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100% Self-sustaining Bathroom and Fertilizing system


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2 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

In an established colony, clean water is infinite, polluted water is a resource and sand is a non-renewable commodity you find ways to not need.

Yeah, this system is mainly for the bathroom. Not the whole colony. But I get your point.

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Except that the inexhaustible supply of water is very hot, which tends to spread into your base if heat destroying exploits (hot water directly into electrolyzers and scrubbers) are not used.

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36 minutes ago, Sevio said:

Except that the inexhaustible supply of water is very hot, which tends to spread into your base if heat destroying exploits (hot water directly into electrolyzers and scrubbers) are not used.

Except that high-temperature electrolysis isn't an exploit, it's a real thing which should decrease the energy consumption of the machine  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_electrolysis); and there's literally no heat destroying exploit with scrubbers.  99 Celsius geyser water, per gram.  372 Kelvin * 4.179 Joules/gram = 1554.6 Joules destroyed, plus 0.3 grams of CO2, let's say at 40 Celsius.  313 Kelvin * .846 J/g * 0.3 =  79.43 , total Joules input 1634.  output: per gram of polluted water:  313 Kelvin * 6 J/g * 1 gram=  1878 Joules.  scrubbers, with the hottest possible geyser water, and with reasonably hot CO2, not only do not destroy heat with an exploit, but they actually create heat.  244 kilowatts of heat in fact, which seems to overpower the tepidizer, except that we know that heating sources like tepidizers in this game work 200 times as well as they say, so the tepidizer actually puts out 4 MW of heat.still, not too bad, for something that some people think actually destroys heat, and under the worst case scenario for heat generation, basically.   Input 10C water and it generates more like 600 kW of heat, still not as much as a tepidizer, but if you compare it to a tepidzer on a heat per power scale, it wins...and it absolutely blows away the space heater.  You can certainly say it's an exploit based on your feelings and your zest for challenge...I mean, I could say that it's an exploit to use a hammer without slamming your head with the hammer as hard as possible every 5 minutes, but I'm not likely to convince you to do that based on my feelings, right?  Personally the longer I play ONI the more I fool around with "exploits", when the game is finished and balanced I'll be totally down with worrying about exploits again, but it's just not even close right now.

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1 hour ago, Sevio said:

Except that the inexhaustible supply of water is very hot, which tends to spread into your base if heat destroying exploits (hot water directly into electrolyzers and scrubbers) are not used.

It isn't really an exploit.

How would you define "not exploit" here? How much does the player need to cool the water for it not to appear an exploit? The problem is, you can't really give a good answer here: if you say 70C for electrolyzer, then you'd have to count producing hot hydrogen for hydrogen generators as an exploit too, if you say 40C for scrubber, then feeding a scrubber hot water and reheating polluted water for pinchas would count as an exploit even when the player works against the "exploit". The problem with calling this an exploit is that the only way not to use this exploit is to not use electrolyzers and scrubbers.

And it gets worse once you realize that pre-cooling natural gas generators can be used to generate coolant (output is created at generator's temperature), lavatories create polluted water at water temperature but produce more output than take input, plants spawn at 20C and sink a lot of heat and many other such quirks of the engine.

You can classify tepidizer overheating as an exploit, because you can clearly define it: if you run a tepidizer that isn't submerged (submersion can be clearly defined, as game uses it already), that's unlike the intended usage. Such clear rules can't be made for scrubber.

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5 hours ago, Sevio said:

Except that the inexhaustible supply of water is very hot, which tends to spread into your base if heat destroying exploits (hot water directly into electrolyzers and scrubbers) are not used.

I've been working on it and this was my first experiment with drip cooling. It was working very good getting the water at the bottom to hit 32F and you can see I did create Ice in the first tier of Wheezeworts, but that only happened because I was doing a very low amount of Water. I Also created Ice burying the Pump, which was so cold it dropped it below freezing. I had to go in and dig the Ice away to fix it.

The big problem came later at about 50 Cycles later when the Wheezeworts became hot reaching 86F. I turned it off to let them cool but, it takes forever for Wheezeworts to lower in temperature at roughly -.1F a Cycle. I have a few new ideas to fix the flaws.

20170624191135_1.jpg

20170624191141_1.jpg

As for the video Part 1 of it isn't truly self-sustaining because over time the lines will become full from Dupes creating Polluted Water. A better solution is just have an output Spout to get rid of the excess Water. Also Part 2 doesn't solve the problem of the Natural Gas the Fertilizer creates.

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5 hours ago, Sevio said:

Except that the inexhaustible supply of water is very hot, which tends to spread into your base if heat destroying exploits (hot water directly into electrolyzers and scrubbers) are not used.

