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These forums are becoming unbearable...


Lifegrow

Voting system on threads ?  

40 members have voted

  1. 1. Would it be great to have a up/down voting system for threads?

    • Yes
      6
    • No
      19
    • It doesn't bother me
      15


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Sorry if this is in the wrong section - however i'm not entirely sure whom this should be addressed to.

Is there any chance that some form of up/down vote system can be implemented to these forums?

As an avid ONI follower, I frequent these forums daily and have for some time - however due to the nature of early access, and the continued development of the game (paired with a frequent resurgence of re-visiting players, new players, and just plain old rusty players) the forums are often inundated with repetitive, nonsensical, unhelpful (and nearly always previously answered) posts.

All this acts to do is "swamp" the forums with the same old crap - whilst ultimately pushing genuinely interesting builds into the vacuous obscurity that is the "search function" :D 

I love these forums, but of late there has been a distinct surge in "forum spammers" - who seem to want to do nothing more than massage their ever swelling post count, or "p-peen" (as I've just decided it shall be known) whereby they voice their (often incorrect) information wherever available. This leads to crappy bumped trash threads existing for months, whilst genuinely clever contributions/developments - even Klei threads are just washed away in the tide of bullsh.... well.... you get the idea.

Sorry if this in any way sounds forceful or aggressive, however as someone who genuinely refers people to these forums on a daily basis - i'm starting to feel embarrassed by some of the content on here.

Again, this is directed solely at the ONI General section, so please point me in the right direction if this is mis-placed.

Much love as ever. 

-Life

 

 

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I always find myself looking at polls going, "Can I get a maybe (or some other) option?"

The problem, as ever, with systems designed to improve forums is that they, too, can be abused. In a perfect world ...

I do, however, agree that it can be frustrating or discouraging to have a forum cluttered with the same topics over and over and over again. And it can be difficult to locate some of the incredibly helpful information that exists here. As a recent example, I think the whole discussion about the jobs/priority system probably had at least 10 different threads within the span of several days.

It would be nice if such threads were redirected or consolidated into "mega" threads on major topics. I think this section of the forums could perhaps do with some sub-topic organization, but alas, that's another discussion entirely.

I'm rambling now :p

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2 minutes ago, Keyimin said:

I always find myself looking at polls going, "Can I get a maybe (or some other) option?"

The problem, as ever, with systems designed to improve forums is that they, too, can be abused. In a perfect world ...

I do, however, agree that it can be frustrating or discouraging to have a forum cluttered with the same topics over and over and over again. And it can be difficult to locate some of the incredibly helpful information that exists here. As a recent example, I think the whole discussion about the jobs/priority system probably had at least 10 different threads within the span of several days.

It would be nice if such threads were redirected or consolidated into "mega" threads on major topics. I think this section of the forums could perhaps do with some sub-topic organization, but alas, that's another discussion entirely.

I'm rambling now :p

I totally agree with you.

I think a simple solution however could be something like an "upscoring" system, or maybe a "vote to sticky/pin" kind of feature.

Sadly anything can be abused by vermin, this is the internet - but that's what moderators are for I guess. In the interest of making the forums functional and helpful again, something needs to change.

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If such a solution were necessary (which I do not believe it is), it would be wiser to create a dedicated "help" section, separate from General Discussion.

I would also like to see a "Blueprint" section, where people could share their builds and compare to others, ask for help debugging complex systems, etc.  Would also be a way for Klei to keep better tabs on what people are using and abusing to make systems run, so we don't have issues like fixing the Tepidizer bug without implementing a device that allows the player to make high temps that are required to run the new Steam Turbine.

The problem with upvote/downvote systems is that they are a binary metric that is used in a very non-binary manner.  What exactly does a plus actually mean?  That you agree with the topic?  Or that you liked the jokes in it?  Or simply that you want to see that discussion continue?  What does a minus mean?  That you didn't agree with the topic?  That you think it doesn't belong where it is?  That you simply don't like the person posting the topic?

You can look at pretty much any online forum nowadays that does have such a system.  They tend to have some pretty powerful hivemind echo chamber behavior that has a really low signal to noise ratio.  Not a lot of signal, and a whole lot of noise.

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There already is upvoting. Add a comment to a thread, it gets sorted at the top of the list. At least for me. As long as there is interest in the topic, it stays visible.

And I'm against downvoting. It's a plague. Downvoting is a great way to spread poison around. It may have some original honest use but people often enough just use it as a tool of oppression, a tool of revenge. Write something that somebody doesn't like, and that person will go and downvote anything you posted as far as he can reach regardless what it was just to show you he has power over you. If your ideas go over and beyond the groupthink of the crowd, you'll get beaten by it.

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52 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

The problem with upvote/downvote systems is that they are a binary metric that is used in a very non-binary manner.  What exactly does a plus actually mean?  That you agree with the topic?  Or that you liked the jokes in it?  Or simply that you want to see that discussion continue?  What does a minus mean?  That you didn't agree with the topic?  That you think it doesn't belong where it is?  That you simply don't like the person posting the topic?

