Liquid pipe thermal conductivity test

[Flocc]

// I was wrong. Don't read. Sorry guys!

@Neotuck It depends on what you want to achieve. If you want your temperatures rapidly equalize, use high Thermal conductivity. If you want temperatures to be spike-proof then use higher Heat Capacity. It takes longer to cool down high Heat Capacity but it also requires more heat to raise its temperature. Let's say you have 4 rooms, you cool them with giant loop with cold crude oil, let's say at -10C. After 400 cycles you cooled down all rooms and pipes to exactly -10C. Then someone broke your cooling loop, emptied pipes. Temperature in your rooms will start to raise, but not in room with granite pipes, they will much lower temperature than other pipes for a long time.

[Neotuck]

@Flocc my main goal is to cool steam at 125C to less than 100C.  I'm working on a PW boiler design 

[Flocc]

3 hours ago, Flocc said:

@Neotuck: ok, your experiment is fine.

I just want to question statement i see here and there (in current thread by @Kasuha and @Kuirem and many other threads) claiming that Thermal Conductivity of the pipes doesn't matter since materials used to build them have higher Thermal Conductivity than let's say Oxygen. Look at the pictures: https://imgur.com/a/Cfnw3 https://imgur.com/a/Cfnw3 First one is the beginning of the test - Oxygen everywhere same pressure, same temperature, all sealed in Abyssalite. Every row has pipe made of different material. All pipes temperatures are equal. Second picture, few seconds after test is started BUT before wolframite and tungsten pipes equalized heat with Oxygen. You see different speed/rate of changes. How would that be possible if it didn't take pipes Thermal Conductivity into accout. 

// I was wrong. Don't read. Sorry guys!

I just tested Solid to Solid heat transfer and it's true (it takes lowest thermal conductivity). Tested using Sandstone and Granite against Ice. Granite and Sandstone have same Heat Capacity but different Thermal Conductivity (both still higher than Ice). Same speed of heat transfering for both.

But it's not the case with Solid to Gas (in my experiment Solid = empty pipes). It takes both Thermal Conductivities!

2 hours ago, Neotuck said:

I thought so too which is why I did this experiment and it proved us both wrong

@Neotuck I don't think I am wrong. Look at Abyssalite stats, Heat Capacity 4, does it transfer heat? No (technically Yes, but very very slow..., Thermal Conductivity 0.00001)

2 hours ago, Neotuck said:

@Flocc my main goal is to cool steam at 125C to less than 100C.  I'm working on a PW boiler design 

Just use what turned out to be better in your experiment. /editing...

[Neotuck]

7 minutes ago, Flocc said:

I don't think I am wrong. Look at Abyssalite stats, Heat Capacity 4, does it transfer heat? No (technically Yes, but very very slow..., Thermal Conductivity 0.00001)

When it comes to heat capacity the lower the better as it will have less temp to absorb before it transfers 

[Saturnus]

@Neotuck Use granite sculpture blocks to condense steam. Change the picture frames for tombstones for even better performance. Far superior to any pipe.

Like my old 10kg/s PW distiller. I can't find the post at the moment but it might be in the archives.

With automation and temp shift plates this could probably be made more efficient but it works pretty darn well.

It's design specifically to avoid the heat deletion bug where it is possible.

Note that the PW is preheated by the tepidizer and boiled by the aquatuner. This is pre-automation so this is part of the self-adjusting mechanism that keeps it running at full capacity.

[Flocc]

Yes, you will see "results" faster as. But imagine you had a material with Heat Capacity 0.00001 but Thermal Conductivity 0.00001 would you use it for radiator?

[Neotuck]

Just now, Flocc said:

Yes, you will see "results" faster as. But imagine you had a material with Heat Capacity 0.00001 but Thermal Conductivity 0.00001 would you use it for radiator?

then we need to find balance, something with high thermal conductivity and low heat capacity

5 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Use granite sculpture blocks to condense steam. Far superior to any pipe.

interesting, I'll play around with this idea

[Flocc]

As a medium to transfer heat between cold liquid and hot gas you want to use high Thermal Conductivity and low Heat Capacity.