My intention was not to demean your accomplishment regarding your steamer/heat exchanger. I am sympathetic to the goal of energy symmetry that appeared to drive your design ideas. And I definitely learned some things to take away from that thread that will probably be useful in ONI projects going forward. But strictly speaking if we're going to talk about exploits, as alluded to above using the tepidizer, it was probably not intended for such use and is probably in the realm you carved out for exploit. The the unique tendency of ONI fluids resulting in the scheme of mechanical separation might also fall under this category. But it is not wrong to say you work with the tools you have if you consider them in the spirit of the game.

Considering how water geysers exist in relative abundance and that I very much doubt they are intended as a trick to get people to cook their base without alternative, I am going to say going forward their use is intended and that using that inexhaustible source of water is probably going to remain.

Though, outside early game microbe mushers and later Co2 Air scrubbers, clean water is a luxury and not a necessity. It is probably possible to survive (if in a stressed situation) without nearly indefinitely if you have a solution for the the Co2 (void tile and less indefinitely through freezing). If I start a new colony I might just give it a try and see if I can manage completely independent of clean water either through natural sources or filtration/purification after cycle 80.

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10 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

How would you define "not exploit" here? How much does the player need to cool the water for it not to appear an exploit? The problem is, you can't really give a good answer here: if you say 70C for electrolyzer, then you'd have to count producing hot hydrogen for hydrogen generators as an exploit too, if you say 40C for scrubber, then feeding a scrubber hot water and reheating polluted water for pinchas would count as an exploit even when the player works against the "exploit". The problem with calling this an exploit is that the only way not to use this exploit is to not use electrolyzers and scrubbers.

And it gets worse once you realize that pre-cooling natural gas generators can be used to generate coolant (output is created at generator's temperature), lavatories create polluted water at water temperature but produce more output than take input, plants spawn at 20C and sink a lot of heat and many other such quirks of the engine.

I chose my words a bit harshly perhaps, I didn't mean any offense to any players with that and I don't expect players to not use the tools they are given. :) Heat-destroying bugs are the better term, Even if an electrolysis process benefits from using very hot water, the products should not be cooler than the input (without moving their heat somewhere else).

Trego's analysis of the air scrubber's input and output energy is interesting (apparently even with hottest possible geyser water the output polluted water at 40C is more energetic than the input), but it doesn't account for the fact polluted water (along with all its energy) ends up destroyed easily in farms and fertilizer makers. And at 40C, it still makes for a good heat sink for thermo regulators if you're about to destroy it afterwards. I would like to see the impact of such bugs lessened a bit.

6 hours ago, Whispershade said:

My intention was not to demean your accomplishment regarding your steamer/heat exchanger. I am sympathetic to the goal of energy symmetry that appeared to drive your design ideas. And I definitely learned some things to take away from that thread that will probably be useful in ONI projects going forward. But strictly speaking if we're going to talk about exploits, as alluded to above using the tepidizer, it was probably not intended for such use and is probably in the realm you carved out for exploit. The the unique tendency of ONI fluids resulting in the scheme of mechanical separation might also fall under this category. But it is not wrong to say you work with the tools you have if you consider them in the spirit of the game.

Considering how water geysers exist in relative abundance and that I very much doubt they are intended as a trick to get people to cook their base without alternative, I am going to say going forward their use is intended and that using that inexhaustible source of water is probably going to remain.

Though, outside early game microbe mushers and later Co2 Air scrubbers, clean water is a luxury and not a necessity. It is probably possible to survive (if in a stressed situation) without nearly indefinitely if you have a solution for the the Co2 (void tile and less indefinitely through freezing). If I start a new colony I might just give it a try and see if I can manage completely independent of clean water either through natural sources or filtration/purification after cycle 80.

I do agree the tepidizer as it is right now is a bit of an exploit, the impact of which I do feel is lessened by doing most of the heating work with regulators beforehand in my designs. I don't mind using it too much on the whole because with all the materials and their different phases already in the game, I expect they will add proper machines to deal with much higher heat levels (including boiling water, refining metals) in some future update and at that point I would certainly welcome the tepidizer exploit being fixed. The use of mechanical separation to make very compact water/pollutedwater heat exchangers is a bit weird too, I think the concept could still work with tiles as separation and wire bridges though.

If you look at the design of Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together, there are often multiple ways of solving a problem, each with their own benefits and downsides. In particular, very few, if any resources in that game have no downsides at all, encouraging diversity for more reliability. I think it would be proper that a Steam geyser's downside is that overusing it can cause heat problems. A renewable way to get sand for the Water Purifier could be an alternative, adding machines that let you boil water and exchange heat could be another.

If you do start a waterless colony I look forward to your findings. :)

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3 hours ago, Sevio said:

Heat-destroying bugs are the better term

"Bug" is also a wrong word here. In the code, the temperature of output is clearly, unambiguously set.

Bugs are unintended. Set temperature may be a simplification, but it is obviously the expected behavior of the code.

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7 hours ago, Sevio said:

I do agree the tepidizer as it is right now is a bit of an exploit, the impact of which I do feel is lessened by doing most of the heating work with regulators beforehand in my designs.

