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What kind of a drawback would the community want for Willow?


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Bwahaha.  And, of course, since I'm a Simmer, I immediately flashed on when you actually freeze solid in the snow and fall over, CLUNK, and another Sim has to come by with a magic hair-dryer from out of hammerspace, and thaw your frozen ass!   (They do this autonomously IF they're close enough to see you.)  If this happens when you're ALONE, though...good luck.

(And yes, this has happened to me.  Both ways.  By the way, I'm specifically talking about Sims 2--don't know how it works in 3 and 4 yet.  But in 2?  Yep.  Hair-dryer.  Funniest thing ever.  : P)

...Notorious

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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before since I am lazy:How about Bernie gives a Sanity boost, since it is a, no, HER Child Toy or a Insanity boost because it is freaking haunted, but it needs to be alive to give a boost, so when Willow is insane she should either take the risk of standing next to the bear which may be next to the Shadow Creature. It's a bit of a Half/Half thing if the Creature were to be like: (Used Spoiler cause it may give potential brain damage if you hate very bad set out stories)

Spoiler

 

"HEY YOU!"

Willow: "ME????"

"YEAH!"
"I SEE THIS STUPID BEAR YOU HAVE, IT WON'T HURT ME SO I'MA COME FOR YOU!!!!"

Willow: "Well, I, um, THIS BEAR HELPS ME BE SANE SO I CAN GET AWAY FROM YOU, YOU MEANIE!"

"DO THAT AND I WILL FREAKING EAT YOU!"

Willow: "KAY LETS GO MATE C'MON KILL ME!"

 

 

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5 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

Wow, that's even WORSE.  How are you supposed to do _anything_ to get UNinsane when you can't even move?

(I seriously goddamn hate that freezing thing.  Stupid shadow monsters not letting me put down a fire, grumble grumble...)

...Notorious

It might not be as bad if she's just more vulnerable to freezing in general, although you do have a point.

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On 6.03.2017 at 10:22 PM, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

1) Bring her "lights things on fire when nervous" or even expand on that (e.g. lighting things on fire when losing a lot of sanity even if insane in some form, lighting fires when she's about to be attacked by charlie occasionally or every time).

As other people mentioned earlier this is a really bad idea. First - other players wouldn't want her in base; second - this opens many options for griefing (like: this fire isn't my fault - honest).

On 6.03.2017 at 10:22 PM, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

2) Make her more vulnerable to freezing in general, but make her much more resilient, if not immune, to heat.

I would propose (as other people did) that she DOESN'T freeze when insane.

She would be just more vulnerable to cold weather; but more resilient to hot temperature.

On 6.03.2017 at 10:47 PM, thistownneedsguns said:

i think her lighter could get a buff.. its nice to cook things but you don't need it later, just the first days. 

i would like to see that the lighter spends more light when she is using it.. so she doesn't even need to craft a lantern instead. 

In my opinion she should get her lighter back from DS.

Infinite use, but small light radius. This is nothing great really, but at least could be useful sometimes.

On 6.03.2017 at 11:20 PM, Tumalu said:

Bernie could also be more interesting if it just activated when nightmares popped up instead of requiring insanity, so that it was more helpful in the ruins where nightmares show up regardless of circumstance.

Very good idea.

On 6.03.2017 at 11:20 PM, Tumalu said:

I think Bernie's existence to help with fighting nightmares could be more interesting if Willow was a more insanity-based character somehow. She already sorta is, but more perks when being insane could be neat- or some sort of ability that drains her sanity to use? (Some kind of lighter attack? Light nightmare fuel on fire with it?)

This could be really a fun perk... or not. Depends on how it would be made...

On 6.03.2017 at 11:34 PM, Arlesienne said:

- Bernie and the lighter are rich in lore, dating back to Willow's orphanage and asylum life. They stay. Can Bernie trot after her a la Abigail to avoid taking up the slot?

This should be implemented :)

On 7.03.2017 at 4:43 AM, ShadowDuelist said:

She could also get 20% more damage from freezing or cold related sources, forcing Willow players to be more careful/wiser around deerclops or klaus.

This is also a good idea.

