Why Has Nothing Changed?

[Lumina]

Just now, kertinker said:

The Forge isn't even remotely the same game, so I don't think it applies to buffs in DST. How's Willow going to freeze to death in that arena? Where's Woodie going to find trees to chop?

 

6 minutes ago, Lumina said:

And i like the fact that in events, role and balance of character could be completely different. It's a nice change, even if it doesn't change the base game. I like playing Wickerbottom, but in the Forge, i liked playing other characters (Webber was one of my favorites). It's not the same thing than a base game balance, of course, but it's a great way to introduce changes and make people considering characters in another point of view.

Yes, i'm aware of that. But i feel it's a great occasion to put some other character under the spotlight with less dramatic consequences, and offers opportunity to have turnover between events and so between "best" characters, and encourage people to play someone else than their usual favorite.

No, it doesn't remove the need for a balance and tuning in base game, but it allows some space for creativity and changes that aren't possible in the base game, for various reasons, or too dangerous to make.

[Scaltra]

When it comes to balancing characters I agree that fun is furst for sure I think willow isn't fun personally ds willow vs dust willow does seem fun to me though like Mr said I'd love to see that willow in dst with insanity freezing in its current state

[Mr.Mulk]

42 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I'm probably in the minority, at least here on the forums, but I don't really think it's a huge deal, and especially not a priority.

 It feels like I'm walking into a heated Smite, Dota, League, or whatever discussion. Those competitive games where precise balance is such an issue because its player vs player.

I'd rather them devote their time to bringing fresh new content than tweaking numbers-if it really bothered me I'd do it myself. The only character I really want changed is Winona, not to make her more viable or stand up to the rest but to make her have a more interesting playstyle specific to her.

At the end of the day that's all that matters to me. That all the characters play differently. Not how they amount in comparison to one another.

I understand that these types of discussions can often turn people away as they have a nasty habit of turning ugly.Thankfully I'd say we've managed to keep it civil here and respectful.

Now as to your statements I want you to understand where most of us are coming from. The simple fact is that a large disparity does exist in terms of balancing between the characters, and it makes it a lot less fun to play the "bad" characters like Willow or Woodie for I'd guess most people. Sure you can just ignore the prejudice in the community but ignoring doesn't actually fix the problem. Instead a rebalancing that buffs Willow and Woodie would help their characters become immediately viable once again. This thread isn't supposed to be about the specific details on why each character needs a buff (you can find more than enough threads/comments on that subject), but instead asking more in the general sense of why nothing has been and done and why that should change.

Also adding new content is great but I'd prefer it to have the foundation of a balanced character list to begin with.

Also this is very late I'm aware but I wanted to say a special thanks to @Cellby for your post specifically, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[MondayNight]

Out of the bat, I for one have chosen to continue playing DST (and eventually became my all-time favorite game) after experimenting it solely for its fun, relaxing aspect. Sure, survival and action, I like them, but that wasn't what primarily attracted me. It was the prospect of "road from scarcity to prosperity" and the creativity that comes with said prosperity. In that line of thoughts characters like Wickerbottom, Wolfgang and - to some extend - WX-78, are fun (for me) to play. Are they balanced compared to the rest of cast? Obviously not as, after mastering their cons, they can achieve things quicker and, again, in a more fun way. But guess what? I ALSO like Woodie to the point I 'mained' him for quite some time. And Willow. Not for the "balanced" aspect in global context, but because of their traits and (fictional) personalities - those made them, again, fun for me. Would I like a buff for them that would up the fun factor? Beaver sure needs some love, yes. Willow? I can manage her without fire immunity (insanity torching on the other hand was just hazardous, even more so for nf farming in base). But burning stuff in inventory for AoE damage? No, that just.. no. The video previously posted here shows just how insane such a mechanic is, even if you don't consider the PvP aspect. Once more: sure, it would be pretty fun to damage-burn everything around you while you yourself are immune to it, like fire-murder Deer in 10s - for the first 3-4 times. But then I also consider the second - still, obvious - aspect of DST: multiplayer. And my experience in pubs - yes, it is about griefing. Contrary to "but anyone can make a torch and yolo", by far the most used griefing character is Willow. Because griefers want immediate gratification: they run from spawn, lighter in hand, burning everything without a moment of rest. Looking for base, any form of "base" to burn. The basic ones, newbie griefers, don't pick anything, don't eat, just burn. Advanced ones, Clouds-tier, go in middle of winter or spring on pubs, pick Willow and roam map, nomad survivalists, just in search of "da bais" - to burn it; that's their only goal. Factor now fire immunity and AoE from fire damage via burning stuff in inventory (twigs, grass, petals etc) - can you imagine the insanity of such a thing from griefing standpoint??! (at least in case of Wicker or Wolf one needs quite a bit of preparation and gathering, for On Tentacles or amassing food in sufficient quantities to be always mighty/full perks - burning stuff in inventory just needs basic resources found everywhere, anything goes, for a huge damage potential - the highest in game) And now we can also underline the big pro of Willow in cold conditions, resource-scarcity: the lighter! On winter (bonus if also night) servers, Willow (and Woodie for his small cold resistance plus night vision in beaver form) shine, and shine bright! (pun intended)