You can look at pretty much any online forum nowadays that does have such a system.  They tend to have some pretty powerful hivemind echo chamber behavior that has a really low signal to noise ratio.  Not a lot of signal, and a whole lot of noise.

I fully understand that - and in some ways I agree, however i'd also argue that it's often caused by poor moderation in most cases. This is a small game-related forum, with regular contributors and a mostly mature audience. Some swift moderation, and I could see it working fine. However, I did also have this in mind - which is why I suggested something a little different, maybe a way of sickying threads as a community via votes - or something like that. Maybe if a thread received 20 reactions in a few days it could be stickied with a decay function. That way if something interesting and genuinely widely appreciated comes out - it would remain in the upper echelons for some time, as it was repeatedly bumped.

21 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

There already is upvoting. Add a comment to a thread, it gets sorted at the top of the list. At least for me. As long as there is interest in the topic, it stays visible.

"Interest" is relative surely - someone expressing interest in misinformation because they don't know any better and bumping a thread full of nonsense above a similar thread with in depth facts doesn't strike me as upvoting - just the blind leading the blind - which leads to further threads about the nonsense they originally read where they were initially misinformed :p 

 

21 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

And I'm against downvoting. It's a plague. Downvoting is a great way to spread poison around. It may have some original honest use but people often enough just use it as a tool of oppression, a tool of revenge. Write something that somebody doesn't like, and that person will go and downvote anything you posted as far as he can reach regardless what it was just to show you he has power over you. If your ideas go over and beyond the groupthink of the crowd, you'll get beaten by it.

I agree, this can often have negative implications too - however if votes weren't anonymous like they are on most other forums (similar to the reactions being visible) then I think the "hate downers" would be less of an issue.

Meh, I dunno - I can see by the first few votes that most people don't seem to mind - but when I see newcomers to the forums who (naming no names) have an average post count of 18 posts per day, but an average word count of like... 4.... it makes me wonder what can be done to stop the "post count massaging crap" that I think is my real issue here.

Not disagreeing with either of you truth be told - I just fear the only solution is to just not bother coming to the forums any more, which I know is the mindset of quite a few of the old regulars nowadays. It's a shame.

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EDIT: I forgot to answer your question haha. No I'am totally against downvoting out of the same reason @Kasuha mentioned. I really dig the format here. The up/downote system works well for content aggregation but not for discussions. We still have the convenient "Like" and "Thanks" buttons to show appreciation and to avoid making posts that are just "Thank you!" or something like that.

From my perspective there are three categories of posts that kind of repeat themselves over and over and kind of clutter up discussions:

1. Help me with... water or air cooling / pure water running out / slimelung or food poisoning / this piping problem. These posts are genuine newbie QAs. Me and many others actually do like answering them, because they are important for this community and I learned *a lot* about the game through discussions like this through other players, but they dominate the whole board.

2. Here is my totally generic build. These are kind of cute and not that common, but they are regular. The only issue I see here is when people come with this weird expectation, that their build is super genious and should be praised by everyone. I've seen many threads, where the some of the most knowledgeable nerds will instantly point out inefficiencies or straight up better solutions, which then makes OP mad. This is super weird. Sharing builds should be a kind of no-ego thing, where it is about finding wrong assumptions or other/better ways of doing things.  If people want to share something they made, they should always assume that other people did as well and better.

3. The whole exploit/debug mode/cheat discussions. Whenever someone posts a build or talks about a solution that is actually very cool but uses some kind of exploit, there are almost always the cheat police ready to defend the integrity of the game. I personally find this boring because ONI is a non-competitive sandboxy simulation game. There is no reason to be so god damn serious about it.

For 1 I don't think that a sticky thread for help posts is a very useful thing because the kind of people who don't use search are most likely also ignoring sticky threads. What we actually need is a whole new subforum that is about help threads.

For 2 I think we don't need to do anything. Posts that try to brag about generic builds w/o follow up questions or anything like that often just get ignored, which is the right way I think.

I feel like 3 is kind of hard to solve. The cheat police is watching...

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8 minutes ago, clickrush said:

1. Help me with... water or air cooling / pure water running out / slimelung or food poisoning / this piping problem. These posts are genuine newbie QAs. Me and many others actually do like answering them, because they are important for this community and I learned *a lot* about the game through discussions like this through other players, but they dominate the whole board.

Agreed, there's really not a lot you can do about these, unless you restructure the boards to include a dedicated "help me" section.  And most likely, such a section will end up being under-used, because General Discussion is right there.  And there's really nothing about these threads that make them "wrong" for General Discussion.

10 minutes ago, clickrush said:

2. Here is my totally generic build. These are kind of cute and not that common, but they are regular. The only issue I see here is when people come with this weird expectation, that their build is super genious and should be praised by everyone. I've seen many threads, where the some of the most knowledgeable nerds will instantly point out inefficiencies or straight up better solutions, which then makes OP mad. This is super weird. Sharing builds should be a kind of no-ego thing, where it is about finding wrong assumptions or other/better ways of doing things.  If people want to share something they made, they should always assume that other people did as well and better.

