

Though to be fair, since we are more or less talking bee queen here(and to a lesser extent dfly), this actually is another good example of what I've previously said. You can swarm her with monsters causing the fight to be trivial and cheese, you can also swarm her with people(to clarify I mean that ~5 people can just hold f and melt through her and her bees) which is also trivial and cheese. So how can you not cheese her? By using the setup shown in the video? Or by getting swarmed to death/tanking her bees with a medium amount of people?

[Whoneedspacee]

50 minutes ago, spideswine said:

Thing is the term cheese keeps turning up in this thread, and every time people see it differently, and me talking about cheese at that point wasn't directed at how you view cheese, but at your response to OP, and how he views cheese.

Specifically this part:

 

I'm not sure that's true, as some people would just see it as part of knowing the game combined with the fact it's not trivial to set it up, or very costly in the case of bunnymen.

Though to be fair, since we are more or less talking bee queen here(and to a lesser extent dfly), this actually is another good example of what I've previously said. You can swarm her with monsters causing the fight to be trivial and cheese, you can also swarm her with people(to clarify I mean that ~5 people can just hold f and melt through her and her bees) which is also trivial and cheese. So how can you not cheese her? By using the setup shown in the video? Or by getting swarmed to death/tanking her bees with a medium amount of people?

People being there and face tanking does not equal cheese, I’d hoped I’d made that clear in the video examples but apparently not.

The fuelweaver video I consider cheese due to the amount of gear and lack of any strategy besides weather pain spam, the odds of them losing or dying are basically zero due to the amount of gear they have.

The dragonfly video there’s less odds of this certain victory, no 30 life amulets or healing items or thulecite gear lining the arena. Though they most likely wouldn’t lose and aren’t really using strategies besides overwhelming numbers, there’s definitely a possibility of dying, especially with the other run they did which failed.

Bee queen is a garbage designed boss, and you do basically require a certain amount of gear to beat her, but there are definitely other ways than Joe’s method which wouldn’t be cheese as well. Raw speed, face tanking and Abigail or flingomatics to freeze bees, walls to the ocean to seperate bees, etc. As long as there’s some real possibility for loss it isn’t cheese. And no being an idiot and getting caught in your own tentacle trap does not count.

Anyways, nobody should feel forced to not cheese but I do want them to acknowledge that bragging about that fight is stupid, if you can even call it a fight. Maybe that’s a bit of the elitism talking but it’s not impressive when someone just kills the boss with monsters or broken mechanics for the nth time. I want everyone to experience the bosses without cheese at least once because it’s very fun to actually experience the mechanics of the boss. I only don’t recommend this for Bee queen and Toadstool as they have no great strategies for taking them down and definitely aren’t fun with existing strategies.

Klaus, Fuelweaver, Dragonfly, Shadow pieces, and Antlion are the best bosses of this game imo. Stuff like Dragonfly’s timed dodging mechanic on top of his high dps and Fuelweaver’s strategical and timed dodging of the bone cage on the wall and destroying unseen bands and the fear that if you get caught out without a lazy explorer the fight can essentially reset with him eating tons, make them very fun and high stakes with strategies that take skill and reward heavily.

I’m not forcing or shaming anyone to play the game in this way, I just think it’s more fun to actually fight it yourself and experience the mechanics and fight yourself. Of course there’s the concern of people that may not know how to dodge dragonfly or fuelweaver’s bone cage, but there are other strategies like the walls. Most of the fun in the game is in the bosses for me, and then finding new strategies and perfecting them.

[Rellimarual]

The health adjust mod works extremely well. You can customize every mob at world gen, as is clearly explained on the Workshop page. It is possible to tweak the settings to your exact desires, such as just scaling down the raid bosses to make them soloable, leaving everything else at DST defaults so that you don’t get out of practice when you play with others. Whether the mod’s default settings are to any particular person’s preferences is just irrelevant. Anyone able to figure out how to use the mod in the first place can just as easily finetune it.

[Szczuku]

48 minutes ago, Rellimarual said:

The health adjust mod works extremely well. You can customize every mob at world gen, as is clearly explained on the Workshop page. It is possible to tweak the settings to your exact desires, such as just scaling down the raid bosses to make them soloable, leaving everything else at DST defaults so that you don’t get out of practice when you play with others. Whether the mod’s default settings are to any particular person’s preferences is just irrelevant. Anyone able to figure out how to use the mod in the first place can just as easily finetune it.