As for competitiveness and PvP aspect of DST... don't really care, personally, so no discussion in that direction from yours truly.

 

TL;DR: beaver Woodie really needs buffs, likewise Shadow Duelists; Willow not so much, but some small buffs - Bernie being able to attract any kind of shadow creature - would be appreciated; Winona needs a revamp of pro/cons, is just a weaker Wilson atm, blunt in regard to "fun factor".

 

Last but not least, an hones question: why do you guys asking for it want fire immunity for Willow? Why is that so important for you - you wanna always setup beside magma ponds and use them as makeshift furnaces and/or kiting enraged DF day 3 that much? Have you considered what consequences will be in regard to griefers?

[Mr.Mulk]

49 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

 But burning stuff in inventory for AoE damage? No, that just.. no. The video previously posted here shows just how insane such a mechanic is, even if you don't consider the PvP aspect.

Consider the amount of resources this ability consumes for only a brief period of strength. Consider that it is incredibly risky, you have a good chance to destroy your own stuff in the process. However if executed right it is a completely fair payoff for the risk involved. It's an extreme balance sure, but it's balanced in the sense that it requires setup, preparation, and care in execution. Once you remove the rose glasses of console commands from that video it makes a lot more sense why they added it into Don't Starve in the first place. Also are you suggesting it's in any way more imbalanced than let's say, Wolfgang's ability to essentially become OP at any time he likes? Or Wicker's ability to supply every other character endlessly with food to the point Wolfgang's can stay infinitely mighty? Or how WX can be charged by Wicker and upgrade to a 400hp health pool? You know, in comparison to these things inventory burning is paltry, sure it's great, but it takes time, effort, and preparation to execute safely. As far as the PVP comment goes it still wouldn't imbalance it because by the time you collected the resources to reproduce the video, you'd already have been offed by a Wolfgang. Also burning resources, well, burns them, as in, you can't use it anymore. So this ability has a pretty high price if you want any substantial longevity with it. Not to mention it's super risky, accidentally get led by a boss into the wrong area and poof there goes your base.

49 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

 yes, it is about griefing. Contrary to "but anyone can make a torch and yolo", by far the most used griefing character is Willow. Because griefers want immediate gratification: they run from spawn, lighter in hand, burning everything without a moment of rest. Looking for base, any form of "base" to burn.

I haven't encountered that type of griefing since launch, now most don't even mess with fire, it's too obvious. They focus more on spawn traps, taking valuables and disconnecting, or abusing werebeaver's destroy ability. Also you don't actually make any points to justify why griefing means willow should be nerfed into oblivion. People still pick her due to the instant lighter regardless of whether or not she is nerfed, the nerf just negatively affects those that actually regularly main her.

49 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

Last but not least, an hones question: why do you guys asking for it want fire immunity for Willow? Why is that so important for you - you wanna always setup beside magma ponds and use them as makeshift furnaces and/or kiting enraged DF day 3 that much? Have you considered what consequences will be in regard to griefers?

Well duh if we want inventory burning fire immunity is kinda a requirement. Also, how does it impact griefers? Being immune to fire, even when using the "burn everything approach" to griefing is largely trivial.

If you still aren't convinced inventory burning is balanced I'd suggest that you do a playthrough with Willow in DS and then see what you think, it's a lot tougher than the video makes it out to be.