[Neotuck]

Just now, Flocc said:

As a medium to transfer heat between cold liquid and hot gas you want to use high Thermal Conductivity and low Heat Capacity.

didn't I just say that? lol

[Flocc]

Yes, i feel stupid. I think i proved myself wrong, need to reconsider everything. Can't think anymore for today...

Sorry guys for the mess.

[Saturnus]

14 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

interesting, I'll play around with this idea

I've found the old save file. Note that many things have changed in the game since then so it'll probably not run straight out of the box but this should give you a good idea about how a perfect PW distiller design should be. Back when PW distillation was a thing people did to make large dupe count bases work this was the cream of the crop. There was no more compact, more efficient, or higher throughput designs than this.

Supercharged 10Kgs Distiller.sav

[PhailRaptor]

2 hours ago, Saturnus said:

I can't find the post at the moment but it might be in the archives.

Yep, it's Archived.

 

[Kasuha]

Okay, so...

I made my own experiment. And the result is, as long as you don't make the radiator from abyssalite, the material is irrelevant.

It's all about heat conductivity and since that is capped by the outside/inside media, the equilibrium heat transfer is the same.

My experiment consisted of six straight pipe radiators from sandstone, granite, igneous rock, sedimentary rock, obsidian, and wolframite. 10 kg/s of petroleum at -13.1 C in each with countercurrent of 10 kg/s of petroleum at 26.9 C (tried it with multiple different temperatures, this at least gave me a visible gradient on temp overlay.

Regardless of radiator pipe material, the cold petroleum went from -13.1 C to -9.3 C and the warm petroleum went from 26.9 C to 22.4 C.

I'm attaching the map so you can take a look if you want to.

 

debug_oc.sav

Note that except the relatively short "radiator" part, all pipes are made from abyssalite.

[Yoma_Nosme]

12 hours ago, Kasuha said:

And the result is, as long as you don't make the radiator from abyssalite, the material is irrelevant.

Finally!

[Coolthulhu]

12 hours ago, Kasuha said:

It's all about heat conductivity and since that is capped by the outside/inside media, the equilibrium heat transfer is the same.

You can bypass outside medium cap rather easily, though: embed the radiator pipe in tiles, preferably plastic or copper, then add thermoplates to speed up tile/outside exchange.

[Flocc]

 

13 hours ago, Kasuha said:

It's all about heat conductivity and since that is capped by the outside/inside media, the equilibrium heat transfer is the same.

Well, i knew something was wrong. Look at the Wolframite and Tungsten pipes here: https://imgur.com/a/so1ML 2a and 2b is the moment when temperatures equalized between Tungsten pipe and Oxygen. 

Can you explain this? No cap between those?

Btw. Connected Tempshift Plates not transferring heat between each other in a Vacuum is a bug, right?

[Saturnus]

Yes. All materials are equal. Sedimentary rocks of ONI join the downtrodden materials liberation front today!

 

 

Except all materials are different. Anyone that gets other results should really check their set up more closely.

[Kasuha]

1 hour ago, Coolthulhu said:

You can bypass outside medium cap rather easily, though: embed the radiator pipe in tiles, preferably plastic or copper, then add thermoplates to speed up tile/outside exchange.

That definitely doesn't speed up heat transfer from the pipe contents to the pipe, and heat transfer between the pipe and environment is usually not an issue. I would guess most of it would just add up to the heat capacity of the pipe.

2 hours ago, Yoma_Nosme said:

Finally!

In a honeycomb universe, yes.

[Yoma_Nosme]

13 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

In a honeycomb universe, yes.

Mhhh. Now that i like! Just thinking about it is awesome! Oni might be a 2.5 dimensional hexagonal universe where the plane of perception is tilted

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

I designed my steady state experiment. Here is the idea:

There are two pipes and one diamond plate in a small chamber. The left pipe is always made by obsidian, and the right one is made by different materials. One pipe contains hot liquid, and another contains cold. In the half of the experiments, the left pipes are hot. In another half, the right pipes are hot.

I measure the temperature of the plate to evaluate the heat transfer ability of pipes.

280K≈6.9K   320K≈46.9K   360K≈86.9K

I've run the experiment for ten cycles in triple speed (I avoid to run the experiment in alt+z supper speed because some old threads pointed out that the thermodynamic results are different in supper speed mode.)