On 7.03.2017 at 4:52 AM, CaptainChaotica said:

Somewhat faster to freeze _from weather_, not insanity.

As I wrote above - my thoughts exactly :)

On 7.03.2017 at 4:52 AM, CaptainChaotica said:

Also whenever she has to turn on a fling-o-matic she should lose, like, 5 sanity.  Because she HATES those things!  : P

Hahaha this would be a nice little touch :D

On 7.03.2017 at 5:19 AM, KoreanWaffles said:

Since she is a pyromaniac, what if she started to lose sanity for not being around fire? (I mean, isn't that the reason she spontaneously lights fires under her feet in single player; it's a comfort to maintain her sanity?) The longer she is away from fire, the more sanity she will drain. This will give players an incentive to use her sanity from fire perk, and it fits well into her character.

Really good idea. I think that more emphasis should be put on her (in)sanity. So I agree with 100% on what you wrote above.

EDIT:

Ohh and I forgot the most important thing - she should be completely immune to fire (like in single DS).

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On 2017-03-08 at 3:45 AM, CaptainChaotica said:

Wow, that's even WORSE.  How are you supposed to do _anything_ to get UNinsane when you can't even move?

(I seriously goddamn hate that freezing thing.  Stupid shadow monsters not letting me put down a fire, grumble grumble...)

...Notorious

Indeed. This is neither fun, nor well thought through. As a matter of fact, it's a really crummy design, putting it bluntly. I really hope Klei realizes this. Willow is simply unable to explore the ruins on her own, regardless of the amount of preparation. This is because going there relies on being able to alternate your sanity in a hostile environment. You won't be able to do anything without losing control and dying. This is not a drawback. This is flawed design.

No other character has such a crippling problem. All the other characters have their own different perks and drawbacks that can be helpful or has to be remedied using different items or game mechanics. Willow's situation is different and sad: no preparation, items or mechanics will make her viable on her own when you need to juggle your sanity (for longer than a few moments).

Personally I would like to see her lighter get more elabore uses. Maybe it could run out of fuel without breaking, or you could upgrade it in tiers (that could break back into the previous tier when running out of fuel, except for the first one), or something. Perhaps let Willow get resistance to overheating, or a speedboost when warm. Anything goes.

The deal breaking issue, however, is the low sanity freezing. Do something about this before changing anything else. No amount of buffs can offset this. Every character should be viable in a single-player session, even if playing some of them would proove a greater challenge. Willow in her current state is not viable in a big part of the normal (challenging) gameplay.

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1 hour ago, Captain_Rage said:

Personally I would like to see her lighter get more elabore uses. Maybe it could run out of fuel without breaking, or you could upgrade it in tiers (that could break back into the previous tier when running out of fuel, except for the first one), or something. Perhaps let Willow get resistance to overheating, or a speedboost when warm. Anything goes.

Bravo to the whole post...this part, especially, is really cool.  The idea of an upgradeable thing that "breaks" back into a lower tier is...kind of interesting!  I can't think of many other games (or any, at the moment) that do something like that.  Also, yes to things not disappearing in general when they run out of fuel.  When your car runs out of gas suddenly on the highway, or a gun runs out of bullets, it doesn't just blip into nothingness!

Also yes to the some resistance to overheating.  I always thought it was kind of odd that she was immune to fire (to begin with) but could be hurt by heat.  I guess if you wanted you could justify it with ideas like the summer heat doesn't have the mesmerizing _beauty_ of the flames, so it doesn't work with her insane...whatever, but if she wants to cheer up in the summer, she should just look up at the sun!  (Preferably not directly.)  After all, she even _calls_ it a "great big ball of fire in the sky"!  Okay, okay, yeah:  When she's insane she can be cooler in the summer but that is QUITE the price...

As someone who often does end up playing alone--and as someone whose Don't Starve universe education started with _singleplayer_--Willow's changes in Together came as a REAL shock.  The super-fun-to-play maniac who once saved herself when caught unexpectedly by winter by SETTING A WHOLE FOREST ON FIRE* and who made most of my first big milestones...was suddenly almost impossible to play at all.  Sure, I could take her new disabiities as a challenge, but..it's the kind of challenge I find annoying rather than interesting.  When it's early winter, you're completely bonkers and freezing because of it, and a treeguard AND shadow creatures are chasing you so you can't even put a fire down...that's not fun.  That's frustrating! 

