Lutzkhie Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 this test, is just the simplest way of cooling a room or building, simplest i mean early game solution, mid-game you can switch to tungsten or wolfy provided that you have tons of them and tempshift if you want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travaldofan Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, Neotuck said: the reason I didn't include wolframite is it's rare and better used for other builds I mean Granite is good as wolframite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 17 minutes ago, storm6436 said: Based on my experience, somewhere between 3kg and 4kg -- Though, to be fair, not sure if it's solely due to pressure (ie. go above a static number and *pop*) or if it's traversing a sufficiently high pressure gradient that does it. (ie. going from room A to room B, if the absolute value of the pressure change B-A is above a certain number *POP) 13 minutes ago, Lutzkhie said: well i remember going inside a natgas geyser of 5kg pressure per tile and pop! 13 minutes ago, Yoma_Nosme said: Above 2k I just tested it and they were fine below 4K but once the pressure reached 4K and above their ears popped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travaldofan Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 14 minutes ago, Lutzkhie said: well i remember going inside a natgas geyser of 5kg pressure per tile and pop! If above 4000g they will get Popped eardrum debuff (4001g per tile popped eardrum i tried it in debug mode) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasuha Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Interesting result, but makes sense in retrospect. Thermal conductivity is irrelevant as lower of the two thermal conductivities is always used and I think all available cooling media have thermal conductivity 2 or lower. And lower heat capacity means greater temperature change of the pipe, which then leads to greater temperature gradient and greater heat exchange between the pipe and environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhailRaptor Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I feel like, if you ran this test for a longer period of time, the Granite and Igneous would be far more effective. The higher Capacity of those materials means it takes longer for such a system to get "to temperature". But once they get there, the higher Conductivity will make them work faster. This same thing was tested yesterday (?) with Plastic Tile vs Metal Tile. Metal Tile appeared to be faster, but it was only because the Plastic Tile takes so much longer to cool itself due to it's enormous Capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 9 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said: I feel like, if you ran this test for a longer period of time, the Granite and Igneous would be far more effective. The higher Capacity of those materials means it takes longer for such a system to get "to temperature". But once they get there, the higher Conductivity will make them work faster. This same thing was tested yesterday (?) with Plastic Tile vs Metal Tile. Metal Tile appeared to be faster, but it was only because the Plastic Tile takes so much longer to cool itself due to it's enormous Capacity. Correct. Previous tests run for extended periods have shown exactly that. Granite and in part now igneous rock is far superior. Any test for such thing less than minimum 100 cycle runs should not be trusted to show accurate results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasuha Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 48 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said: But once they get there, the higher Conductivity will make them work faster. As far as I know, their higher conductivity plays no role at all. When heat is exchanged between two things, the lower of the two conductivities is used. That's how heat exchange was implemented at least some time ago when @Risu and @rezecib were looking at it and I don't think devs changed anything about it since then. And all these minerals have higher conductivity than any liquids or gases, so their conductivity does not come into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuirem Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Well it's easy to see in your pictures but Thermal Conductivity don't really matter for pipe for a simple reason : When the game calculate how much heat is transferred it picks the lowest Thermal Conductivity of the two body. Since all Liquid and Gas are inferior to 2 and Minerals/Materials are superior to 2 (except Abyssalite) Granite won't be more effective even though it has a higher Thermal Conductivity. What we see here is just the effect of Heat Capacity, I could be wrong but if you gave time for all the pipe to cool down and only then add gas in all the rooms they should cool down at the same speed. Edit: Looks like I was beaten by a minute by @Kasuha teehee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab1 Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 3 hours ago, Lutzkhie said: we have a winner: *drum roll* sedimentary rock damn there are only a few of them and some are near slime biome so obsidian is 2nd i guess? YAY i win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Pipe is a kind of building. When heat is transferred between building and cell, the thermal conductivities of building and cell are