I think I've only seen the one example of that.  Lots of generic builds, but only 1 of them did OP get upset by the comments.  That said, such problems would be easily solved by, as I mentioned previous, a "blueprints" board, all about people's favored systems, how they work, and discussion about them on how they might be improved or why a thing is done a certain way.

12 minutes ago, clickrush said:

3. The whole exploit/debug mode/cheat discussions. Whenever someone posts a build or talks about a solution that is actually very cool but uses some kind of exploit, there are almost always the cheat police ready to defend the integrity of the game. I personally find this boring because ONI is a non-competitive sandboxy simulation game. There is no reason to be so god damn serious about it.

Also agreed, it's hard to solve the problems associated with this.  Using and abusing exploits is a difficult subject.  As evidenced by the fixing of the Tepidizer bug, they create gameplay dependencies that, when fixed, result in a lot of people's systems losing functionality, or being straight up useless.  But discussing exploits and bugs also ensures the devs are aware of them, and are able to decide whether to fix them or not.  There are examples in other games where an unexpected behavior due to a bug was embraced by the players, and later endorsed by the developer and other changes were made to facilitate it, resulting in a new feature entirely.  Each one needs to be evaluated individually, rather than making a blanket decision and that being the end of it.

Debug mode is a different beast altogether, though.  I don't see a problem with people using it, but it's one of those things where you need to disclose that you used it or not when bringing up a system you have built.  Because there are some builds that are actually impossible without debug mode.  Whether that goes against any personal morals or not isn't really an issue when it comes to forum architecture.  As long as any discussion about debug mode doesn't derail any threads, it shouldn't be a problem.  If it becomes one, report the user(s) and carry on.

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I think this post represents a bigger problem in the community. It is not all friendly to new players. Every time I come to the forums there is a someone complaining about the questions, or the builds that have been done before, or generally lamenting that new players don't know things that seem obvious to someone who has played for years. I find it a much greater problem that people like Lifegrow would have Klei implement a system that actually would punish people for being new and not knowing things. 

I get how, to a senior member who has visited the forums and knows every in and out of every nook and cranny of ONI, the billionth question about bristle blossom farming could be annoying, but that's part of the system. No one asking that question knows its been answered long before they bought the game, and to hold that against them (as some might) makes for an awful community for new players to try and join. 

 

I actually agree a lot with Clickrush on most things except 2. Like for people who haven't been around long and don't know what they're doing, that build they're sharing may be like discovering the world is round. They're sharing it because they think it's cool, useful, or maybe they're just proud of their hard work. However, as soon as they post it, they are immediately attacked by comments about how A) Its actually not that great, B) someone did it better before the poster owned the game, or C) its common knowledge on the forums they just joined. Like it doesn't matter whether Newton or Leibniz discovered calculus first or if someone discovers it later without knowing it's been discovered, to the discoverer a lot of time and effort went into it and they're happy with it. Unless someone is asking for feedback, the immediate answer should not be to crap on someone's build. 

 

For me personally, the problem with this thread is backwards. I've played off and on for a while but have little knowledge of deep strategy and obscure builds. So I am certainly well within the newer player section. And I only came back to the forums because of the update. And to me personally it seems like there are a lot of people trying to get questions answered or share their dewy-eyed builds with their peers, and there is a subset of the senior community that responds to these new players with snobbishness and hostility. Or the much milder case of unintelligible technobabble jargon that no noob could possibly understand. 

 

So, that's my take on it. Boils down to: This forum is not just for senior members, please don't treat it as such. (PS: Be kind to noobs).  

But I'm not really posting to rail on people, though I guess I did go on a bit of a rant there, but to talk solutions. I think there are several ways to improve the situation for all people involved. 

1) Help Section: Phailraptor had a good idea here. Lots of the issues seem to be tied into questions and discussion related to misunderstandings of just things people haven't learned yet. Whats more it solves the issue of players posting their builds and not really wanting help for them. Instead they can post them in:

2) Build Section: Just a place for people to put the cool thing they built. Separate from the help section in that other's aren't supposed to critique it. Hopefully rich in cool builds, and sort of seems like what Lifegrow wants the whole forums to be :p

3) Lounge/Discussion Section: A place for everything else. Things like "Which doop is coolest?" and all sorts of other things that don't fit elsewhere. A miscellaneous section basically. 

 

Basically it seems like a lot of the issues could be fixed by structuring it similarly to the Dwarf Fortress Forums system, lots of categories and sub-categories so that people can find what they're looking for, and don't have to go through things they don't. That seems, at least from my perspective, that doing so would fix a lot of what Lifegrow thinks is the problem and what I think is the problem. A win win, hopefully. 

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59 minutes ago, Roboson said:

I find it a much greater problem that people like Lifegrow would have Klei implement a system that actually would punish people for being new and not knowing things. 

I get how, to a senior member who has visited the forums and knows every in and out of every nook and cranny of ONI, the billionth question about bristle blossom farming could be annoying, but that's part of the system. No one asking that question knows its been answered long before they bought the game, and to hold that against them (as some might) makes for an awful community for new players to try and join. 