Also, with an infinite lighter again, I can _and will_ always have a light on hand to guide not only myself...but others.  If you find yourself in the dark on my server and I'm close enough, you're guaranteed of just enough light to stave off Charlie.  (If not more.  I _always_ carry campfire materials on me too.)  Maybe jerks can use it for infinite griefing--which can be done with an ordinary torch 'cos ONE thing lit in the wrong place can set off the _whole_ camp--but for a _nice_ player it is--literally--a light that never goes out.  :)

I get _why_ she was changed; it's the HOW that needs some work.

...Notorious

*And yes, I actually did this.  The next morning dawned blue, I was like "Oh, BLEEP, I left my winter gear at home!", there was a _huge_ forest that covered like two-thirds of the way back from where I was to my base, and...yep.  To be fair she didn't actually burn down the _whole_ forest; just the middle part. There was still a surprising amount left.  : P

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Buffing her lighter back to it's original form would simply make her the first target in PvP. Which really shouldn't be what the game revolves around at all. My friend had a good idea for Willow's lighter, being that if it's in a Willow's hands, it won't break. Ever. If a Wilson picked it up, it will lose durability as normal.

But her freezing issue should be negated by something like Scalemail. Honestly, Scalemail should be a Winter item in general, as it's made from a creature of fire.

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Just now, StarmanNess said:

Buffing her lighter back to it's original form would simply make her the first target in PvP. Which really shouldn't be what the game revolves around at all. My friend had a good idea for Willow's lighter, being that unless it's in a Willow's hands, it won't break. Ever. If a Wilson picked it up, it will lose durability as normal.

But her freezing issue should be negated by something like Scalemail. Honestly, Scalemail should be a Winter item in general, as it's made from a creature of fire.

Scalemail warming you up... Me likes! I don't think PvP is the focus of the game, and honestly, it's just a rather half-baked afterthought, however scalemail as a warmth item would be fun and in-tune with DST "logic".

3 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

Indeed. This is neither fun, nor well thought through. As a matter of fact, it's a really crummy design, putting it bluntly. I really hope Klei realizes this. Willow is simply unable to explore the ruins on her own, regardless of the amount of preparation. This is because going there relies on being able to alternate your sanity in a hostile environment. You won't be able to do anything without losing control and dying. This is not a drawback. This is flawed design.

No other character has such a crippling problem. All the other characters have their own different perks and drawbacks that can be helpful or has to be remedied using different items or game mechanics. Willow's situation is different and sad: no preparation, items or mechanics will make her viable on her own when you need to juggle your sanity (for longer than a few moments).

Personally I would like to see her lighter get more elabore uses. Maybe it could run out of fuel without breaking, or you could upgrade it in tiers (that could break back into the previous tier when running out of fuel, except for the first one), or something. Perhaps let Willow get resistance to overheating, or a speedboost when warm. Anything goes.

The deal breaking issue, however, is the low sanity freezing. Do something about this before changing anything else. No amount of buffs can offset this. Every character should be viable in a single-player session, even if playing some of them would proove a greater challenge. Willow in her current state is not viable in a big part of the normal (challenging) gameplay.

maxresdefault.jpg

Personally I don't have issues exploring the caves as Willow (the multiplayer version, I've yet to see her spelunking in singleplayer). She has a very powerful perk there - nightmare lights. Building a base in the ruins and using nightmare fuel to sustain the lights while gaining sanity is impressive. But, of course, the strength of her freezing now could use more love.

I like the idea of refuelling the lighter (maybe only Willow could do it?), maybe a slightly bigger light radius. I don't want an infinite one, because after playing the singleplayer version, I consider it OP as you can't die to Charlie with it. Making it slip from other characters' hands a la Lucy and any torch turning into it like any axe Woodie uses will eventually turn into Lucy... I don't like the sound of it. But yes, the ability to refuel the lighter, thus not requiring the picking of flowers (bees!), would be nice.