multiplied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuirem Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 But you will still be limited by the heat transfer between the pipe and the content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasuha Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I think we need to run an equilibrium-state experiment to figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Kasuha said: I think we need to run an equilibrium-state experiment to figure it out. @manu_x32 and I have already done extensive tests running over 600 cycles. Tungsten wasn't in the game then but aside from the higher specific heat capacity of igneous rock nothing else has changed. There is massive amounts of heat deletion going on in pipes. Especially using all those that have the "thermally reactive" attribute. Other than that, the material with the highest specific heat capacity is always the best material for heat exchange unless the thermal conductivity is lower than either medium being exchanged from and to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flocc Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 // I was wrong. Don't read. Sorry guys! You guys are saying that Thermal Conductivity doesn't matter because game engine takes lowest from two objects. Can you explain me this simple test then: Build 8 chambers isolated with Abyssalite. Make them equal and fill with hot (>20C, higher = easier and faster observations) oxygen so every chamber has same oxygen mass and same temperature. Then in each chamber place empty pipes made from different material. Notice that all pipes will have same start temperature = 20C. Begin simulation and observe... Oxygens Thermal Conductivity is of course lower than any other material you can make pipe from (except Abyssalite ofc). You will notice that temperatures will change differently (speed) for every pipe. Of course higher Thermal Conductivity, faster temperature will stabilize in each chamber. But final stabilized temperatures will be different because of different Heat Capacity of each material. Higher Heat Capacity material pipe is made from, lower temperature in chamber after final stabilization (it will be reversed if we take starting gas with lower temperature than starting temperature of the pipes = 20C). Are gases and liquids treated as objects? Maybe the rule "take lowest Thermal Conductivity" only applies between solid objects? Like tile to tile or tile to pipe inside it. Maybe I am terribly wrong. btw. Why Tempshift Plates don't transfer heat between each other in Vacuum? Apologize for my English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasuha Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 37 minutes ago, Saturnus said: There is massive amounts of heat deletion going on in pipes. I don't remember any heat deletion from my own radiator efficiency tests. There was just some confusion about the numbers until I realized that pipes just like any other buildings go into heat exchange with only 20% of their mass. The only problem was that heat transfer between the pipe and its contents was extremely slow. But these tests are quite old now so I guess I'll do some when I get back to my PC. If there really is any heat deletion then I guess something has changed since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 @Kasuha Use two pumps. One for a 90C source and one for a 10C source. Use valves to control the flow of each. Merge them into a single pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasuha Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, Saturnus said: @Kasuha Use two pumps. One for a 90C source and one for a 10C source. Use valves to control the flow of each. Merge them into a single pipe. It's not related to effectiveness of radiators but also, I remember this bug fixed long ago. I'll check if it was reintroduced then, but there's quite a lot of various temperature liquid/gas mixing in my colony and I certainly didn't notice anything suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 55 minutes ago, Kasuha said: I don't remember any heat deletion from my own radiator efficiency tests. There was just some confusion about the numbers until I realized that pipes just like any other buildings go into heat exchange with only 20% of their mass. The only problem was that heat transfer between the pipe and its contents was extremely slow. But these tests are quite old now so I guess I'll do some when I get back to my PC. If there really is any heat deletion then I guess something has changed since then. I encountered heat deletion when I tried the same experiment with wolframite and tungsten. The default temp of crude oil is -35C yet somehow the temp in the pipes dropped below -40C and the oil started to freeze and brake the pipes. This happened in the chambers with the O2 with default temp at 47C so I have no idea how the oil got so cold 1 hour ago, Flocc said: You guys are saying that Thermal Conductivity doesn't matter because game engine takes lowest from two objects. Can you explain me this simple test then: Build 8 chambers isolated with Abyssalite. Make them equal and fill with hot (>20C, higher = easier and faster observations) oxygen so every chamber has same oxygen mass and same temperature. Then in each chamber place empty pipes made from different material. Notice that all pipes will have same start temperature = 20C. Begin simulation and observe... Oxygens Thermal Conductivity is of course lower than