I mean I addressed this stuff in my original post already

[DarkXero]

16 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

I get what you're saying, but it's especially hard when they're making valid arguments at to why their mains are superior to yours, it kinda stinks. There are actually times where you can have people just ban/kick you for your main because they're "useless" which is dumb but reality.

Valid arguments if you're a try-hard concerned with the uttermost efficiency. People play Wes too. If people ban you for not playing Wolfgang, and you rebalance everything, these same people will ban you for not farming meat correctly, for wasting meat on meatballs, for doing whatever they feel it's not worth doing. Basically, if you deviate from the meta.

And you can't go against those idiots. THEY EXIST IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. And first they ask you to pick Wolfgang, then they ask you to make bacon and eggs only, then they ask you to kill the dragonfly in 10 minutes, then they ask you to have 1000 hours logged in before playing on their servers, then they ask you to have a 100 kill count of all giants.

Again, ignore them. They are just a vocal minority, obsessed. There will always be the most efficient path. Now we have the question: "Is Don't Starve a game where you must travel that path every single time?". The answer is no. This is not a MMO. This is not a skinner-box game where you have a carrot on a stick and people rush through the broken glass to get the carrot. Here you are given both the carrot and the stick and you do whatever you want with them.

Also KCDA will ban you only if you say Brawl > Melee.

16 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

To sum up I get that there would still be annoying people, but it'd certainly help if there was more balance to counter with.

I can say with 100% certainty that it would not. There's always something.

 

Now, I'm not saying that character rebalances are bad.

17 hours ago, Mario384 said:

It's probably not the issue of balance that people have problems with (WX, Wicker, and Wolfgang literally out-do everyone else by a huge margin it's not even funny), but it's that these characters aren't fun.

This pretty much nailed it.

I would like being a werebeaver. Except I get 1 minute of chopping and 30 minutes of shadows, or I have to go human, plant pinecones, go back. All tedious micromanaging and pain in the ass for no gain because the werebeaver sucks. Always staying as Woodie is the not painful way of playing Woodie.

Willow is nothing else but DUDE COLD LMAO. And Winona is DUDE TAPE LMAO.

[Mr.Mulk]

I've already stated multiple times that I'm aware that there will always be toxic people, I've said that more than once. What I'm postulating is simply that it'd help if the characters were better balanced in regards to cutting down on the hate within the community. As far as the valid arguments thing goes, I agree that some aspects of the arguments of efficiency are trivial however others, like the fact a skilled Wolfgang could easily solo a dragonfly unarmored, aren't so trivial. Compare what I just described to Willow, or really any of the other characters that aren't the meta, that should make it clear there's an issue that needs to be addressed.

I agree that ignoring the elitists when faced with it is the right course of action. However, it would be nice if they had simply no legitimate base for their prejudice. I don't think they're justified mind you, people need to lighten up and let people play who they want, but they do make some points that hit home.

12 minutes ago, DarkXero said:

I can say with 100% certainty that it would not. There's always something.

But it would cut down on the (unethical) validity of it. I'm not suggesting a panacea here, there will always be a toxicity in a community, however if the angry elitist meta players didn't have an actual leg to stand on it would help.

[Scaltra]

1 hour ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

 

Last but not least, an hones question: why do you guys asking for it want fire immunity for Willow? Why is that so important for you - you wanna always setup beside magma ponds and use them as makeshift furnaces and/or kiting enraged DF day 3 that much? Have you considered what consequences will be in regard to griefers?

Because, (at least in my opinion and I'll explain why) resistence with something so niche in the game is pretty boring and they turn you off to actually doing that thing.

If you are fighting an enemy and you want to kill them faster you could light an area on fire and run them through it. There are two reasons you don't actually want to do that though instead of taking the time to fight them.

Firstly, you will most likely loss the drops depending on the mob probably the big one. The second reason and probably the largest one for never doing it at all would be because you only have a resistence you still take damage loss the resources you just burned to do the damage and you might misout on the loot. A fire resistence isnt fun and it doesn't incentive using her ability like an immunity does, it just isn't as fun or cool. 