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Eh, infinite lighter isn't very impressive considering how much -worse- it is than a torch. "You can't die to Charlie!" You -really- shouldn't be dying to Charlie anyway, torches are mega cheap, if anything lighter is a liability for death by running into things you didn't expect to be there. Lureplant spawned while you were away? You'll run directly into all the eyeplants without armor on before you realize. It's happened to me. Visibility is almost nonexistent.

IMO spawning a fire right before Charlie would have attacked you (Willow before "Strange New Powers") was notably more useful than her lighter's ever been. If it was infinite I'd still probably not want to bother using an inventory space on it unless I think I might -actually- need to cook something on my next trip out.

It really needs a buff that makes it actually not awful. Cooking was an alright improvement but, you moooostly only eat crockpot food once you have one to use. More light radius (even if still less than Torches) plus either something like not running out when Willow uses it, or a cheap refuel item would be a basic "Well, it's not garbage now at least", and the fact that Willow can make them for the team would help it be relevant. But really, instead, it'd be better gaining some ACTUAL decent ability for Willow with it. Some kinda improved fire attack? Or a special Ignite ability that's useful in some way?

Either make it something that's desirable for crafting for the team to use, or an actually useful character specific item for Willow.

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1 minute ago, Tumalu said:

Eh, infinite lighter isn't very impressive considering how much -worse- it is than a torch. "You can't die to Charlie!" You -really- shouldn't be dying to Charlie anyway, torches are mega cheap, if anything lighter is a liability for death by running into things you didn't expect to be there. Lureplant spawned while you were away? You'll run directly into all the eyeplants without armor on before you realize. It's happened to me. Visibility is almost nonexistent.

IMO spawning a fire right before Charlie would have attacked you (Willow before "Strange New Powers") was notably more useful than her lighter's ever been. If it was infinite I'd still probably not want to bother using an inventory space on it unless I think I might -actually- need to cook something on my next trip out.

It really needs a buff that makes it actually not awful. Cooking was an alright improvement but, you moooostly only eat crockpot food once you have one to use. More light radius (even if still less than Torches) plus either something like not running out when Willow uses it, or a cheap refuel item would be a basic "Well, it's not garbage now at least", and the fact that Willow can make them for the team would help it be relevant. But really, instead, it'd be better gaining some ACTUAL decent ability for Willow with it. Some kinda improved fire attack? Or a special Ignite ability that's useful in some way?

Either make it something that's desirable for crafting for the team to use, or an actually useful character specific item for Willow.

New players will still die to Charlie. More experienced people can have their torch or campfire be snuffed too. Having an infinite lighter takes away the bit of primeval fear of darkness. Although that's my own opinion.

I agree with making it refuellable and possibly lighting up more (if you're Willow?). I know there's a mod which has Willow wield fire spells of sorts... That could be too much and I haven't had a chance to try it out about it since it's written mostly in kanji. Still, intriguing.

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Perhaps for a better grasp we should look at the perks from a perspective of how the perks should really be structured?

So, you have perks, that includes buffs/advantages and nerfs/drawbacks. Typically, for most characters, their perks are squeezed into three attributes that are described at the selection screen. In single player, Willow (at least now, that image is from before "Strange New Powers" update) follows this exact pattern:

* Immune to fire damage (buff/advantage)

* Has a sweet lighter (buff/advantage)

* Lights fires when nervous (nerf_disadvantage)

However, when it comes to multiplayer, we get a whole new axis; we have both buffs/advantages and nerfs/disadvantages for the player itself as well as in relation to others, or at least in theory. Some perks may fall under the category of multiple one of those, so something that may be a perk individually might be a perk collectively or whatever other combination. For a character to be "useful", they need to have collective perks. Fire immunity for Willow would be an individual perk and not a collective one, whilst Bernie would be a collective one (although he's not too useful other than a distraction right now and the way he's executed, with anybody being able to use him, makes Willow players undesirable, where you just want the bear and not the player character to help you out).