any other material you can make pipe from (except Abyssalite ofc). You will notice that temperatures will change differently (speed) for every pipe. Of course higher Thermal Conductivity, faster temperature will stabilize in each chamber. But final stabilized temperatures will be different because of different Heat Capacity of each material. Higher Heat Capacity material pipe is made from, lower temperature in chamber after final stabilization (it will be reversed if we take starting gas with lower temperature than starting temperature of the pipes = 20C). Are gases and liquids treated as objects? Maybe the rule "take lowest Thermal Conductivity" only applies between solid objects? Like tile to tile or tile to pipe inside it. Maybe I am terribly wrong. btw. Why Tempshift Plates don't transfer heat between each other in Vacuum? Apologize for my English. other than using 4 chambers, that's exactly what I did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flocc Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 // I was wrong. Don't read. Sorry guys! Not really, i see crude oil going through your pipes. By the time it gets there chambers and pipes will have different temperatures already. Just remove pumps and leave empty pipes (https://imgur.com/a/U6GVs). Do everything while paused so heat doesn't transfer. It doesn't matter that pipes are empty. If it was true that game was taking lowest Thermal Conductivity from between pipe and gas(water) then we would see exactly same changes in all chambers (Oxygens Thermal Conductivity is lowest), only difference would be time when changes would have stopped (heat equality) because of Heat Capacity of different materials pipes are made from while all started from 20C -> so different temperatures at the end. Stop saying that Thermal Conductivity doesn't matter when it's coming to pipes against gases/liquids because it takes lowest. Prove me wrong - maybe i understand and interpret it all wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, Flocc said: Not really, i see crude oil going through your pipes. By the time it gets there chambers and pipes will have different temperatures already. Just remove pumps and leave empty pipes (https://imgur.com/a/U6GVs). Do everything while paused so heat doesn't transfer. It doesn't matter that pipes are empty. If it was true that game was taking lowest Thermal Conductivity from between pipe and gas(water) then we would see exactly same changes in all chambers (Oxygens Thermal Conductivity is lowest), only difference would be time when changes would have stopped (heat equality) because of Heat Capacity of different materials pipes are made from while all started from 20C. Prove me wrong. the pipes were empty when I started, didn't turn on the pumps until all chambers reached same temperature both pipes and O2 (look at the second picture) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flocc Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 // I was wrong. Don't read. Sorry guys! @Neotuck: ok, your experiment is fine. I just want to question statement i see here and there (in current thread by @Kasuha and @Kuirem and many other threads) claiming that Thermal Conductivity of the pipes doesn't matter since materials used to build them have higher Thermal Conductivity than let's say Oxygen. Look at the pictures: https://imgur.com/a/Cfnw3 https://imgur.com/a/Cfnw3 First one is the beginning of the test - Oxygen everywhere same pressure, same temperature, all sealed in Abyssalite. Every row has pipe made of different material. All pipes temperatures are equal. Second picture, few seconds after test is started BUT before wolframite and tungsten pipes equalized heat with Oxygen. You see different speed/rate of changes. How would that be possible if it didn't take pipes Thermal Conductivity into accout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Flocc said: @Neotuck: ok, your experiment is fine. I just want to question statement i see here and there (in current thread by @Kasuha and @Kuirem and many other threads) claiming that Thermal Conductivity of the pipes doesn't matter since materials used to build them have higher Thermal Conductivity than let's say Oxygen. Look at the pictures: https://imgur.com/a/Cfnw3 https://imgur.com/a/Cfnw3 First one is the beginning of the test - Oxygen everywhere same pressure, same temperature, all sealed in Abyssalite. Every row has pipe made of different material. All pipes temperatures are equal. Second picture, few seconds after test is started but before wolframite and tungsten pipes equalized heat with Oxygen. You see different speed/rate of changes. How would that be possible if it didn't take pipes Thermal Conductivity into accout. Heat capacity plays a bigger roll in heat transfer than thermal conductivity. of the 4 materials used in my experiment granite had the highest thermal conductivity yet it was slower compared to sedimentary rock and obsidian who's heat capacity is lower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flocc Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 // I was wrong. Don't read. Sorry guys! Heat capacity has nothing to do with transfering heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, Flocc said: Heat capacity has nothing to do with transfering heat. I thought so too which is why I did this experiment and it proved us both wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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