[Mario384]

10 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

I've already stated multiple times that I'm aware that there will always be toxic people, I've said that more than once. What I'm postulating is simply that it'd help if the characters were better balanced in regards to cutting down on the hate within the community. As far as the valid arguments thing goes, I agree that some aspects of the arguments of efficiency are trivial however others, like the fact a skilled Wolfgang could easily solo a dragonfly unarmored, aren't so trivial. Compare what I just described to Willow, or really any of the other characters that aren't the meta, that should make it clear there's an issue that needs to be addressed.

I agree that ignoring the elitists when faced with it is the right course of action. However, it would be nice if they had simply no legitimate base for their prejudice. I don't think they're justified mind you, people need to lighten up and let people play who they want, but they do make some points that hit home.

But it would cut down on the (unethical) validity of it. I'm not suggesting a panacea here, there will always be a toxicity in a community, however if the angry elitist meta players didn't have an actual leg to stand on it would help.

I actually agree with DarkXero here, the elitism of this community isn't only fueled by characters, but rather a lot of things, such as base-building, farming, and other things.

If you take the leg they stand on, they'll build a whole new one and beat you over the head with it regardless.

[Mr.Mulk]

2 minutes ago, Mario384 said:

I actually agree with DarkXero here, the elitism of this community isn't only fueled by characters, but rather a lot of things, such as base-building, farming, and other things.

If you take the leg they stand on, they'll build a whole new one and beat you over the head with it regardless.

I'm not disagreeing with him, I'm suggesting we cut out the one leg that they have.

[Scaltra]

4 hours ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

 

Also ignoring feedback is extremely dangerous. While some players (less than 2 hours a week) may not be as active as some members of the community they still are part of the player base. Ignoring select feedback can have extremely dangerous consequences. (Like Team Fortress 2's developers listening to the competitive community and stripping the casual matchmaking system of nearly all its functionality in 2016 to help further the competitive community's goals. Casual players were extremely upset and Valve had to re-implement functionality they removed to appease the competitive player base because they were losing a notable amount of casual players. Isolating a portion of the player base can lead to very bad things.)

Ignoring feedback is extremely dangerous you are right, one of the worst things you could do in my oppinon is not listen to constructive feedback from your playerbase. This is evident in team fortresses case; however, this is not team fortress and no one is being unheard. I fail to see groups calling out and claiming these characters don't need a buff or that things are fine, I've heard nothing from such players. 

A competitive team based co-op game is not very comparable to don't starve together as that is not the main game mode. Buffing these two weak characters is not going to cause unbalance and ruin the game for anyone at all. 

If anything it would add a much needed diversity to the don't starve roasters you see publicly played. By buffing a character you are appeasing to both the competitive players who want a more balanced and fair game for all characters and make it so people who pick a currently considered "low tier" character they won't actually be a drag on a team or be at a disadvantage, as a newer player wouldn't know.

[Maslak]

18 hours ago, DarkXero said:

You can turn all characters into Wilson but that won't stop KCDA from lambasting you with an orbital cannon.

Ignore and move on.

You have this great abbility of inducing laugh every time. That's golden, mate.
I like him though.
EDIT:
I just recalled that Curator legitely suggested making all characters cosmetic (so all beardless Wilsons) as the way to bring in variety. These were the days.

[DarkXero]

34 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

I agree that ignoring the elitists when faced with it is the right course of action. However, it would be nice if they had simply no legitimate base for their prejudice. I don't think they're justified mind you, people need to lighten up and let people play who they want, but they do make some points that hit home.

You think they are not justified yet they have a legitimate base for their prejudice?

34 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

But it would cut down on the (unethical) validity of it. I'm not suggesting a panacea here, there will always be a toxicity in a community, however if the angry elitist meta players didn't have an actual leg to stand on it would help.

They have as much validity as you give them.

There's no need to measure success in terms of speedrun times. This is not a grinding game.

You can clear all content with all characters. Whether it's a drag or not, that's an issue that goes beyond characters.

18 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

I'm suggesting we cut out the one leg that they have.

The one leg? Refer to:

22 minutes ago, Mario384 said:

If you take the leg they stand on, they'll build a whole new one and beat you over the head with it regardless.

 

[Scaltra]

1 minute ago, DarkXero said:

You think they are not justified yet they have a legitimate base for their prejudice?

They have as much validity as you give them.

There's no need to measure success in terms of speedrun times. This is not a grinding game.