Are you kidding me ?

The entire reason for me asking for this is to benefit new players to the game - and new users of the forums. So that they can have a quick and easy list of some incredibly helpful threads that they can reference to learn the game... Those already in the know don't need these things...

@RobosonI literally go out of my way to hop into game and post screenies, build mock-up designs for new players, and reply to many basic questions on a daily basis, so I think you may have mistaken my point entirely. I welcome every bit of growth this community has - I've streamed maybe 1600 hours of this game since release - new blood is incredibly important to me, it keeps the game alive.

This is not a thread about me being elitist - it's a thread that's aimed at keeping helpful, game relevant threads visible - so that players can find the answers/tips they want, without needing to make yet another pointless thread.

 

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That's not at all

14 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

As an avid ONI follower, I frequent these forums daily and have for some time - however due to the nature of early access, and the continued development of the game (paired with a frequent resurgence of re-visiting players, new players, and just plain old rusty players) the forums are often inundated with repetitive, nonsensical, unhelpful (and nearly always previously answered) posts.

Yeah, that is not at all how it sounds in your opening. Perhaps you came across differently in the heat of writing it, but it sure sounds like "This is the millionth time I've answered this, Klei get rid of these noobs." 

So no not kidding you. It comes across as if you're blaming the new players for the repetitive, nonsensical, unhelpful and nearly always answered posts. Which is a highly unfair thing to do. It's not the noob's fault that they're a noob. They don't know the game, and they definately don't know the forums. Especially that their perhaps first thread is pissing off "the regulars" because its about something they answered a million times before. 

And if that's not what you actually meant, then no harm no foul. A help section, as proposed by Phailraptor would still solve the issue regardless of who is the cause of the problem and would serve to improve the forums. 

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Well quoting a small segment of the post without the further explanation does indeed make it sound like a headhunt for noobs, but I do go on to say :

14 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

All this acts to do is "swamp" the forums with the same old crap - whilst ultimately pushing genuinely interesting builds into the vacuous obscurity that is the "search function" :D 

I love these forums, but of late there has been a distinct surge in "forum spammers" - who seem to want to do nothing more than massage their ever swelling post count, or "p-peen" (as I've just decided it shall be known) whereby they voice their (often incorrect) information wherever available. This leads to crappy bumped trash threads existing for months, whilst genuinely clever contributions/developments - even Klei threads are just washed away in the tide of bullsh.... well.... you get the idea.

Sorry if this in any way sounds forceful or aggressive, however as someone who genuinely refers people to these forums on a daily basis - i'm starting to feel embarrassed by some of the content on here.

Here i'm pointing out that the real issue is the fact that useful posts are spammed into "vacuous obscurity", which is obviously aimed at benefiting new players. It certainly doesn't benefit the veteran/old/ancient/"pros" here to have stickied threads - they know this stuff already.

This is purely to benefit new users, and avoid repeat posts.

I'm not sure why this has been lost in the discussion...

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Even in the continued section it still sounds like you're after noobs. I quoted you for brevity, not for a misdirect. 

 

It certainly doesn't seem like making it harder for noobs to post help threads is for their benefit. The reason there are many threads is because there are new users and returning users. Making it so their threads are down voted to oblivion so "genuinely clever" submissions are on top would make it impossible for them to get the help they need. 

 

Moving help threads and other non-ground breaking threads off the front does not help noobs. It just makes it harder for them to get help. 

Like I don't disagree that having a place for builds and guide is a good solution. In fact that's what I'm suggesting. I do disagree that giving the community the power to punish people for making personalized help threads is a terrible terrible idea. 

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4 hours ago, Roboson said:

Even in the continued section it still sounds like you're after noobs. I quoted you for brevity, not for a misdirect. 

It certainly doesn't seem like making it harder for noobs to post help threads is for their benefit. The reason there are many threads is because there are new users and returning users. Making it so their threads are down voted to oblivion so "genuinely clever" submissions are on top would make it impossible for them to get the help they need. 

Moving help threads and other non-ground breaking threads off the front does not help noobs. It just makes it harder for them to get help. 

Like I don't disagree that having a place for builds and guide is a good solution. In fact that's what I'm suggesting. I do disagree that giving the community the power to punish people for making personalized help threads is a terrible terrible idea. 

Sorry, but you're attacking this from the wrong angle - at no point have I said that within those "top stickied threads" there shouldn't be ones for :

  • "A guide to basic wiring"
  • "A guide for easy electrolyzers"
  • "Tips and tricks for dealing with heat" 

etc etc etc.

Those 3 threads would cover 50% of the repeat posts, and they would remain there. However other interesting current designs that people come up with that actually break the mould and change how people do things - they'd be there too...

As it stands currently - neither of those things happen.

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16 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

Sorry, but you're attacking this from the wrong angle - at no point have I said that within those "top stickied threads" there shouldn't be ones for :

  • "A guide to basic wiring"
  • "A guide for easy electrolyzers"
  • "Tips and tricks for dealing with heat" 

etc etc etc.