Not to belabor the point here or try to say you are having fun wrong but from my perspective, specifically, this quote is exactly backwards. The exploit regarding tepidizer is tricking it to produce steam without also over heating the device. The prepatory work of warming the water with regulators is precisely the intended function of the tepidizer. If Klei had intentions for us to make steam from polluted water with the tepidizer, space heater or other device then they could have easily increased their over heat threshold by 25-50kelvin and removed thermal cutoff and other restrictions.

Now I am not saying you are doing anything wrong. This period of development is precisely to push expectations on what is possible to find where the game breaks and potentially new areas where Klei wants to encourage or discouraged. And state change mechanics is clearly an intended part of the game, they may feel they have more work in this area before they give us a more complete set of tools.

 

On the flipside geysers are definitely intended to be used. And the static outputs may be an intended temporary measure before they have more tools to provide us for better thermal management. They are intentional at the very least and not a bug.

Edit: I unintendly over used the word family around intent. I intend this to be an apology for such unintended attention to intention.

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3 hours ago, Whispershade said:

 If Klei had intentions for us to make steam from polluted water with the tepidizer, space heater or other device then they could have easily increased their over heat threshold by 25-50kelvin and removed thermal cutoff and other restrictions.

 

The problem as I see it is that turning water into steam is such a natural and common thing that we expect that the game would have a trivially easy way to do it.  We can cool things down enough to produce liquid oxygen but there is no simple way to make a tea kettle.  :)

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3 hours ago, azmod2000 said:

The problem as I see it is that turning water into steam is such a natural and common thing that we expect that the game would have a trivially easy way to do it.  We can cool things down enough to produce liquid oxygen but there is no simple way to make a tea kettle.  :)

I have no doubt boiler and smelter technologies will be among eventual research paths available in the future. The game lacks active resource progression but there is clearly the makings of one.

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So since the tepidizer isn't intended for use as a boiler, what is its expected use case? I've never looked at a lake of water or polluted water and thought: "Gosh, I really would like to heat this lake up just a little bit." The only thing I can think of is a liquid heating system for pincha peppers, but there's good alternatives for that like the Space Heater that seem more suited for it.

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The machines in this game all have pretty ridiculously low overheat temperatures for their intended purposes.  Natural gas generators and electrolyzers that overheat at 75 degrees Celsius by default?  Typical car engines run at around 94 degrees Celsius.  Commercially available natural gas generators have exhaust temperatures above 180 degrees Celsius and some of the generators used in natural gas power plants have fuel temperatures above 1200 degrees Celsius (though they have to have special cooling to keep the metals from melting).  I feel like the machines need a rework.  Probably to balance higher temperature tolerance they should also produce more heat so that overheating doesn't just become irrelevant.

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@Skull Please don't take this the wrong way, and I mean literally no offence by this - however might I suggest you go back and do some reading on the forums? There's an awful lot of information on here - some of which is fundamental in understanding/exercising the mechanics of this game - i.e. correct methods for piping, correct/practical usage of bridges, water mechanics, gas behaviours, etc etc.

I'd also recommend going and watching some people play live, either on twitch or youtube - and have a look at what people are already doing with the game, and the way they deal with/avoid the basic fundamentals.

On 27/06/2017 at 8:54 PM, Skull said:

Yeah, because running out of sand is really common.....

Had you played since the earlier releases, you'd know this was previously a very real problem - one that we were willing to dig to lava, or build vast battery/generator rooms to solve. Since the introduction of "Sand bubbles" (as i've now decided they're called! :D ) sand is much more plentiful - however still very much finite (in large amounts anyway) without a vast "cooking" set up to create more.

On 27/06/2017 at 9:05 PM, Whispershade said:

In an established colony, clean water is infinite, polluted water is a resource and sand is a non-renewable commodity you find ways to not need.

This is pretty much bob on the money. I currently throw away pure water with toilets/showers, just to create natural gas with my fertilizer makers - as do a lot of this community. My current streaming base has 80 fertilizer makers powering 32 natural gas generators (there are a few geysers in the mix too before you maths boffins chime in :D ) .

The point i'm trying to make is this - this is a community of tinkerers, tweakerers, and matherers... It doesn't pay to claim to have reinvented the wheel with a very basic concept that's been a standard part of most peoples play for a long time now. Claiming something is a "100% Self-sustaining Bathroom and Fertilizing system" without any idea of what that statement even means, is probably not the best way to get a positive reaction from the community.

Other than that, I like your fonts - i'm a big fan of the ice cream smashing lady at 1.16 , and best of luck to you growing with the game :)

-Life
P.s. feel free to give me a shout if you want pointing towards a few top notch threads - i'd recommend keeping an eye our for anything @Kasuha or @Risu have to say - if you can get past their blunt, literal tones you'll learn a lot! :p 

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