You can clear all content with all characters. Whether it's a drag or not, that's an issue that goes beyond characters.

The one leg? Refer to:

 

I feel like you know what he means but you are just arguing a point here. Either way, what he means is they have a legitimate claim that the characters suck and you shouldnt play them vs the ones they demand you play. However; criticizing someone for just wanting to play other characters then the "meta" characters is not justified and is rude to even care about something like that and act like you are better then someone because of who you play. 

As for validity I don't believe that is true either, as if they say wes is bad don't play them you scrub or willow is bad don't play them you scrub play this op character instead and play the game the right way...that has some truth to it which gives it validity. It is at least a lot harder to argue the point. He is not saying not to ignore them but he is saying that the character imbalance doesn't help...and that is true it doesn't.

It isn't a measure of success but making it so the characters could all compete on a similar level would be nice, what he is saying is that it would help a little, it obviously wont fix anything but it wouldn't make that toxicity worse. That is not his main point regardless, he is just pointing that out as a possible help to alleviate that mentality. 

Cutting one head off of a hydra makes every one a little more comfortable till it grows back, especially when it is such a big one. Of course things like this will always be an issue, like if fire farms or flash freezing with flowers on fire and fling automatics is cheese/ exploiting the game or the new meta that will be protected by some (also fire farms when they were a thing)

just because a forest is onfire doesn't mean its not a reason to bother throwing a bucket of water on it. None of that is really the main point of this thread though 

Dang, mobile sucks I cant clean that up so it has the quotes formed up nicely with each rebuttal

[Mr.Mulk]

@DarkXero you're missing the point of what I'm saying right now so I'm going to clarify

What I'm suggesting is that the elitists do have a point (whether you think it's petty is up to you) BUT they do have a valid argument, whether we like it or not. However, just because you are right about something does not give you the ethical allowance to insult other people for their decision to play a character who is inherently less efficient. Yet they do, and what I'm suggesting is that if Klei removes that valid argument in its entirely (via buffing the characters in question), it would be a good thing for the community.

[Auth]

20 hours ago, JoeW said:

Actual developer response and logical reasoning DELUXE

Thank you so much, this is exactly what I wanted.

[MondayNight]

3 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

..it's balanced in the sense that it requires setup, preparation, and care in execution..

Burning some ..twigs, grass and petals in inventory requires "setup, preparation, and care in execution"?

I somehow get the feeling we are writing about 2 entirely different sets of players: you are referring to experienced players that know what they're doing and have benign, co-op plans; I'm pointing at vast majority yolo-ing autumn and dying via starvation, night Grue, spider or cat, and most of all at the newbie and noob griefers picking Willow from this lot with one thought in mind alone: to make other people's experience in the server a living nightmare for $hits and giggles. As these griefers happen to die the most in their own fires (oh the sweet karma!) - so yeah, fire immunity will surely aid them in their "endeavor" of burning stuff in a safe way for themselves (this also addresses your "make any points to justify why griefing means willow should be nerfed into oblivion" - because, with fire immunity, newbie and noob griefers can survive longer, thus causing more damage; plus with inventory burning their said potentially-done damage skyrockets).

In mentioned video author ignited wooden planks (1 per inventory slot), that indeed requires a bit of preparation (not nearly something comparable to Wicker's tentacle trap or WX's Ruins dive for 400 hp of gears) - yet the trade-off? 3s to kill Deer (granted is DS deer, 1/2 hp pool). I point this again: fire damage is THE biggest damage dealer per time unit in DS/T. Something like this is not by a margin comparable to Wolf 2x damage while mighty; and fire chews 400 hp in no time. Why nerf such a thing in multiplayer context (having a PvP component as well)? Hmm. Are you honestly asking this?!

 

4 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

I haven't encountered that type of griefing since launch, now most don't even mess with fire, it's too obvious. They focus more on spawn traps, taking valuables and disconnecting, or abusing werebeaver's destroy ability.

Are you playing a lot of official Klei pubs? Or you mainly play groups pubs?

In official Klei servers most griefers are Willows and Wilsons, and most used griefing method is burning - as those pubs have no moderation at all and trolls don't care if what they do is blatantly obvious - there are no repercussions. Here one encounters the bulk of newbie and noob griefers (first autumn) plus the advanced, Clouds-tier, griefers (first winter/spring - because on group pubs these griefers have already been banned).

