KAL_9000 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I've noticed a flaw with even the best oxygen-production systems: Unless you have a steam geyser handy, they eventually run out of water for the Electrolyzers/Carbon Skimmers/Algae Terrariums/Whatever. Is there any way to keep them supplied indefinitely without a geyser? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octyabr Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Short answer: No Long answer: Kinda yes: You can purify polluted water using sand, magma/hot igneous rock, or any of the fancy purificators you can find in this forums. You can melt ice and polluted ice from the cold biomes (btw plastic presses are wonderful at that) Eventually all polluted water will be consumed, all ice melted and all magma solidified, but it will take quite a lot of time. Oh, about the Carbon Skimmers: Use slickers instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 1 hour ago, KAL_9000 said: I've noticed a flaw with even the best oxygen-production systems: Unless you have a steam geyser handy, they eventually run out of water for the Electrolyzers/Carbon Skimmers/Algae Terrariums/Whatever. Is there any way to keep them supplied indefinitely without a geyser? You don't actually need a continuous water supply. Remember that if you use lavatories instead of outhouses your dupes actually create a water surplus. There are also sustainable sources of polluted oxygen for example morbs and rot piles. And there's a few other things that actually create water. You can in fact get a full sustainable base with all the usual amenities without tapping into a single geyser of any kind, at any point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLance Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Slicksters > Oil Refinery > Natural Gas > Nat Gas Gen > Polluted Water > Boil > Clean Water > Oxygen. Thats a typical way I guess, you would consume the carbon dioxide you are producing with slicksters who in turn give you products which can give you nat gas which in turn gives you water. Or you could let the water evaporate Like Saturnus said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 OP specifically says "Indefinitely". 13 minutes ago, Saturnus said: Remember that if you use lavatories instead of outhouses your dupes actually create a water surplus. That's not very sustainable. Even if you can offgas all the dupe crap water, it's something like 6kg of polluted oxygen per cycle (one toilet visit per cycle). Oxygen consumption of average dupe is something like 60kg/cycle. Rot piles are probably not very efficient - mealwood is just 8kg per harvest and takes a while to self-harvest (manual harvest would be a big time waste here). Morbs certainly do work and can be mass produced, even on Helicona. Did anyone measure average morb output per cycle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 27 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said: OP specifically says "Indefinitely". That's not very sustainable. Even if you can offgas all the dupe crap water, it's something like 6kg of polluted oxygen per cycle (one toilet visit per cycle). Oxygen consumption of average dupe is something like 60kg/cycle. Rot piles are probably not very efficient - mealwood is just 8kg per harvest and takes a while to self-harvest (manual harvest would be a big time waste here). Morbs certainly do work and can be mass produced, even on Helicona. Did anyone measure average morb output per cycle? I meant indefinitely as well. How are rot piles not efficient exactly? They require zero energy and zero work to maintain. Just because you haven't crushed the numbers don't mean something can't work. Rot piles gas off about 850mg/s so it'll take 118 mealwood per dupe. However, if you also count the water surplus from lavatories then it's 105 mealwood per dupe. Add in 4 morbs per dupe and it's 14 mealwoods per dupe. And we haven't even begun to factor in polluted water recycled from natural gas yet. Please note that I didn't say anything about using a single cure all strategy. You can use a combination of strategies but what you're suggesting in ignoring surplus water generated from dupes, and ignoring rot pile contributions is the sure way to an unsustainable base because sustainability actually means, using your waste products constructively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Just now, Saturnus said: Just because you haven't crushed the numbers don't mean something can't work. Rot piles gas off about 850mg/s so it'll take 118 mealwood per dupe. However, if you also count the water surplus from lavatories then it's 105 mealwood per dupe. Add in 4 morbs per dupe and it's 14 mealwoods per dupe. And we haven't even begun to factor in polluted water recycled from natural gas yet. Funny that you crushed the numbers to prove me wrong, but only ended up showing that I'm right and all your problems with my post are unfounded. 100 mealwood per dupe is a ton of work, so morbs are clearly very useful no matter what you do here. And when you set up morb spawns, you may as well use morbs exclusively anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Just now, Coolthulhu said: Funny that you crushed the numbers to prove me wrong, but only ended up showing that I'm right and all your problems with my post are unfounded. 100 mealwood per dupe is a ton of work, so morbs are clearly very useful no matter what you do here. You don't need morbs. 