Her lighting things on fire is a huge collective disadvantage/nerf although may be an individual disadvantage depending on how you play. Freezing whilst insane, on the other hand, is a huge individual disadvantage. The former would make her hated by players who play other characters and the latter would make her hated by those who would like to play as her. The whole thing about her being more vulnerable to freezing in general might be the better idea here, as it doesn't make it a huge disadvantage individually nor does it have any real effect collectively.

Hmmm... may be, if all/most/a lot of other characters gained collective disadvantages, the whole setting things on fire Willow thing might not be that problematic? Probably not, considering the griefing-pretend thing, and even if fire-griefing was made impossible generally speaking, Willow with her fire thing would actually become the go-to for griefers...

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9 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

However, when it comes to multiplayer, we get a whole new axis; we have both buffs/advantages and nerfs/disadvantages for the player itself as well as in relation to others, or at least in theory. Some perks may fall under the category of multiple one of those, so something that may be a perk individually might be a perk collectively or whatever other combination. For a character to be "useful", they need to have collective perks. Fire immunity for Willow would be an individual perk and not a collective one, whilst Bernie would be a collective one (although he's not too useful other than a distraction right now and the way he's executed, with anybody being able to use him, makes Willow players undesirable, where you just want the bear and not the player character to help you out).

Her lighting things on fire is a huge collective disadvantage/nerf although may be an individual disadvantage depending on how you play. Freezing whilst insane, on the other hand, is a huge individual disadvantage. The former would make her hated by players who play other characters and the latter would make her hated by those who would like to play as her. The whole thing about her being more vulnerable to freezing in general might be the better idea here, as it doesn't make it a huge disadvantage individually nor does it have any real effect collectively.

This.

I was surprised at how useful Bernie is on public servers when you defend other people with him, but he should be able to move faster in my humble opinion, possibly trot after (a slowly descending into insanity?) Willow to avoid taking up slots. You go in the right direction with the perk analysis, I'd say, except fire immunity for a longer period can be really useful collectively when you're the one who leads a raid on the dragonfly or, less glamorously, salvages as much as possible from a flaming camp. Which, as we know, happens not only during summer.

#Willow,SaviourFromGriefers

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1 hour ago, Tumalu said:

Eh, infinite lighter isn't very impressive considering how much -worse- it is than a torch. "You can't die to Charlie!" You -really- shouldn't be dying to Charlie anyway, torches are mega cheap, if anything lighter is a liability for death by running into things you didn't expect to be there.

Exactly :)

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Well, there's one teensy way the lighter can still let you down...

...if you forget to take it with you.  : P

Seriously, the Willow mod I use that puts her back to her original self has you dropping the lighter automatically whenever you log off--or go into the caves.  Like with Chester's eyebone.  Do you even KNOW how many times I've blithely logged back in, ran around, la la la...and only realised once it was getting dark that I had left a certain something back at camp?

Well, I don't.  It's been that often.  : P

The only-infinite-when-used-by-her and only-refuleable-when-used-by-her ideas are cool, though.  I've often thought it should work that way in Together _anyway_.   Because my theory is that Willow's Strange New Power is like, wild-talent pyrokinesis, only activating under extreme emotional duress (how ELSE does she light spontaneous fires out of nowhere?  On _rock_, even?  When she's not even CARRYING a torch, lighter, or any other fire-making materials?) and she has no idea because every time it happens she's out of her gourd and doesn't remember so well the next morning, and her "lucky lighter" actually ran out of fuel YEARS ago.  And she has _no idea_. 

Then somebody who's NOT completely bonkers about fire picks it up and "Hey!  I don't know what you're talking about--this thing doesn't even work!"

So THAT, would be totally lore-appropriate--and give the character an advantage that makes her special and, well, Willow.  Fire that only lights up reliably when SHE'S using it--that would work.

...Notorious

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As JohnWatson said, willow is one of the weakest characters even with no drawbacks.

 

I thematically like her temperature and sanity interaction, but here's what I think would at least put her into the running:

1) Fire immune/innate heat insulation (bearded characters get cold insulation, this wouldn't be hard to code or to implement)

2) Lighter now has a torch radius, making it a straight upgrade from the torch.  Doesn't degrade while willow uses it.

3) She needs to burn something every few days or gets a steadily increasing sanity penalty, to encourage being a pyro.