No, no, no, no because it's not his way. He will try to make developers adjust the game for his taste... or at least that's what I've gotten out of this thread

[MondayNight]

4 hours ago, Korlie said:

You didn't read my post did you, because I address this "logic" in my post. So I assume that if you actually read it you would have already seen my point against that and not brought it up. This is so common online.

You indeed have addressed it, but in a rather subjective manner:

On 4/6/2018 at 12:09 AM, Korlie said:

There's the excuse that like "but it's supposed to be a raid boss" no, raid bosses are a feature in massive multiplayer games where joining a group of 30+ people is as easy as joining a clan and waiting for when they go on their next raid or going into a matchmaking system that has been designed to pair you up for the fight. This is not that, this is a survival game with rogue-like gameplay and world design with no automatic matchmaking. It is the exact opposite kind of game for raid bosses, as seen by how much traffic the superbosses are get on average. They are not raid bosses, they are regular bosses with poorly balanced power levels. Also, raid bosses are not put in as a part of the progression system, they are optional side content. The 60% in this game, are a part of both the actual plot progression and player progression and they are the only mid to late game bosses in the entire game there are no other mid to late game bosses to fight instead; they are all that 60%.

Your definition of a raid boss is pretty strict, limited to MMOs with high number of people, whilst a raid boss can be just "a boss that is extremely difficult in comparison to other types of bosses in that game" - aka a "super-boss". By that Toadstool is a super-boss compared to seasonal ones. Is it meant to be tackled by teams of people? Sure is, we are in Together obviously. Can it be solo-ed? Sure it can (and I exemplified first-hand my friend's case with very few resources used, also via weak characters - Max & Wes - as he's very efficient/high skilled from a lot of practice). Do bosses need more balance updates? I personally think they could use some further tweaking; what exactly? Most likely I would be subjective too (am only a regular player).

[spideswine]

11 hours ago, Whoneedspacee said:

People being there and face tanking does not equal cheese, I’d hoped I’d made that clear in the video examples but apparently not.

Definitely not.

11 hours ago, Whoneedspacee said:

The fuelweaver video I consider cheese due to the amount of gear and lack of any strategy besides weather pain spam, the odds of them losing or dying are basically zero due to the amount of gear they have.

That video still has more strategy to it than a bunch of people holding f, not by much, but it does.

11 hours ago, Whoneedspacee said:

And no being an idiot and getting caught in your own tentacle trap does not count.

As if dying to bee queen/dragonfly by any other means doesn't fall under the category "of dying like an idiot". I've seen more decent players(needless to say with newer players it gets even worse) die to tentacle traps used to fight the boss much more than when fighting the boss by pretty much any other means, hell same goes for bunnymen. That's because for a tentacle trap one slip and you're dead, for pretty much any other strat you need a lot of them, and you need to really have no idea what the hell you're doing for that to happen.

It's completely absurd to me that you define cheese by the likelihood of failure yet still see strats with a higher likelihood of failure to be cheese.

11 hours ago, Whoneedspacee said:

Anyways, nobody should feel forced to not cheese but I do want them to acknowledge that bragging about that fight is stupid, if you can even call it a fight. Maybe that’s a bit of the elitism talking

You think?

11 hours ago, Whoneedspacee said:

but it’s not impressive when someone just kills the boss with monsters or broken mechanics for the nth time.

Yes, a new innovative strat is more impressive than seeing the same thing for the 100th time, mind you the new innovative strat can be "cheese", and I'd definitely say that when I was new I was far more impressed with the tentacle field than seeing 5 people just hold f to mow down bee queen.

11 hours ago, Whoneedspacee said:

I only don’t recommend this for Bee queen and Toadstool as they have no great strategies for taking them down and definitely aren’t fun with existing strategies.

Because dfly isn't the most poorly designed raid boss right? you either wall of the lavae or kill them as they spawn, then proceed to hold f. And I actually find toadstool fun with enough people. And who even remains at that point? Klaus doesn't have any cheeses which aren't moronic(subpar to not using them), fuelweaver has some really lame ones, so I'll give you that one, antlion is a complete pushover with 2 or more people, ancient guadrian has no mechanics, and I'm pretty sure he's intended to be cheesed considering they could've changed him for DST, but just multiplied his hp by 5 instead(as if just thinking "People will just hold f near a pillar anyway, a pillar we didn't remove even though we had plenty of chances to do so"), for the shadow pieces you can probably cheese them, but it's so pointless I don't think I've seen anyone bother with it. So fuelweaver?