After 10 cycles, the temperatures of water don't change much(<0.3C).

Spoiler

OLD ANALYSIS

Here are the results

 (I run another 5 cycles, and the temperatures of the plate change a little from the tenth cycle(<0.5C))

I can't explain these weird results from the view of heat capacity or thermal conductivity. I guess the mass and kind of the gas in the chamber and the kind of liquid in the pipe have effects on the results. 

Though tungsten still show the best heat transfer ability, there is no huge difference among tungsten and other materials.

pipe test.sav

EDIT: A rough summary
When liquid in pipes are colder than surroundings, the heat transfer ability depends on the thermal conductivity of the pipe.
Tungsten>Wolframite>Granite>Sandstone>Igneous rocks=Obsidian

When liquid in pipes are hotter than surroundings, the heat transfer ability depends on the thermal conductivity × heat capacity of the pipe.
Tungsten>Wolframite≈Granite≈Sandstone≈Igneous rocks>Obsidian

Though tungsten still show the best heat transfer ability, there is no huge difference among tungsten and other materials.

 

Results

Spoiler

How I calculate the Heat conduction efficiency

Temperature of the plate=T

When liquid in pipes are colder than surroundings, the Heat conduction efficiency =(86.9-T)/(T-6.9)

When liquid in pipes are hotter than surroundings, the Heat conduction efficiency =(6.9-T)/(T-86.9)

 

[Saturnus]

1 hour ago, R9MX4 said:

*Long post*

  Hide contents

 

This reflects perfectly what @Sevio and my tests in the big water plumbing heat conduction experiment found when running 100s and 100s of cycles on normal x3 speed. No use of ultraspeeds can be allowed as that will seriously influence the results.

Except. Igneous rock specific heat capacity was increased with the release of occupational upgrade and subsequently is bumped from one of the worst materials to a more run of the mill status.

Of all the non-metallic pipe materials granite is the best.

[Kasuha]

1 hour ago, R9MX4 said:

I designed my steady state experiment.

Okay, I reran your experiment and it definitely shows some interesting behavior with more heat transfer from the hot pipe than from the cold pipe. So I returned to my previous experiment and reran it the other way (hot contents of tube, cold material outside). But even that behaved fine, again all temperatures converged on the same value. So I returned to your experiment and changed contents of all small chambers from oxygen to petroleum, 2 kg per tile. And lo and behold, they all held their 320 k temperature and did not budge even though I left it running for several cycles.

There's apparently difference in heat transfer depending on whether the ambient element is gas or liquid. Or maybe it depends on what exactly element it is? Might be it depends on whether there's gas or liquid in the pipe too? I don't know, I guess more experiments are needed.

Your experiment is complicated. You have two pipes, each of them is in contact with a tile of oxygen, then the two tiles of oxygen are in contact with the middle tile of oxygen, and all three oxygen tiles are in contact with the tempshift plate. That's a lot of factors and it makes it harder to figure out where's something going wrong/unexpected way. Plus the tempshift plate is (effectively) 160 kg of diamond, that's a lot of heat capacity to reach equilibrium through oxygen whose heat conductivity is only 0.0024. So it's possible you didn't even reach the equilibrium in the 10 cycles you ran the experiment. But that doesn't change anything on your result that in your experiment, the hot pipe was lending more heat to the system than the cold one.

 

 

[Yoma_Nosme]

Kind of interesting that all, let's say "cold conducting" experiments show less efficiency in conduction compared with the hot one's. Or what am I missing there? Different temp?

 

[Kasuha]

Just now, Yoma_Nosme said:

Kind of interesting that all, let's say "cold conducting" experiments show less efficiency in conduction compared with the hot one's. Or what am I missing there? Different temp?

 

It seems to behave differently for gases and liquids. I suspect it might be part of the "realism hack" devs implemented for heat propagation in gases.

[Yoma_Nosme]

10 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

It seems to behave differently for gases and liquids. I suspect it might be part of the "realism hack" devs implemented for heat propagation in gases.

Ty. I was a minute too late

You mean the way gases travel among them or something different with that?