105 mealwood is not a lot of work. In fact, it's no work at all. You said indefinite, remember? So if I only have to do a small amount of work once, and never worry about it ever again to infinity then the average amount of work over time becomes zero. Not effectively zero but actually zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLance Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Also we have not stated how many dupes we are talking about here, For my colonies which usually get up to 30 before i restart due to some reason I think if its a smaller amount of dupes there will be less extremes needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Saturnus said: So if I only have to do a small amount of work once, and never worry about it ever again to infinity then the average amount of work over time becomes zero. I totally forgot that nowadays plants don't need reseeding. Well, I guess it could work then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whispershade Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Where is all this CO2 coming from to power the oil and natural gas cycle and facilitate the power needs of the colony, I wonder. But, yes, I had also come to the conclusion of a mealwood farm for the purposes of oxygen production, through rot. But at the end of the day, it is about adding mass to the system. Whether through extracting it from a geyser or growing it from effectively nothing. I have contemplated using a mealwood farm to produce rot for pufts to fertilize mushrooms. Anyone know a reliable resource on the numbers around pufts, polluted dirt, and morb pollution production? I dont run debug so it is a hassle to test some of these things accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Whispershade said: I have contemplated using a mealwood farm to produce rot for pufts to fertilize mushrooms. Anyone know a reliable resource on the numbers around pufts, polluted dirt, and morb pollution production? I dont run debug so it is a hassle to test some of these things accurately. Is my word for it a reliable source? A puft can make 48kg/cycle (80g/s) of slime if continuously fed PO2. The rest of the figures you can find here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeidri Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Food creates mass. This mass converts to polluted dirt. Polluted dirt offgasses polluted oxygen. It's about 6g/s per tile with polluted dirt on it maximum with like 300kg per tile. Polluted oxygen can be eaten by a puft and generate polluted water. Polluted water can then be converted into purified water through various means. As time goes on, the system becomes better, because you can spread out the rot through storage containers and you get 8kg of polluted per 3-6 cycles depending on whether you harvest it or not. For air, you don't need to worry about the pufts. For water, you're somewhat limited by the rate that they convert PO2 to slime, but they're relatively easy to capture with a pneumatic door. Just keep them in the PO2 and not right against a ceiling tile and theyll constantly poop. I've been running a base using this system because I want to limit the amount of heat generated, to see if I can avoid any batteries/machinery whenever possible, and use hydrofans for cooling. It's best to spread out the polluted dirt for best sublimation. I'm getting about 70kg/cycle, but I'm still early in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whispershade Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Saturnus said: Is my word for it a reliable source? As reliable as any. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byste Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I get that rot piles are the new exciting thing but I'm still not seeing any advantage over morb farms. Morbs seem like much less work and much easier to get going. I get that they "add heat" since their gas is created at 30° C or whatever, but we all know that means nothing when you're just trapping them in abyssalite and pump all the gas to a condenser (or let it diffuse depending on your LOX build). Anywho, in response to the OP, you don't need steam geysers at all this game. You can ignore your CO2 entirely and pump it away instead of skimming it (eventually you can process it with slicksters). You don't need lavatories or showers, but if you go through the trouble of purification, lavatories create net water and showers are net 0. Oxygen can be created from polluted oxygen many ways and there are many ways of sustainably creating polluted oxygen, so you don't need electrolyzers (though they're a nice midgame solution). You don't need water for food, thanks to meal lice and mushrooms. What else are you going to use net quantities of water for?... Oil is strictly a luxury in this game, it is completely unnecessary for a self sustaining base, and you can still use the preexisting oil on the map for whatever you want + renewable oil from slicksters. You also technically have 0 need for natural gas geysers, since you can get power through other means (gerbil wheels, coal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemyG Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I mean I did manage before outbreak to last 4822 cycles on polluted water sublimation for 8 dupes before time sync issues caused them to starve in their sleep because cycle time stretched out longer and longer each day. I have been thinking about running another low/no tech base using similar means in outbreak but work's been a bit busier than usual so I haven't had the opportunity to work out the details yet. It is definitely possible to survive without additional water though. All I did in my old low tech colony with clean water was run a single co2 skimmer and dumped excess polluted water into peppernuts to void it, and eventually ran lavatories because I used all my dirt in outhouses (took about 3200 cycles). Could've just forgone bathrooms entirely of course, but now germs are a factor to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whispershade Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 1 hour ago, RemyG said: I mean I did manage before outbreak to last 4822 cycles on polluted water sublimation for 8 dupes Before outbreak, dupes didnt consume polluted oxygen when they breathed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daxterr Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Well without ANY geyser I think you're screwed. Natural gas geisers will give you lots