On the other hand group pubs - with at least a bit of moderation - face more subtle griefing methods (tentacle traps, logging off with valuable resources, wasting resources - par example using all grass from chests to make straw hats given to pigs, etc) and here one encounters mostly so-and-so experienced griefers (with a fair share of newbie and noob trolls, still less than in official pubs).

The "destroying beaver"? Just 2 times I've seen this type in my ~2k h of pub runs (officials and groups alike).

[. . .]

who's willow, what's a woodie

[Mr.Mulk]

53 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

Burning some ..twigs, grass and petals in inventory requires "setup, preparation, and care in execution"?

So how long does twigs, grass, and petals burn for? Not very long, and by the time you've lit enough to actually do any substantial damage it's already turning to ash, so yeah it's not a viable fuel source. Keep in mind for the inventory burn aura to stack each item must be in its own slot, you can't throw a stack of 40 and burn it and expect to get the same damage as if they were in 40 separate slots, it'll only count once. Also, unlike in the video you won't have a Krampus sack and you'll have junk in your inventory because it's an actual survival game. Realistically you're only gonna have a few slots available meaning you have a severely limited inventory while using this perk. That alone can be deadly.

53 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

I somehow get the feeling we are writing about 2 entirely different sets of players: you are referring to experienced players that know what they're doing and have benign, co-op plans; I'm pointing at vast majority yolo-ing autumn and dying via starvation, night Grue, spider or cat, and most of all at the newbie and noob griefers picking Willow from this lot with one thought in mind alone: to make other people's experience in the server a living nightmare for $hits and giggles. As these griefers happen to die the most in their own fires (oh the sweet karma!) - so yeah, fire immunity will surely aid them in their "endeavor" of burning stuff in a safe way for themselves (this also addresses your "make any points to justify why griefing means willow should be nerfed into oblivion" - because, with fire immunity, newbie and noob griefers can survive longer, thus causing more damage; plus with inventory burning their said potentially-done damage skyrockets).

Are you playing a lot of official Klei pubs? Or you mainly play groups pubs?

In official Klei servers most griefers are Willows and Wilsons, and most used griefing method is burning - as those pubs have no moderation at all and trolls don't care if what they do is blatantly obvious - there are no repercussions. Here one encounters the bulk of newbie and noob griefers (first autumn) plus the advanced, Clouds-tier, griefers (first winter/spring - because on group pubs these griefers have already been banned).

On the other hand group pubs - with at least a bit of moderation - face more subtle griefing methods (tentacle traps, logging off with valuable resources, wasting resources - par example using all grass from chests to make straw hats given to pigs, etc) and here one encounters mostly so-and-so experienced griefers (with a fair share of newbie and noob trolls, still less than in official pubs).

The "destroying beaver"? Just 2 times I've seen this type in my ~2k h of pub runs (officials and groups alike).

You keep explaining on about how griefers picking Willow somehow justifies her being nerfed (and by extension the continuation of the nerf), yet you keep giving us examples of griefers post-nerf.

It almost appears as thought the nerf has actually not quelled any griefing at all and therefore Klei should consider removing it.

53 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

In mentioned video author ignited wooden planks (1 per inventory slot), that indeed requires a bit of preparation (not nearly something comparable to Wicker's tentacle trap or WX's Ruins dive for 400 hp of gears) - yet the trade-off? 3s to kill Deer (granted is DS deer, 1/2 hp pool). I point this again: fire damage is THE biggest damage dealer per time unit in DS/T. Something like this is not by a margin comparable to Wolf 2x damage while mighty; and fire chews 400 hp in no time. Why nerf such a thing in multiplayer context (having a PvP component as well)? Hmm. Are you honestly asking this?

I am. Inventory burning would make her viable again in multiplayer, at least on par with the other characters. If you genuinely think this would be game-breaking and ruin the experience then you didn't understand exactly how much preparation it takes for the ability to be used as it was in the video. It's a powerful ability, yeah, but only after the patience of slowly building up to it, and preferably preparing a fireproof arena. Not to mention it's a single shot, it's not like those boards just magically reappear in her inventory after burning, so if you screw it up you're in trouble. You're assuming it'd make her some sort of PVP legend, but as I've said already by the time she saved up enough resources to actually utilize the ability she'd have already been killed by a Wolfgang. And let's not forget the severe inventory slot penalty this places on the player, having to utilize a lot of their slots if they want to do real damage.