Those 3 threads would cover 50% of the repeat posts, and they would remain there. However other interesting current designs that people come up with that actually break the mould and change how people do things - they'd be there too...

As it stands currently - neither of those things happen.

I totally understand what you're saying, and if people worked that way, it would be great.  But I think you and I both know what would actually happen.  As someone with previous experience on the internet, I will only read a Sticky if it is something that directly and specifically is what I'm looking for.  Sure, I'll glance at all their titles to see if something important might be there, but 90% of the time it's not for me.  Most "noob tier" Stickies on sites are simply too simple for the kinds of issues I'd look for a resolution for.

Often, if I've gone looking for a specific answer to a specific question, and I've found a thread that looks like what I need.  I'll then spend 5 minutes reading the post, and 20 going through the thread, and be no closer to actually getting what I needed.  Just looking at your example titles, Wiring and Electrolyzers will absolutely have that problem.  They will cover all the general issues people have with those systems, but anything even slightly more advanced than that will be absent.  This will in turn result in people who haven't had their question answered making a thread about it.  Someone else will not read their thread carefully, and link-drop the Stickied thread.  This will cause a lot of other people consider the question answered, and not respond to the thread.  This will frustrate the person looking for help, because they've already read that thread and gotten nowhere, and will state such in reply.  Then a couple of people will grumpily respond about how they must not want help after all.

In the end you'd just create this weird void between the total noobs who don't know what a Deoxidizer does, and the pros who are torture-testing their advanced builds, with a lot of people in the middle with no where to go to learn.

And while it's not intended, it can also help fuel what will later become elitism.  It is not elitism itself, but rather the fuel source for it.

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Honestly I think you're attacking it from the wrong angle. 

Like you're assuming people, who don't know some of the basics of the game, will go through the highest upvoted threads for answers to their specific question. One that they don't know you've answered over a million times. 

It's far more likely they'll post a screenshot and say "what's wrong with my X" or just ask "hey how do I X?" And at that point you have the new thread anyhow. 

So what happens then, is either A) Instead of getting real advice and help, they just get told to go read an all size fits all tips and tricks novel. Or B) they get their help just the way they do now and the "problem" isn't fixed. Or, even worse, C) the thread just gets down voted without answer because up/down voting systems give an easy way to get question threads out of the way so "genuinely clever" threads will be at the forefront. 

 

Preferential treatment, and a system which allows and encourages it, is going to cause problems and further increase the unfriendly environment that this forum occasionally has. 

Simply sectioning things into categories so people can find what they're looking for is a real solution, and doesn't create new problems. 

 

Ninja'd by the more eloquent Phailraptor. Agreed, just agreed.  

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Noob here. Proof? I literally may have just posted a full bug report when it was actually just my screen stuck in a dark part of the map.

Anyway, part of what makes a community feel like a community is the ability to contribute as well as to get back.

I get that for "avid ONI followers", it can be frustrating to feel like you need to "sift through" all the content to find topics that are new to you, but what you're describing is a forum that's most useful and interesting to anyone with hundreds of hours of experience...  in a game that hasn't even really been released. I do think the forum could be better organized, for newcomers and experienced players alike, but I'm wary of upvote/downvote systems and anything that begins to entrench "influence", especially in a community that's so new.

If a new player is subject to a "thou shalt not repeat any post" expectation from the get-go (and the resultant downvotes if they don't), then as the folks before mentioned, they'll be relegated to reading the archives, which is a very static, boring experience. I know a lot of forums are pretty inaccessible because there's a huge onus on any new person to basically search and read through the entire forum before they feel like they can contribute anything, and that's a pretty solid obstacle limiting a community's growth (and thereby longevity; if they're not growing, they're usually dying).

I remember first joining reddit, and I couldn't intuitively navigate the subreddits very well, and forum rule-speak wasn't intuitive to me yet. I'd joined because I wanted to talk about a tech thing that had happened at my workplace, and I finally found a sub that referred to that topic. There was one sub that was "only for the sharing of stories related to this topic and not for the actual discussion of the topic", but it was phrased a little weirdly, something like "only past events may be posted". The result was my first hesitant post seeking discussion to that sub was flagged and removed, and my account was banned from that sub until I talked to a mod. So ended my short jaunt into that sub :D

Reddit will continue to exist because it's literally just whatever's on people's minds spilling all over the place, but the community around a game can easily die away, so just be careful when you're setting "controls" on new community participants, and remember that the contributing part of it, especially for new people, is important too.

 

P.S.: As a cautionary note...

21 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

As an avid ONI follower, I frequent these forums daily and have for some time - however due to the nature of early access, and the continued development of the game (paired with a frequent resurgence of re-visiting players, new players, and just plain old rusty players) the forums are often inundated with repetitive, nonsensical, unhelpful (and nearly always previously answered) posts.