11 hours ago, Whoneedspacee said:

Stuff like Dragonfly’s timed dodging mechanic

As wolfgang maybe, for everyone else that fight is just really tedious. Unless you just hold f with ~3 people behind a wall, then it's just really boring.

11 hours ago, Whoneedspacee said:

I only don’t recommend this for Bee queen and Toadstool as they have no great strategies for taking them down

Try bee queen with 18 beefalos in heat(exactly 18), and no wolfgang/wx.

11 hours ago, Whoneedspacee said:

Stuff like Dragonfly’s timed dodging mechanic on top of his high dps and Fuelweaver’s strategical and timed dodging of the bone cage on the wall and destroying unseen bands and the fear that if you get caught out without a lazy explorer the fight can essentially reset with him eating tons, make them very fun and high stakes with strategies that take skill and reward heavily.

You can also do a 1 hp run without wolfgang/overcharged wx, but some of us don't like forced challenge to make us practice the fight 20 times beforehand, and which are really infuriating if you don't have low ping.

11 hours ago, Whoneedspacee said:

Most of the fun in the game is in the bosses for me, and then finding new strategies and perfecting them.

I find it confusing that you used wolfgang in the fuelweaver video then, isn't he "easy mode on steroids" against bosses? Hopefully you did it just to make the fight shorter to fit on video, otherwise I'm confused.

 

Point is your definition of cheese makes absolutely no sense to me and I don't think it ever will. So I suppose will agree to disagree.

[Auth]

12 hours ago, Korlie said:

Yeah, I want Deerclops to have either 125 health or 33000 health. That sounds like a plan. Is this the new meta, you think up a bad version of the mechanic I am suggesting to try to make my suggestion look bad. No what you do is, you make the scaling mechanic additive and diminishing.

Where does 33k even come from, you were talking about 1000 per player so does that mean you are inferring normal people are playing in games with 32 present? I'm pretty sure 32 people could melt a boss with 33k health, the only limitation is if there is enough room around the boss for everybody to pile in.

I'm going to end my acknowledgement of this topic with that as that is the only constructive comment I saw on the first page. If there were other good replies on the first page then I didn't notice them before I got sick of reading as the very first post capped my tolerance of awful people on the internet for today.

I think the best reply to this would be something in your own words: 

12 hours ago, Korlie said:

You didn't read my post did you, because I address this "logic" in my post. So I assume that if you actually read it you would have already seen my point against that and not brought it up. This is so common online.

And I went with your idea. Additive and diminishing. But you didn't bother reading the math and reasoning, just cut to the results. Way to kill something by hiding behind a pillar, champ.

And then I like how you only read 1 reply supporting your idea as the only "constructive criticism" here in the entire topic.
My criticism is meant to be constructive. It's showing you the other side. Nowhere did I insult you or have any means to try to belittle you or anyone else that shares your opinion. I personally do not agree with you, and I stated my thoughts and ideas. However, it truly does seem you picked and chose what you wanted to read from the posts I've made that I've tried to make sure I thoroughly explain my logic behind my opinions while you get angry at someone for doing the exact same thing. Ouch, dude.

I'm not here to get mad, I'm not here to insult people, I'm not here to point and laugh and say "ha ha what a stupid idea". However, I am here to share my opinion and personal experiences. If you think something's wrong, go ahead and tell me instead of jumping to the conclusion that in some short words I now somehow think you're an idiot. I don't. I just personally do not agree with a scaling mechanic, and I have made more posts that delve into my logic and thinking. If you'd like to object and challenge my opinion, which I hope you do, please reply and directly quote the parts you question. I am all for a debate, but what I'm not all for is someone walking in, asking a controversial question, picking the one reply that supports them as "the only good post" and then shunning everyone off as "mean" and "toxic" because they don't share your approach. Thank you.

[Sicko Hog]

19 hours ago, Korlie said:

You have no idea whether I was facetanking or not, you just say that to try to make me sound stupid

On 4/5/2018 at 2:09 PM, Korlie said:

I can totally just facetank him right

hmmm

[Szczuku]

@ImDaMisterL Maybe it's time to lock this post. Yay or nay?

[csc_unit]

We are way past the LD50 for this thread.