Miss your shot during the charge due to that Wolfgang outrunning you with his 25% speed boost? Too bad, guess you have to start over. Now your defenses are down, and you left all your stuff at base in order to free up inventory for the aura.

In fact this ability would make scailmail somewhat more viable in pvp as it could be used as a hard counter to this, and with the stun ability that drops scales it's not that hard to make anymore, especially as a combat character.

 

32 minutes ago, SuperDavid said:

who's willow, what's a woodie

The first question I can answer, but the second you may need to lookup yourself.

Spoiler

 

[MondayNight]

1 hour ago, Mr.Mulk said:

You keep explaining on about how griefers picking Willow somehow justifies her being nerfed (and by extension the continuation of the nerf), yet you keep giving us examples of griefers post-nerf.

It almost appears as thought the nerf has actually not quelled any griefing at all and therefore should be removed.

You have a number of psychopaths with guns; whatever could happen if we give them rocket launchers?!

Is not so much about less people picking Willow for griefing after nerf (I have no clue if that was the case; yet, logically, making something harder should deter some people from doing it), as it's about how much damage one could inflict via this character if arson-griefing is their hobby. At least now a sweet-karma number of newbie and noob griefers die in their own fires, as stated. Immunity will allow them to live longer and do more damage overall. That's my main concern.

The efficacy of inventory burning (as fire-immune Willow) in different scenarios when using it responsible? Debatable.

When using it to troll (non-PvP) is what I underline. And then it doesn't matter if not done with maximum efficiency (picking best burnable material, having a maximum of slots with said material, etc), even at lowest effectiveness will still up the potential damage a griefer could inflict. That's why I for one don't want to see her fire immunity (and, by extension, inventory burning) brought back in multiplayer.

Other buffs (Bernie taunting all nightmare creatures - even shadow monkeys) on her? Sure!

 

Beside that, I repeat, am all for beaver/shadow puppets buffs, and Winona skill-revamp. Cheers!

[Korlie]

4 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

What I'm suggesting is that the elitists do have a point (whether you think it's petty is up to you) BUT they do have a valid argument, whether we like it or not. However, just because you are right about something does not give you the ethical allowance to insult other people for their decision to play a character who is inherently less efficient. Yet they do, and what I'm suggesting is that if Klei removes that valid argument in its entirely (via buffing the characters in question), it would be a good thing for the community.

Elitists will exist for as long as the human race exists, and depending on the factors it probably will continue to live on in undiscovered alien civilizations afterwards anyways. You aren't going to help it by removing one of their columns for judging you, because they have dozens of other columns so no matter what if you aren't playing to their false standards they'll be on you. Even if the characters did get buffed, they still won't match up to the meta so they still will be considered as un-elite.

If you're really having that much of a problem with encountering them, best way to deal with it is to just shut them down straight away. They're used to talking down to people that don't take their behavior seriously or don't talk back to them, so like with any insecure teenager if you actually challenge them they typically shrink away or realize everytime they try to criticize you they get bit.

"I really don't care about your opinion" - "If you don't like how I play then leave" - or any generally aggressive response serves the purpose.

[Scaltra]

22 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

You have a number of psychopaths with guns; whatever could happen if we give them rocket launchers?!

Is not so much about less people picking Willow for griefing after nerf (I have no clue if that was the case; yet, logically, making something harder should deter some people from doing it), as it's about how much damage one could inflict via this character if arson-griefing is their hobby. At least now a sweet-karma number of newbie and noob griefers die in their own fires, as stated. Immunity will allow them to live longer and do more damage overall. That's my main concern.

The efficacy of inventory burning (as fire-immune Willow) in different scenarios when using it responsible? Debatable.

When using it to troll is what I underline. And then it doesn't matter if not done with maximum efficiency (picking best burnable material, having a maximum of slots with said material, etc), even at lowest effectiveness will still up the potential damage a griefer could inflict. That's why I for one don't want to see her fire immunity (and, by extension, inventory burning) brought back in multiplayer.