When a thesis statement like that is coupled with a thread title like "These forums are becoming unbearable...", it definitely contributes to a sense of...  inaccessibility. I know you also focus on forum spammers and were mostly just wanting the forums to be organized in a way that can work better, but just be careful how something like that would come across to new folks who're showing up looking to excitedly share their own aha moments, like "Look! I made the water fall from A to B through these fancy mesh tiles I finally researched!"

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Honestly this thread was started in the hope that the forums will be streamlined a little better to reduce the repeat posts (i.e. helping players find content without the need to repeat post) whilst also allowing people to showcase their builds. That is after all the...as far as I can tell... sole purpose of a "General Discussion" section.

We already have a "suggestions and feedback" section - yet we get 10 messages a day stating "I THINK WE NEED DUPE POWERED NANO SUITS" or "WHY THIS GAME GOT NO NUKES!?" or some similar crap.

We also have a very detailed "bug tracker" section, maintained and contributed to by an ever vigilant force of bug finders - however does it reduce the amount of "I'VE CREATED THE BEST COOLER IN THE WORLD" threads, all of which use the same single exploit? No. No is the answer. We get 2-3 a day.

Point being, even if you create more concise sections within which people can post their threads - you're relying on the inert laziness of man to bother their arses to post correctly :D 

I feel like some people are arguing for the sake of it - rather than to further the discussion. I didn't say a voting system was the definitive answer - I simply asked that maybe :

22 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

some form of up/down vote system can be implemented to these forums?

I honestly don't know what form that solution takes - otherwise i'd have come here with the solution in hand, and beaten you all with it until it was implemented... Maybe the "post count e-peen enlarger" system is my main gripe, and the resultant spam that comes with that - I honestly do not know.

What I do know is that regardless of what you all say, the forums are far too often subject to people posting just for the sake of it - or "post massaging" as I said previously. That's fine if you want to push all of your would-be helpers away - I know that I for one really lose the will to struggle through the myriad of "they couldn't be bothered to google the answer themselves" style threads...

Again, some of you don't know me - that's fine, you're probably better off :p . I'm a streamer that spends most of my time either cursing at my inferior chimp brain, making my dupes chew yellow oxygen - or taking the time out of whatever i'm doing to answer questions from new players. I love the vast majority of this community, however political correctness/sensitivity crap aside - there are some massive tools on here that go out of their way to derail threads, argue without insight or state mistruths as fact. None of which are "noob friendly" behaviours might I add.

Now I started this thread in the hopes of improving the ONI section of these forums, not making them less accessible. ONI more than any other Klei game has room for debate and conceptual thinking - of that i'm sure we can agree, as such it would be ideal if maybe we did have better sections for different discussions, or maybe we just need an actual Klei guide for new players. I don't know the answer. If you think the upvote/downvote system is wrong, then I'm with you - I had the same reservations as you've all voiced. I said so clearly above.

I was well aware when I wrote this that it would poke at certain individuals - and no doubt cast me in a certain light - however I assure you my interests are aimed at the good of the community - both new and old. That being said, instead of just berating me for having the balls to raise this as an issue - either tell me i'm wrong and leave, or contribute with your suggestions. After all, those who are most "triggered" by this thread are most likely the very people who are the cause of the spam in the first place. 

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I definitely agree that there are issues that result in an unfriendly environment to both new players and long time players. I don't believe this is an issue exclusive to these forums or that it's new; DS and DST have both gone through this same thing and I have seen it in virtually every community that has had a long standing community of people engaging with newer people. 

That being said, I am looking into how this can be addressed.

I disagree that downvotes will help, I think that's just replacing one problem for another; although I understand the suggestion. 

I really don't know what the best solution is; but I do think that allowing vets to engage in better ways with new players is something that we can focus on. I don't want to create a lot of new sections on the forums because that divides more people into smaller sections and kills off good conversation. 

If we can maybe tone down the arguing here in this thread I think we can perhaps discuss potential solutions. 

I think a "Hey, check out my build section" has some value for everybody involved. I

Maybe a "Help me with my base" would be good for some people who want to give advice and others who need advice, but I also feel that people will just argue about the correct advice. =)

I have also been thinking about implementing "clubs" in a way that allows people to kind of group up behind shared thoughts and ideas. For example, @Lifegrow as a streamer with followers, you could have your own section for people who want to follow what you do here on the forums and discuss among yourselves in your own sections. But I do worry about fostering elitism that way too. (generally speaking, not against you specifically)

What do you all think?

 

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1 hour ago, JoeW said:

What do you all think?

I understand not wanting to splinter the community too much, so maybe keep it short and simple on the number of categories. I fear that you will however need to hire more admins equipped with the power to relocate threads ;) 

Personally I could see a :

"Showcase your build" - paired with a sticky with a polite notice to "have a good browse of the forums before posting your build" in that polite way you Klei folks do :p That would hopefully avoid the same generic stuff getting posted constantly, and might actually get people invested in the forums a little if they see some of the discussion that often sparks from peoples designs. It would also help new players actually delve into some of the "deeper" mechanics behind ONI, and possibly get them hooked on the forums too.

