Opinion on mini pumps; and Maybe tune down dupe oxygen consumption a bit?

[Saturnus]

If the developer didn't intend for affinity flow separation to be allowed they would not have made hydrogen lighter than oxygen, or any gas for that matter. It would not make any sense at all in relation to real life physics though. But at least it would have made your point somewhat reasonable. The fact is that hydrogen in the game is lighter than oxygen and rise, just like it would in real life, which makes it possible to separate hydrogen and oxygen without the use of air filters, just like in real life.

It really is that simple. Is one gas lighter than another? Yes. Ok, is does all gases layer themselves in a similar manner? Most do, the exception being oxygen and polluted oxygen which used to but don't any more. So we can safely conclude that it is intentional than hydrogen is lighter than oxygen. 

[UristMcKerman]

1 minute ago, Saturnus said:

If the developer didn't intend for affinity flow separation to be allowed they would not have made hydrogen lighter than oxygen, or any gas for that matter. It would not make any sense at all in relation to real life physics though. But at least it would have made your point somewhat reasonable. The fact is that hydrogen in the game is lighter than oxygen and rise, just like it would in real life, which makes it possible to separate hydrogen and oxygen without the use of air filters, just like in real life.

I'm pretty sure they are talking about perfect electrolyzer setup which is indeed expoit. Not only that, but the author claims that hydrogen output is doubled that way. Going to test it today.

[Cilya]

That's why I'm fine with layout which let the gas spreading and use this separation mechanic to filter after. What I'm not fine with is layouts where the outputs are forced not to be mixed.

[asveron]

5 hours ago, Cilya said:

You consider that oxygen consumption is good as it is because you use an exploit to filter hydrogen. Some other people said that *I* was using an exploit because i let hydrogen float in my base. Removing those two exploits, you have to filter with the gas filter and pumps, and distribute the oxygen through your whole base. This is much less energy efficient. The op is right, you need a 100% of the time active pump to feed 5 dupes. I've done that for a 48 duplicant colony, it's a lot of pumps and pipes and the main expense in electricity, far above anything else.

If you think about it, it's much more interesting to have to deal with the oxygen distribution system than using those exploits. It requires careful planning to run pipes through your colony. The game is probably much more enjoyable if it is a matter of colony planning rather than a matter of copy/paste a design.

As always, don't think "it's too easy, don't make the game easier" but rather "some things can be made easier if some other are made harder". This will bring the focus on a more interesting question which is "what is fun and what is less fun ?" instead of "is the game too easy or not ?".

I use an open air system and never had any problems. Unless having big pathways for air to flow through your base is an exploit as well...

[Cilya]

I've chose then same design as you. My living areas have an airflow tile each 5 tiles and I collect the hydrogen at the top of my colony. However, some player said that it was kind of cheating since in real life, hydrogen freely floating through the base would be very explosive. So... some player don't want to use this setup either, and I understand an respect that. The thing is, I like the idea of oxygen distribution through pipes... it's just not practical nor efficient in the current state of the game.

[Saturnus]

2 hours ago, UristMcKerman said:

I'm pretty sure they are talking about perfect electrolyzer setup which is indeed expoit. Not only that, but the author claims that hydrogen output is doubled that way. Going to test it today.

It used to be but they fixed that a long time ago. I posted a bug report on it a long time ago. Sometimes previous bugs re-emerge so it might be double again. 

[PhailRaptor]

13 hours ago, Cilya said:

I chose to use another definition of exploit, which is "to use at your advantage something that was not intended by the game developer and which gives an unbalanced advantage". I do not recognize you the right to dictate me the sense of the words I use, especially when this sense is shared by a lot of people. I maintain the usage I made of the word "exploits" in this threads and in others.

Within the context of game design, which is the context in which this discussion is occurring, this makes no sense.  Within the field of game design, the term "exploit" refers to "manipulating game mechanics for purposes other than their intent".  Were it not for the fact that the devs have confirmed it is intended, the fixed temperature outputs of various buildings would be considered an exploit.  But it's not, because it is intended.

In the case of Hydrogen separation, to claim that natural diffusion of Hydrogen to the top of a given contained space is an exploit is ludicrous.  It's been a thing in the game for a very long time.  If it was not intended, it would have been changed by now.  By extension, "open" bases that naturally separate Hydrogen cannot be considered an exploit.  More enclosed setups can take on a wild variety of forms, though.  Systems that are open below for Oxygen to "fall" out, while Hydrogen rises up to be captured above, make use of the same mechanics as an "open" system.  Again, not an exploit.  However, other enclosed systems, like intentionally flooding the Electrolyzer to force the Hydrogen into a specific tile and the Oxygen to another, is most definitely an exploit.

 

If you have differing definitions, that's fine.  But to engage others in heated debates using your own definitions of established terms, and to pretend that the arguments of others are invalid because you use another definition, is....  well, troll behavior, really.

[Oozinator]

14 hours ago, Cilya said:

.. where the outputs are forced not to be mixed.