Other buffs (Bernie taunting all nightmare creatures - even shadow monkeys) on her? Sure!

 

Other then that, I repeat, am all for beaver/shadow puppets buffs, and Winona skill-revamp. Cheers!

It has become pretty evident that greifers must have had some huge impact on games you've played and that is understandable...but just like how you can ignore the elitist people and just not let that define how you play or who you play you can do the same with greifers, you shouldn't let that influence how you think the game should be balanced. 

This means that kleis systems and servers need work not that willow needs another nerf or that willow shouldn't get a buff I just can't agree. 

[Mr.Mulk]

17 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

Is not so much about less people picking Willow for griefing after nerf (I have no clue if that was the case; yet, logically, making something harder should deter some people from doing it), as it's about how much damage one could inflict via this character if arson-griefing is their hobby. At least now a sweet-karma number of newbie and noob griefers die in their own fires, as stated. Immunity will allow them to live longer and do more damage overall. That's my main concern.

I've personally never had a griefer die from their own fire before as Willow, I think you'd have to reach a pretty dumb level to die from fire damage even in her horrifically nerfed state, although I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, mostly because people will do the dumbest stuff.

I think we've reached an impasse to be honest, as I think we have an inherently different view of the impact on griefing that buffing Willow would consist of (which is based on a what-if scenario, I'm sure you see the issue). Personally, I don't think it'd be much worse than it is now, it's already pretty darn bad and the nerf really doesn't appear to be working to me, but perhaps you've just had differing experiences. I've played on a good bit of pubs myself (about 900 hours in pubs specifically), and have seen my fair share of griefers, but in my experience there really isn't a whole lot that can be done about them, and I doubt a Willow buff would exacerbate the issue any further. Well, except host your own server, play with friends, and kick,ban, as well as rollback as necessary.

17 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

You have a number of psychopaths with guns; whatever could happen if we give them rocket launchers?!

I wouldn't say Willow qualifies as "guns" to begin with. Compared to WX, Wolfgang, or Wicker in their current states I find that statement extremely unlikely to be honest.

13 minutes ago, Korlie said:

Elitists will exist for as long as the human race exists, and depending on the factors it probably will continue to live on in undiscovered alien civilizations afterwards anyways. You aren't going to help it by removing one of their columns for judging you, because they have dozens of other columns so no matter what if you aren't playing to their false standards they'll be on you. Even if the characters did get buffed, they still won't match up to the meta so they still will be considered as un-elite.

If you're really having that much of a problem with encountering them, best way to deal with it is to just shut them down straight away. They're used to talking down to people that don't take their behavior seriously or don't talk back to them, so like with any insecure teenager if you actually challenge them they typically shrink away or realize everytime they try to criticize you they get bit.

"I really don't care about your opinion" - "If you don't like how I play then leave" - or any generally aggressive response serves the purpose.

I get the "dozen other columns" argument but it's not supplementing the fact that this column is completely valid, but could be fixed by Klei and thereby remove some of the shade they can throw. Sure its accuracy doesn't justify them being jerks, but just saying "well there's always gonna be jerks so we can't do anything about it so we shouldn't do anything ever" seems like letting them win, to be honest.

[Scaltra]

I feel like the (new main point now that we know klei does care) main point here is getting sidetracked a bit, i don't think Mr's point was that it would really help with that that is just a side hope, it is more about making these characters better so it isn't so true that they do freaking suck.

[Mr.Mulk]

7 minutes ago, Scaltra said:

I feel like the (new main point noe that we know klei does care) main point here is getting sidetracked a bit, i don't think Mr's point was that it would really help with that that is just a side hope, it is more about making these characters better so it isn't so true that they do freaking suck.

This thread has definitely been sidetracked from it's initial course due to people examining different aspects of what I've said in more depth. I'm completely fine with this honestly as long as I feel the general idea of the thread is still well understood, not to mention I think Klei understands what we are saying. Probably the unfortunate truth about this topic however is that it is fairly complex, there's quite a few x-factors that need to be taken into account, which could also explain Klei's hesitant nature in regards to making change. I'm glad however that a civil and healthy conversation as well as debate amongst the members has (and will hopefully continue to) take place, as it's important as a community we discuss these topics, so that we can potentially change the game for the better.