"Help and tips" - paired with a sticky with some well chosen "commonly used" tips/tricks/advice for new players. Could be an official Klei-made thread, but quoting members of the community for a sense of .... well,.... community! 

"Tales from the asteroid" - for the roleplayers/story tellers out there who like to play their bases and tell a story from them.

That would do it for me quite honestly. 

As regards the "clubs" idea - I like the idea, but sadly I fear it could easily transgress into some form of separatism between folks - and there's enough bubbling animosity already when you have to tell someone they "haven't reinvented the wheel" after their 400 word post ;) 

Thanks for the input though @JoeW, it's good to know that this stuff hasn't gone unnoticed - and if the cause can be rectified, then the effects will follow.

-Life.

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2 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

I fear that you will however need to hire more admins equipped with the power to relocate threads ;) 

By the way, if you ever see a misplaced thread that I missed, feel free to send me a PM about it or just report it, the mod team will put it in its right place ASAP.

Thanks!

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35 minutes ago, ImDaMisterL said:

By the way, if you ever see a misplaced thread that I missed, feel free to send me a PM about it or just report it, the mod team will put it in its right place ASAP.

Thanks!

Sorry, that could be construed that I was calling you all slackers - I wasnt :D

I merely meant you might have a few more to relocate if we do get more categories :? Peoples is lazy, innit.

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On 2/16/2018 at 8:03 PM, JoeW said:

I have also been thinking about implementing "clubs" in a way that allows people to kind of group up behind shared thoughts and ideas.

I thought that's what sub-sections on the forum were already for.

Closest thing I see a problem is that sometimes artwork is not put in the art and lore section and it gets confusing but with a bit of nudging, I think people will know where to go.:wilson_smile:

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As a cycling visitor to the forums, I agree with some of these sentiments, and disagree with others. Sorry about the novel, but I wanted to take this seriously. There is a bolded summary near the end, if you are so inclined to skip this. 

I think clubs is a potentially toxic can of worms. By having clubs you could create in-groups and out-groups, and foster tribalism in dozens of different ways. Tuber rivalries, elite and or exclusive clubs, and all sorts of other types of clubs which will serve as a way to put walls up between sections of the community. What's more, new players joining the forums will not be in any clubs, and will be further excluded from a community that is already daunting to join. 

In my opinion, clubs would divide the community, and further increase difficulty for new players to enter and feel welcome in community where there is such a disparity in experience. And as you said JoeW, all forums, including this one, suffer from unfriendly environments. And I think clubs, like downvores, is a source of toxicity. Well intentioned, but the potential for abuse is too great to give such a powerful tool to a community which can already be unpleasant to each other and to new members. 

 

On 2/16/2018 at 8:14 PM, Lifegrow said:

and there's enough bubbling animosity already when you have to tell someone they "haven't reinvented the wheel" after their 400 word post ;)

Side note on that unpleasant to new members topic: You don't have to burst their bubble. They just discovered the wheel and reinvented it all on their own. I know from a community standpoint that most everything has been done before, but if someone discovers something cool all on their own, the answer from the community shouldn't be "Cool story bro, it's been done before." or "We've known that since before the outbreak upgrade" or "That uses ____ exploit, it's so bad." That kind of response is a common blight on this community. And that animosity is not coming from the dewy-eyed noobs here, quite the opposite. People who got this game can't possibly know the community, one they're trying to enter and be a part of, knows about it yet. Heck, they feel like they just discovered the world was round. There is no reason for the community to act the way it does towards independent discoveries and the submissions of lesser experienced players. 

On 2/15/2018 at 8:41 PM, Lifegrow said:

That being said, instead of just berating me for having the balls to raise this as an issue - either tell me i'm wrong and leave, or contribute with your suggestions. After all, those who are most "triggered" by this thread are most likely the very people who are the cause of the spam in the first place. 

I will tell you you're wrong and stay. I don't see this as an honorable balls raising move tbh, and I think your idea of spam is nonsensical. I have a lot of respect for you as a veteran of this game, and for the high level content you can put out, but your idea of spam is other people's idea of content. Someone may not have reinvented the wheel, or they may have, just to find someone else did so first. That doesn't mean its not content that belongs on this forum. And the way that you treat it, like it's spam, is one of the reasons this community is as toxic as it is. Many veterans have no respect for noobs, and in many ways, eachother. So yes, you treating people's hard work, which they're quite proud of, like it's spam, would certainly "trigger" people. 

 

 

Lets talk solutions.

From my perspective there are two problems. 

1) The way the community acts in response to things that aren't groundbreaking. 

2) Friction caused by by an inability to locate content one desires. 