4) No damage from hand-extinguishing fires.

5) Retain sanity gain from fire

6) Bernie doesn't take damage from shadow monsters but only functions around a willow.

 

That would put Willow more into the running in terms of usefulness.  She won't be top tier, but she can do a lot more and sucks a lot less.

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On 11.03.2017 at 9:15 AM, Toros said:

As JohnWatson said, willow is one of the weakest characters even with no drawbacks.

 

I thematically like her temperature and sanity interaction, but here's what I think would at least put her into the running:

1) Fire immune/innate heat insulation (bearded characters get cold insulation, this wouldn't be hard to code or to implement)

2) Lighter now has a torch radius, making it a straight upgrade from the torch.  Doesn't degrade while willow uses it.

3) She needs to burn something every few days or gets a steadily increasing sanity penalty, to encourage being a pyro.

4) No damage from hand-extinguishing fires.

5) Retain sanity gain from fire

6) Bernie doesn't take damage from shadow monsters but only functions around a willow.

 

That would put Willow more into the running in terms of usefulness.  She won't be top tier, but she can do a lot more and sucks a lot less.

The listings in bold are overpowered in my humble opinion. The first doesn't require you to have enough flammables for a source of light every night unless you want to cook something (actually, it does too if her lighter still cooks food), the second makes insanity even less of a threat if Bernie aggroes every shadow spawning because of your low sanity level - and it removes how Bernie is a (not very powerful, BUT!) team asset.

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3 hours ago, Arlesienne said:

The listings in bold are overpowered in my humble opinion. The first doesn't require you to have enough flammables for a source of light every night unless you want to cook something (actually, it does too if her lighter still cooks food), the second makes insanity even less of a threat if Bernie aggroes every shadow spawning because of your low sanity level - and it removes how Bernie is a (not very powerful, BUT!) team asset.

I'd be picturing that her lighter would lose durability while cooking food.  In the end though, none of that would make her overpowered because nothing in that list makes her as good as the top three characters.  Wx can get overcharged for an entire season, it used to be a year.  Bernie is currently worthless in every way, since he doesn't fight the (incredibly easy to kill) shadows being infinitely durable might make him "situationally worth using"

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4 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

Will Bernie engage the shadow creatues in the ruins? The ones that spawn regardless of the player's sanity level. I actually haven't tried if they interact with each other.

Can confirm that Bernie isn't targetted by nightmare creatures(the ruins-native shadow creatures). Not even while a nearby player is insane.

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21 hours ago, Sketched_Philo said:

What if her fire perk was introduced back into DST, but it only worked under certain conditions? So, if not near a flammable structure or is near 10 or more flammable things it wouldn't activate and she'd freeze for a while, but otherwise the fire is released? The problem is it's intention in sp was TO burnt structures, so I'm not too sure how this could then be a significant downside for her.

21 hours ago, Sketched_Philo said:

Can confirm that Bernie isn't targetted by nightmare creatures(the ruins-native shadow creatures). Not even while a nearby player is insane.

Hmm... I wonder if the ruins nightmare creatures are tagged with "shadow" in code... If not, that might be the reason why.

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It is not as though balance is to be much of a crucial concept.

 

Wickerbottom :

- Knows all tier one recipes

- Can craft special books

 

- Cannot sleep

- Less benefits from spoiled food

 

A relatively solid and interesting play of strength and weakness. Meanwhile.

 

Wigfrid :

- Saps sanity and health from enemies

- 25% damage bonus

- 25% defense bonus

- Can mass produce above average combat equipment with little cost

 

- Can only eat meat

 

Even if Monster Meatballs existed to help counter the Meatball meta, gathering meat is still exceptionally easy. And the effects of things like mushrooms and cactus are borderline meaningless, as Wigfrid is practically immune to insanity so long as she fights every while.

 

Characters should be buffed in general to align with Wigfrid, or rebalanced to align with Wickerbottom. Willow in particular is a towering beacon of meaningless. A shoddy lighter, and a bear to defend you against kite-magnet shadows. As well as a negligible sanity regeneration around fire, and un-useful resilience to fire.

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