Nothing is "mixed" in ONI. ^^

[Cilya]

4 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

In the case of Hydrogen separation, to claim that natural diffusion of Hydrogen to the top of a given contained space is an exploit

I've said the contrary.

 

4 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

 Again, not an exploit.  However, other enclosed systems, like intentionally flooding the Electrolyzer to force the Hydrogen into a specific tile and the Oxygen to another, is most definitely an exploit.

I referred explicitly to this.

 

4 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

If you have differing definitions, that's fine.

From what I just read, we are using the same definition of exploit.

 

4 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

  But to engage others in heated debates using your own definitions of established terms, and to pretend that the arguments of others are invalid because you use another definition, is....  well, troll behavior, really.

I clearly made a mistake, since no one is understanding my point. People take it personally each time we are talking about exploits. It's like they are thinking using exploits is not fine... It surprising because, using exploits is clearly part of the fun of the game, and in the current state of the game, you clearly need to use exploits to be able to use the whole contents of the game. Focusing on exploits, no one is talking about the topic anymore. That's my fault.

But again, I will explain one more time what I meant. By talking about exploits, I meant that every player chose to use or not to use different aspect of the game. If they think something is an exploit, they may not use it. When you understand that, you understand that the balance in the game is very different for all players. What you find balanced may not be balanced for another player which refuses to use something he considers cheating. And I still believe this is the case for oxygen generation. And I still believe there are way to balance things such that the exploits are still usable and do not give unfair advantages over other solutions.

44 minutes ago, Oozinator said:

Nothing is "mixed" in ONI. ^^

In one cell, no. But over the surface of the electrolyzer, it is mixed.

[Oozinator]

23 minutes ago, Cilya said:

..In one cell, no. But over the surface of the electrolyzer, it is mixed.

Is a naptha doorway/airlock an exploit for you?

[Cilya]

21 minutes ago, Oozinator said:

Is a naptha doorway/airlock an exploit for you?

I don't use them if it is what you are asking

[Oozinator]

1 minute ago, Cilya said:

I don't use them if it is what you are asking

Nah, i asked " Is a naptha doorway/airlock an exploit for you? "

[Cilya]

I didn't think about it and I have no insight about it for now.

[Oozinator]

Just now, Cilya said:

I didn't think about it and I have no insight about it for now.

Here you go, some cool stuff, but "exploiting", is the question?

 

[Cilya]

It's a bit more work for me to be able to answer the question. Is it intended by the developers ? Perhaps not. It's rather odd. But developers might find it cool and might want to keep it. There are no evidences here that I know of. Does it give an unfair advantage ? Well... there are other way to do perfect airlocks, wit vacuum built by a pump between two doors. It seems more realistic, but that's not the question. It isn't hard to build either and doesn't cost much. Perhaps the naphta air lock is much better when there are a lot of people going through. But since it doesn't change the balance much... the game cannot really be argued as better without it. It's a cool thing to experiment with, so the game can be argued better with it. So, for now, I shouldn't consider it an exploit. And I really don't care. I don't use them mainly for aesthetic reasons.

[Saturnus]

1 hour ago, Cilya said:

I clearly made a mistake, since no one is understanding my point.

The confusion is that you replied where the only reference was @Oozinator's picture of a standard electrolyzer build without water separation so how were we to know that you actually talked about something that wasn't even discussed in the thread up to that point, and that you didn't mention you meant that specific circumstance.

I think that everyone can agree that using stacked liquids to separate hydrogen and oxygen outputs, and to get maximum output is exploiting game mechanics. Is it unbalancing? Not really. You can achieve the same output just using more electrolyzers and there's even no negatives involved in it. In fact, I personally find using more electrolyzers each with less than max output and spaced out a far better option. The main negative about having electrolyzers fixed at maximum output is the heat becomes more concentrated and more difficult to manage. The separation of hydrogen and oxygen can happen at any time, and doesn't have to cost any power at all, so that's not really giving you any advantage either.

The main thing is that, you should just be careful about using the word "exploit" as it implies that people are cheating or getting an unfair advantage when in this case they are really not. A stacked water separated and maximum output electrolyzer is far more difficult to build and manage in a survival game than an open hood build for example, and you're not getting any benefit in reduced power cost or less heat output so the only advantage is less space used.

[UristMcKerman]

All this is nice, but what about oxygen, abd mini-pumps?

[goboking]

On 11/20/2017 at 6:06 AM, UristMcKerman said:

At the moment of speaking mini pumps are essentially useless: they are weak, hungry, made of high-tech material which is melting at high temperature, and ugly (-10 decor for those sleek sexy pumps).

The melting is unfortunate since it means we can't place them anywhere that isn't naturally cool or climate controlled.  I disagree with the rest of your criticisms, though.  They're weak because they're only meant to consume small amounts of power to move small amounts of liquid or gas.  I will say that I wish they were available earlier in the game.  By the time they're researched and plastic production is up and running most problems a colony manager will face will have already been solved.

[trukogre]

35 minutes ago, UristMcKerman said:

All this is nice, but what about oxygen, abd mini-pumps?