 

For the first issue, that's a community problem. A vast array of individuals, of varying skill and number of hours spent playing, play this game. And new people pick it up all the time, or return after a big update. There are questions and queries and designs abound because this game has so many options of achieving the same goal via different means. Cooling, heating, farm design, waste management, almost all problems in ONI can be answered half a dozen different ways. Sadly, most of them have been explored, cataloged, and discussed by the community. Only rarely are brand new tricks and methods discovered, the recent autosweeper dropping items mechanic is a good example. It's potentially game changing because it adds a whole new element to designs of late game systems (and is generally super cool). But discoveries like that don't happen every day and fall into obscurity after they've been thoroughly discussed and utilized. But, unless someone was watching the forums, and knew enough about the game to get the implications, they would never know. So when some curious individual discovers it later and brings it to the attention of the community, in all likelihood the answer to their thread will be, "We know. This thread is pointless." or something along the lines of, "X forum goer does it better." Which, in my opinion is a pretty lame response for a community which seems to pride itself on ingenuity and creativity. 

For this, I think the greatest thing Klei could do is frame the discourse in a positive light. There will always be disagreements and discussions over the best methods, I'm not denying that. However, if the discussion was placed in a Builds/Blueprints/Share Your Designs section, I believe that will help steer the conversation in the right direction. If there is a place for people to share things they built, that they're proud of, or just think are cool, it will mitigate the responses that are unfriendly, unsupportive, and otherwise negative. To summarize, if you make a place where people can freely share what they think is cool, without fear of being shot down, then people will share their cool things (and bonus, they wont get shot down). It's about framing the discussion in positive manner, which will foster greater and more fulfilling discussion. 

 

The second issue is a very different beast, and a many headed on at that. You have new players looking for help, feedback, information, guidance, (and in some ways most importantly), approval. Whereas you also have midlevel (for lack of better term) players looking to take their play to the next level with specific build designs, techniques, tricks (exploits :P), and other interesting and cool things. And lastly you have veteran players who are pushing the boundaries of what we know, what we can do, and what ONI has to offer. The level of disparity between the desired content of these three groups is astronomical. A noob wants to know whats a bristleblossom, a midlevel player wants to know an efficient design to farming bristle blossoms, and a veteran wants to map the genome of the bristleblossom. Kidding on that last one, but not by much. For a new player, the midlevel and veteran information is unintelligible technobabble. And for a veteran, who can grow enough bristleblossoms to drown their dupes in, basic questions about how to save starving dupes is dull and repetitive. And a midlevel player, it can swing each way. What each category wants is so different, that there is little way they can all truly thrive in the meltingpot that is a general category. New players swim through jargon and the complex vernacular of some aspects of this amazing game, and vets sort through endless help threads to find hidden nuggets of information they haven't seen yet. Separating the content into categories will save all parties involved, time, stress, and feelings. 

 

Thus, I reiterate an earlier proposal: Add a Help and a Build section. I like the "Check out my build" section sentiment, but I'm floundering on finding a catchy title for the category. As well as a help section so that new players have a dedicated place to find and request information. I have already discussed the importance of framing the build section in a positive manner (Its about sharing, not about being the best), so just to touch on the importance of a help section. Giving help to new players is not for everyone, its hard and commendable. And having a dedicated place for those players who want to go the extra mile to improve the community and help out another player, would foster a welcoming and information rich area for new players to absorb skills and advice from those who came before them. And that information will be readily available for them to share with other new players, directly and indirectly, as they gain more experience with the game. Having that area, one that will be a first impression of and introduction to, the community, could make or break the experience with this community for every single new player. Not everyone will look into the forums, but those that do, it's important to treat them as if they're important, because they are. 

 

So in summary, I believe adding two new sections to the forums will improve the forums and start to answer what I see as the two problems discussed. The first section is an introductory and help area for new players to learn from the old and become acquainted not only with the intricacies of the game, but the intricacies of the community. As well as a section designed to encourage players to share their creations and reward them for doing so with a simple pat on the back, or a "Good job", instead of punishing them for submitting designs. 

 

To address two counterpoints:

1) Splitting the community in three sections (general/discussion, help, builds) will, do just that, split the community. 

This is entirely true. Veterans who aren't interested in the 10,000th question about bristleblossoms won't see it, and they wont answer it. That is no change from the current system, however, it does mean they will be able to zero-in their focus on topics that interest them, hopefully making the forums more bearable. And helpful veterans like Lifegrow will still peruse the help section and assist new players. Allowing players to focus on what interests them allows them to get to information they want quicker easier and improve their forum going experience as a result. Furthermore, changing what the categories are about would improve the quality and content being put forth. A place for help gets you good help, a place to freely share builds, gets you cool builds. Think of it like the greenhouse room. A massive sleet wheat farm gets the job done by sheer attrition, but a greenhouse improves the plants and fosters better growth. 

 

2) Framing the discussion limits the discussion. 

This is entirely false. As mentioned earlier, there are dozens of ways to approach every challenge in this game. Some are less efficient, some are more fun, and some don't actually work. However, it's sharing those approaches with the community that leads to discourse and discussion of those very topics. If the community is ill-suited to foster an environment that rewards sharing with positivity, that is what limits the discussion. If there is a place to share the less than optimal solution, then it will be discussed, and perhaps even improved with new insight and ingenuity, but as long as the community is focused on the best solution, there is only one solution and one discussion. Aiming the discussion in the right direction will help it go in the right direction, but in the end, it will be up to the players to decide how they act here. 

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