of polluted water though which should be able to cover a few duplicants forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WanderingKid Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I don't really think you need geysers, other than perhaps for power, but even that can be worked around for a long time with coal, and I never bother trapping Hatches, they're annoying as heck. Algae to start with, a few Hydrolizers in the middle to build up some additional hydrogen and get some extra O2, replace with some of the PH2O around the map, and then eventually (many, many cycles of cooling later) Morbs + LOX system + filtering your starting water from the Lavatories/sinks/skimmers and you're fine. Sure, you might eventually run out of sand. One day. At the heat death of the universe. I'm still looking for a good use for the Chlorine Geyser besides a few hundred ore cleaners in a row (which, really... why bother...). Steam geysers are fun but currently not required except for end game food (bristle berries) for my current designs. NGG's are wonderful power supplies but I personally end up recycling the PH2O they produce into a single fert maker so I can keep 3 generators going constantly. Half the time I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of water usefully, not make more of it! Keeping the dupes alive doesn't really need them currently, and power can be worked around. If anything I currently hope to find a steam geyser near the oil wells so I don't have to worry about some kind of purifying system and can just feed geyser water into the oil wells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eloy2030 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 12 minutes ago, WanderingKid said: I don't really think you need geysers, other than perhaps for power, but even that can be worked around for a long time with coal, and I never bother trapping Hatches, they're annoying as heck. Algae to start with, a few Hydrolizers in the middle to build up some additional hydrogen and get some extra O2, replace with some of the PH2O around the map, and then eventually (many, many cycles of cooling later) Morbs + LOX system + filtering your starting water from the Lavatories/sinks/skimmers and you're fine. Sure, you might eventually run out of sand. One day. At the heat death of the universe. I'm still looking for a good use for the Chlorine Geyser besides a few hundred ore cleaners in a row (which, really... why bother...). Steam geysers are fun but currently not required except for end game food (bristle berries) for my current designs. NGG's are wonderful power supplies but I personally end up recycling the PH2O they produce into a single fert maker so I can keep 3 generators going constantly. Half the time I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of water usefully, not make more of it! Keeping the dupes alive doesn't really need them currently, and power can be worked around. If anything I currently hope to find a steam geyser near the oil wells so I don't have to worry about some kind of purifying system and can just feed geyser water into the oil wells. one aquatuner can distill 2kg of ph2o/s U can make oxygen for 16 dupes with that. But I find it more effective to just distill the po2 directly. That same 2kg/s of ph2o can sustain 20 dupes... this setup can consume (potentially) 4kg/s of ph2o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WanderingKid Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 39 minutes ago, eloy2030 said: one aquatuner can distill 2kg of ph2o/s U can make oxygen for 16 dupes with that. But I find it more effective to just distill the po2 directly. That same 2kg/s of ph2o can sustain 20 dupes... A very ridiculous, yet effective, alternative to PO2 production. Currently on cycle 87 as I wait for the LOX system to finish cooling down it's at ~280kg/tile of PO2. 9 Morbs/2 cycles after a save reload. Save/reload to taste: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eloy2030 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 26 minutes ago, WanderingKid said: A very ridiculous, yet effective, alternative to PO2 production. Currently on cycle 87 as I wait for the LOX system to finish cooling down it's at ~280kg/tile of PO2. 9 Morbs/2 cycles after a save reload. Save/reload to taste: yeah, I got yet to really experiment with morbs... but its my undestanding that they produce 15g/s. thats 6.6 morbs per dupe. thats 133.3 morbs to get the same amount of po2. I dont think I want to experience that kind of lag just yet... XD Edit: But I will eventually... o.O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WanderingKid Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, eloy2030 said: yeah, I got yet to really experiment with morbs... but its my undestanding that they produce 15g/s. thats 6.6 morbs per dupe. thats 133.3 morbs to get the same amount of po2. I dont think I want to experience that kind of lag just yet... XD They're lag free for me. They sit in one spot and explode with PO2. Now, I am experiencing standard slow downs due to expansion, atmospheres, etc... but the morbs aren't the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eloy2030 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, WanderingKid said: They're lag free for me. They sit in one spot and explode with PO2. Now, I am experiencing standard slow downs due to expansion, atmospheres, etc... but the morbs aren't the problem. thats good to know, I ll give it a try... U could also kill one of your dupes.... theyll produce morbs too... if thats still a thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WanderingKid Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, eloy2030 said: thats good to know, I ll give it a try... U could also kill one of your dupes.... theyll produce morbs too... if thats still a thing It's not. They removed murdering dupes for Morbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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