Yes, what about them?  You didn't ask any questions in your original post; Saturnus quickly gave you a response that got a bunch of likes.  What more do you want?  If you took a poll about lowering oxygen consumption I'm betting it would lose big.

[clickrush]

4 hours ago, trukogre said:

Yes, what about them?  You didn't ask any questions in your original post; Saturnus quickly gave you a response that got a bunch of likes.  What more do you want?  If you took a poll about lowering oxygen consumption I'm betting it would lose big.

I fully agree with this. It is already very easy to have a sustainable base. All the problems are solved. The fun and challenge comes from making things more efficient, pretty or just from trying out other ways of doing things. Which is fine and fun. But if anything the game should be more challeging.

[Neotix]

I also don't use mini pumps because they're inefficient. They're small but space is not a problem in ONI. The biggest problem is their power consumption.

I think that that scaling them, devs should use proportion between pros and cons.

For example normal gas pump "produce" 500g/s and "consume" 4 tiles and 240kW.

So mini pump that "produce" 50g/s and "consume" 2 tiles should consume (4*240*50)/(2*500)=48kW but it consume 60kW (it's 25% more).

Mini pump to be competitive to normal pump, should use 50kW.

[zzKratoszz]

Its still better for making a vacuum. It doesn't matter if the mini pump isn't as efficient if its using less power to pump the same packet of low pressure gas.

[Lifegrow]

3 hours ago, Neotix said:

I also don't use mini pumps because they're inefficient. They're small but space is not a problem in ONI. The biggest problem is their power consumption.

I think that that scaling them, devs should use proportion between pros and cons.

For example normal gas pump "produce" 500g/s and "consume" 4 tiles and 240kW.

So mini pump that "produce" 50g/s and "consume" 2 tiles should consume (4*240*50)/(2*500)=48kW but it consume 60kW (it's 25% more).

Mini pump to be competitive to normal pump, should use 50kW.

I've never, in any of my playthroughs (and there have been many) ever considered power consumption to be a problem. Power generation is as big as you want it to be, surely?

You're arguing about a difference of 12w? I mean come on now - they're tiny and cute, and they do have some functionality within the game.

No, they aren't meant to be your main pumping solution - and yes, a standard pump and a valve can do a much more efficient job if you're only looking for a reduced flow - but seriously, what the heck is the point of this thread?

I saw less controversy when they introduced aqua tuners, tepedizers, even the new metal refinery has stirred up less reaction than this thread, and that thing's a real hog  

 

[Cilya]

When talking about pumps for building a vacuum airlock inside two doors... did someone actually make the test between a small and big pump ? Energy consumption is low when these air lock are not passed through very often. But when there are more duplicants going through, the details start to matter. For instance, I used one of these airlock for my mushroom farm, to keep carbon dioxide in and oxygen out.But there are a lot of people working in this farm, so this might be inefficient.

I believe there are two things to consider.

1. If the airlock is too small, it might no separate the two distinct atmosphere when people are going through. It might leak some gas. I'm not sure if it ever does. The smaller airlock with the small pump might leak more often.
2. The power consumption is the same when the pump takes 500g and when it take 10g. When building vacuum, the pump is taking very small packets at the maximum power consumption. The small pump is less efficient when dealing with a lot of gas. But for small packets, it is more efficient.

[BlueLance]

1 hour ago, Cilya said:

When talking about pumps for building a vacuum airlock inside two doors... did someone actually make the test between a small and big pump ? Energy consumption is low when these air lock are not passed through very often. But when there are more duplicants going through, the details start to matter. For instance, I used one of these airlock for my mushroom farm, to keep carbon dioxide in and oxygen out.But there are a lot of people working in this farm, so this might be inefficient.

I believe there are two things to consider.

1. If the airlock is too small, it might no separate the two distinct atmosphere when people are going through. It might leak some gas. I'm not sure if it ever does. The smaller airlock with the small pump might leak more often.
2. The power consumption is the same when the pump takes 500g and when it take 10g. When building vacuum, the pump is taking very small packets at the maximum power consumption. The small pump is less efficient when dealing with a lot of gas. But for small packets, it is more efficient.

I currently run a vacuum chamber using two of the large pumps, due to this my chamber is 5 tiles wide and 2 tiles high (Excluding the tile with my checkpoint) The system does not have to achieve a vacuum though, it only has to reduce the amount of gas to less than what is on either sides, so if you have 1kg of Oxygen on the left and 1kg of Co2 on the right the chamber only has to have 900g or less in it as the gas n the outside will want to come in instead of the gas on the inside making it out. 

With my system though it more or less is a vacuum and the pumps only every run for 25 seconds, During those 25 seconds though everyone who wants to go into the airlock from the safe side just queues, and everytime someone enters the airlock the timer starts again it is inefficient in that regard, If i made it that all dupes queued outside until the room was a vacuum and they all wait inside I would have to make the room sligtly bigger to accomadate the extra wait station.

I have been trying different designs though and so far the one I am using works the best in real non debug worlds where the gasses are messy as hell